PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

[PHOENIX PHIL]

It is unfortunate that so many members did not participate, but thank you for sharing that info.

 

[LivingTheDream]

After the recent US election as soon as someone says a vote was hijacked it usually means it didn't go their way. As hunters we are hitting the self destruct button...it almost always comes back to some type of infighting.

 

[IvW]

Just a small note. Min release period accepted by Phasa is 30 days .....

Quite rightly so.

However, how many actually stick to this minimum 30 day period, which is in any case rediculous?
Nobody regulates this and the rancher basically releases when he pleases, which in many cases is the morning they have decided to "shoot" the lion.

Ethical hunting practice is the main issue for me.

 

[IvW]

View attachment 209797 Herewith the full Resolution adopted. I need members to understand that there is obviously members pro and members against this. The majority voted for this proposal.

I unfortunately cannot elude to exact numbers and spesifics on how many of the 6000 lions in private ownership are on these apprives facilities.

I am merely trying to put information out so each member can make up his own mind about this issue. Ranch Lions in South Africa are not free roaming lions.

I will also try and post the SAPA Norms ans Standards as soon as I can get a copy.

I am not here to defend or reject anything .

I will also post our New Adopted Constitution .

So I can ask for a Lion to be released 32 days before I hunt it instead of 30 days?
Great.

I would like one released 7-8 years before thanks.

 

[peras]

After the recent US election as soon as someone says a vote was hijacked it usually means it didn't go their way. As hunters we are hitting the self destruct button...it almost always comes back to some type of infighting.

Exactly, during 2015 a certain group of individuals started with a process of trying to hijack PHASA, I will just call them the seven narcisstic dwarfs. Secret meetings were held and the next morning certain members who were hunting CBL for years woke up after suddenly seeing the light and started condemning the whole industry.
They did everything in their power to get rid of certain members who were pro CBL, even going so far as to waste PHASA money on court cases in order to expell these members.
These members did not quit membership and ran off into the sunset when things did not go their way. They stuck to membership, keeping their voting right and got a democratic change to the constitution.

 

[IvW]

no more than any animal that ive hunted.fair chase is the way my wife and i hunt,period.this picture that you print can and does also apply to any type of hunt all over the world,with any type of animal,not just lions.my question was directed toward honest,fair chase hunts,period.

That I think is the main point. Honest fair chase and ethical hunting practice is what it boils down to, irrespective of species hunted. I guess it boils down to each person's own choice and what he would consider as ethical hunting.

Many of these CBL lions are released the morning of the hunt. Main reasons being that the ranch obviously has other trophy animals on and what prevents this released lion from hunting and killing a prised 44" inch Sable roaming the same property, which then has financial implications for the rancher. The other reason is the fear that the released Lion may breach the ranch fence which in turn leads to it's own set of issues.

I have hunted CBL before and would gladly do so again but would only do so from a population that has been built up and are free roaming on said property with the ability to breed, kill and function as a pride.

The same goes for other animals not only lions.

How many game auctions sell only trophy sized male animals that certain ranchers then buy and release only males on their property for the sole purpose of being hunted.

Such put and take of animals, no matter the species, is in my opinion not hunting.

As for shooting a lion that was released the morning of the hunt, not my cup of tea and I will not partake in such practice and no matter what PHASA have to say about it is that only 5% adhere to some form of rules and the other 95% percent do not.

Each hunter has to live by his own set of ethical hunting rules and what he is happy with.

I prefer ethical walk and stalk fair chase hunting. I don't ever shoot off the back of a truck. I can go out hunting come back and have had a great hunt for the day.

I have hunted all my life and will do so until I can no more. My son and daughter also hunt with me and I instill ethical hunting practices in them. I also take out less privileged children hunting, I teach them the same ethical hunting practices as well as all the other things encountered in nature while hunting.

It is all about the experience of being out in nature, enjoying and having the privilege to share this, not the size of the trophy or that you actually shot something or not. Of course it is better if you do bag what you were hunting but in true hunting this is not always the case and that keeps us coming back.

To each his own but personally I prefer ethical fair chase hunting.

 

[IvW]

im going to keep hunting as long as i can squeeze a trigger,anybody dosent like it,tough shit.see you in hell where ill be ruling,ill take care all of you antis then.

Me and my family will also be hunting for as long as we can.

As for seeing you in HELL, enjoy your stay and time while there with the antis, we are planning to go the other way.

 

[SafariA]

So I can ask for a Lion to be released 32 days before I hunt it instead of 30 days?
Great.

I would like one released 7-8 years before thanks.

You may request. If you want to enter it in SCI recordbook the release period would be 6 months . Otherwise it would not be entered as per their ruling .

 

[IvW]

You may request. If you want to enter it in SCI recordbook the release period would be 6 months . Otherwise it would not be entered as per their ruling .

Cool, who monitors the release of the lion I selected from the catalogue and then ensures that it is the same selected lion that I actually get to hunt?

Would that be PHASA, Nature conservation or do they rely on the farmer/rancher to do that?

