Pet Peve: Extra fees on offers

[Hunting Sailor]

Great thread!

Several great points from many posters.
Being part of a another "luxury" industry I'm very well aware that you are inclined to not make everybody happy 100% of the time.

When it comes to the all in all it is great for many areas, for some it isn't, but I would suggest that if there are add ons that they are lumped at the bottom, as to the "package" plus all mandatory fees it would be in the region of xxx $.
I've seen this in some posts here on AH, but the outfitters here have a great way to get input of how the clients want their marketing to be seen.

When people ask what others paid for any service or product and check with others what they have paid and are unhappy because others got a better price I always think (and sometimes ask), Where they not happy when they booked/purchased the service/product? Life isn't fair and equal. Just look at the hunt for the larger trophy, lady luck sometimes smiles and sometimes not.

Guests/ clients that have paid lots of $, probably are OK, if the price is a little higher, but they get the service/small stuff, (t-shirt, soda, alcohol, airport pickup etc). The extra fiddling is usually not worth it.

Open and honest up front communication beats the wheeling and dealing at the end. Nobody likes to be "nickeled and dimed", but we all know it is a business and honest Outfitters and honest clients will continue to promote each other.
Reasonable fees added to the hunt makes sense. Pickup at whatever airport, or town that is convenient makes sense to have it included. Anything out of there to be charged. Somehow somebody is going to be charged and somebody is going get paid to supply the service, whether it is the Outfitter or another company, the client will somehow pay and that seems fair to me.
Choose @gizmo's Amarillo as the start, but if somebody wants to be helped from Atlanta with rifle imports to the US, get flights or road transfer I'm sure someone would help the client. If the client wants gizmo to do it then go ahead and charge. Pick up at Lubbock is the same scenario, but on a different scale.

A fair and honest offer and any added services for a transparent expected total amount goes a long way as a start.

Any details can(should) then be discussed to finalize the offer.

Another part is that most of the Outfitters probably prefer to be out in the bush rather than to update webpages and sit in the office.
Unfortunately that is also part of the business and having the correct marketing is worth so much. Getting the correct help with the websites and marketing is imperative. (Any web designers and digital marketeers out there? There's a market here for you).

Nobody wants to feel that they are taken advantage of, although every customer is in one way or another. It's when the small stuff comes into play that it leaves a bitter taste and the service provider lose a customer.

//Gus

 

[TTundra]

Being part of a another "luxury" industry I'm very well aware that you are inclined to not make everybody happy 100% of the time.

I think Gus stated this very well and to the point.

You will never make every potential client happy by the manner and method in which you use to build your pricing presence. I think it just boils down to who is your target customer, and aim your design and description at them. Take care of your bread and butter and by doing so, it allows for the extra $$ and experience to build the better site (in this example) to show your pricing. Still knowing, not every potential client will like how much or little you display.

 

[gizmo]

Getting the correct help with the websites and marketing is imperative. (Any web designers and digital marketeers out there? There's a market here for you).

Wow is this difficult. I'm on my fourth one of these and it's enough to make you want to rip your hair out. My current one does pretty decent work but takes for ever. Especially if he has to fix something he messed up. Months and months go by before anything gets done until I call kicking and screaming. I'd fire this one but I can't see #5 being any better. I've never seen and industry, other than airlines, who give less of a shit about customer service than your web companies. Of course they are most often ran by a bunch of tofu eating millennials who still live in their mom's basement. Makes me want to pull out my hair having to deal with it. Both my websites still need serious attention and both are still unfinished. Been trying to get the Taxidermy shop one finished for a year and the ranch one updated and overhauled for a year. Now both are just half done and all screwed up.

 

[BWH]

I have a few clients in the business that are pretty damn good. Let me know if you need info.

 

[Hank2211]

Great post Hank and you make several really valid points, especially when it comes to what one client pays versus another and that is very difficult. It's even more difficult from my end to as it is important to me to be fair across the board. This may or may not help or hurt my cause but fees can vary. As outfitters there are times when we run "specials" at discounted rates. Maybe we have an overstock of a certain animal and hypothetically I can offer 3 at x$$ this year or main season but the guy who comes in 3 months later can't get that rate. Well that's a strike while the iron is hot type deal. The first three to jump on it reaped the benefits of savings an outfitter can pass along. The others didn't get to.
Another example is I think most of us get to know people who hunt with us regularly and as a result learn what "trips a guys trigger". On a recent hunt I had a client that has wanted a certain animal for a while as he has mentioned it in passing several times. Throughout the course of business I came across an animal that I could offer at a very significant savings that no way could I offer consistently at that particular price. I could have done one of