 

[Hank2211]

As many of you know, this is a subject I can get exercised about.

Each time the issue of captive bred lion hunting is raised, people bring up the words 'ethics' and quickly move to judge their fellow hunters. Interestingly, after they've said that they view captive bred lion hunting as unethical, they then say they aren't, in fact, judging other hunters. I have to tell you, though, that those who say that are, in fact, judging their fellow hunters.

Unless you want to argue that ethics are personal - and that's likely a losing argument (although I'm happy to go there for those of you who are bored) - then by declaring something unethical, you are applying that label to those who hold a different view or act in a manner contrary to what you say is ethical. So let's leave the "it's not personal" part out of it. It is personal.

Even if those of you who actually believe you are not judging your fellow hunters (and I am prepared to believe you believe that), you must know you are giving ammunition (pun intended) to the anti-hunters. And as has been said before, often and more articulately, anti-hunters tend not to draw a line at lions, and once they've succeeded in stopping that, they will just move on to other animals, until hunting is no more.

This thread actually brings up another issue which is new, and which I think is just as important. Democracy lives and dies by whether people are prepared to accept a result with which they disagree. As soon as you say you will only accept, or grant legitimacy, to results with which you agree, then democracy has lost. This is not the same - not even close to the same - as saying you cannot persevere in your views and your arguments - of course you can, because that too is an integral part of democracy. The vote going against you doesn't mean your views are wrong or need to be changed. But it does mean - I repeat - you cannot say that the result, which carried the day - is illegitimate. It was legitimized by a democratic vote.

In this context, I've been greatly saddened to see the response to a democratic vote by those PHASA members who cared enough about this issue to show up and actually vote. I'm even more saddened by the attempts by those who were not there, and it seems can't be bothered to see what PHASA actually did - to now decide that an organization which yesterday was the legitimate voice of South African hunters is now an illegitimate voice. PHASA has not come out in support of canned lion hunting. Not even close. Read what they have said, and what actually happened. But even if they had come out in support of canned lion hunting, there are processes to remedy what you think is a wrong decision. Democratic processes. Use them.

Those of you who have taken the position that PHASA is now illegitimate (a 'rouge' organization as one post said (fyi, that means 'red' in French; I think what you mean is 'rogue'!), including the organizations which have rushed with unseemly haste to distance themselves from PHASA, should be ashamed of yourselves and themselves. If anything will harm the long term interests of hunting, it is this type of behaviour.

Shame on you.

 

[enysse]

It's funny if people hunt sable or lion behind a fence, it's ethical dilemma but if you hunt the other plains game there are no problems............

 

[robertq]

Playing the devil here. What is the difference between CBL hunting and the raised game farms in the U.S.? High fence deer hunts with animals living on high level growth hormone diets? Live pigeons shoots? Venues where gamebirds are released and then flushed with dogs and shot? Is that hunting? I'm not talking about shooting animals up against a fence aka canned hunting but there are a LOT of these quasi hunting operations in this country, mostly in the northeast and upper midwest, and we never hear a peep about them.

Hogpatrol, the differance between the high fence hunting in the US and the high fence hunting lion, is the lion is on the endanger species list......

 

[Therack]

I’m trying to figure out why the PHASA vote matters. PHASA doesn’t have the power to make CBL legal or illegal, a property owner can still do what he wishes within the game laws of his state or country.

If The Wild Sheep Foundation and Sitka Gear decide to pull sponsorship from an organization, who cares? A foreign interest only giving money contingent on the way they want you to vote, that’s not sponsorship, that’s lobbying. You can’t let a foreign interest sway votes based on wether they will write a check or not.

 

[IvW]

The issue for me personally is not about hunting captive bred animals, but rather how it get's done by certain individuals.

You can brand anybody who voices an opinion regarding ethical hunting as an Anti and as somebody who provides antis with ammunition to use against hunting in general. This cannot be further from the truth.

Unethical hunting(let's rather call it shooting of animals) is what really gives hunting a bad name and not ethical hunting.

Like it or not ethics are personal. Each hunter decides for himself what is acceptable for him or not and by which ethical standards he will follow when he is hunting. It is however the sellers and the hunters that choose to break the law and use unethical/unlawful means to kill animals just for the sake of acquiring a trophy by whatever means possible, that give hunting a bad name and that give the antis the ammunition they need to use against us.

Some people need to wake up, there is a huge difference between hunting a kudu or a sable behind a fence that has been on the property for 8-10 years feeding and breeding avoiding predators and hunting a lion that has been hand raised in a small enclosure and fed for 6-8 years before being darted and then released and shot the same day.
If you release the same captive bred lion in a group and then allow them to mature on there own, hunt for themselves, fight for supremacy, breed and form prides and hunt the mature males of say 7 years and older it is a entirely different scenario. In my opinion anyway.

As for fences, if you want to bring that into the argument you are a fool as all hunting areas even the Kruger National park is fenced. If fences are an issue for you then hunt Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania etc. as South Africa will not be a possibility and you will then be removed from the CBL issue anyway.

Each to himself, hell shoot it in the pen it was raised in for 6-8 years if you like, even if the "rules" are followed(which according to statistics is only done by 5% of those involved) and the Lion is released 30 days before being hunted, I however would not have any part of it.

If that floats your boat go for it and contribute to the ammunition for the antis.

By the way democracy in Africa does not work most of the time.

There is also a huge difference between a democratic vote and a majority vote that is based on financial gain.

I will always support and promote hunting. Hunting is the biggest contributing factor for conservation. However it needs to be regulated and done in an ethical and acceptable way.

Please don't judge me or other ethical hunters because you have a difference of opinion, we are all entitled to our own opinions but labeling ethical hunters as being supportive of anti hunting and giving antis ammunition is a unjustified assumption..

I resigned from PHASA many years ago and at that time it had nothing to do with CBL hunting.

PHASA have no power to enforce anything, they can only expel members if they so wish. No outfitter or Professional Hunter can be forced to be a member.

Respect other hunters opinions and let's keep it ethical, it works better than democracy.

 

[rinehart0050]

As many of you know, this is a subject I can get exercised about.

Each time the issue of captive bred lion hunting is raised, people bring up the words 'ethics' and quickly move to judge their fellow hunters. Interestingly, after they've said that they view captive bred lion hunting as unethical, they then say they aren't, in fact, judging other hunters. I have to tell you, though, that those who say that are, in fact, judging their fellow hunters.

Unless you want to argue that ethics are personal - and that's likely a losing argument (although I'm happy to go there for those of you who are bored) - then by declaring something unethical, you are applying that label to those who hold a different view or act in a manner contrary to what you say is ethical. So let's leave the "it's not personal" part out of it. It is personal.

Even if those of you who actually believe you are not judging your fellow hunters (and I am prepared to believe you believe that), you must know you are giving ammunition (pun intended) to the anti-hunters. And as has been said before, often and more articulately, anti-hunters tend not to draw a line at lions, and once they've succeeded in stopping that, they will just move on to other animals, until hunting is no more.

This thread actually brings up another issue which is new, and which I think is just as important. Democracy lives and dies by whether people are prepared to accept a result with which they disagree. As soon as you say you will only accept, or grant legitimacy, to results with which you agree, then democracy has lost. This is not the same - not even close to the same - as saying you cannot persevere in your views and your arguments - of course you can, because that too is an integral part of democracy. The vote going against you doesn't mean your views are wrong or need to be changed. But it does mean - I repeat - you cannot say that the result, which carried the day - is illegitimate. It was legitimized by a democratic vote.

In this context, I've been greatly saddened to see the response to a democratic vote by those PHASA members who cared enough about this issue to show up and actually vote. I'm even more saddened by the attempts by those who were not there, and it seems can't be bothered to see what PHASA actually did - to now decide that an organization which yesterday was the legitimate voice of South African hunters is now an illegitimate voice. PHASA has not come out in support of canned lion hunting. Not even close. Read what they have said, and what actually happened. But even if they had come out in support of canned lion hunting, there are processes to remedy what you think is a wrong decision. Democratic processes. Use them.

Those of you who have taken the position that PHASA is now illegitimate (a 'rouge' organization as one post said (fyi, that means 'red' in French; I think what you mean is 'rogue'!), including the organizations which have rushed with unseemly haste to distance themselves from PHASA, should be ashamed of yourselves and themselves. If anything will harm the long term interests of hunting, it is this type of behaviour.

Shame on you.

Well put. I don't think there's anything to add.

 

[robertq]

Could someone tell me how this kind of lion hunting helps to get the lion off the ENDANGERED species list ????
The BIG thing that the anti's fuel the fire with is "IT'S ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST......"
If we can manage the lion to get off the list it's a WIN WIN for us....

 

[Hogpatrol]

Like the rest of the U.S. government, USF&W needs to butt out of other countries' business. I would go so far as to say USF&W is one government bureaucracy that needs to be defunded and/or reconstituted to address ONLY United States NATIVE fish and animals. They are totally out of control.

 

[enysse]

Could someone tell me how this kind of lion hunting helps to get the lion off the ENDANGERED species list ????
The BIG thing that the anti's fuel the fire with is "IT'S ON THE ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST......"
If we can manage the lion to get off the list it's a WIN WIN for us....

I think it's magical thinking to ever get them off the anti-hunters endangered species list. Last time I checked the human population is spiraling out of control. You can always manage wildlife but what about all the poachers and land development. I think it's very hard to impossible to turn the hands of time backwards. Going forward lion population will go downward no matter what we do............ It may be steady but we are not going to reverse the direction back to the 80's or something.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Hogpatrol, the differance between the high fence hunting in the US and the high fence hunting lion, is the lion is on the endanger species list......

Sir with all due respect, this argument doesn't hold water. Some of the animals is Texas, such as scimitar oryx, are super endangered and populations barely exist in their original home range. In fact if it wasn't for the high fence operators they might be extinct by now.

 

[SafariA]

Attached SAPA statement ....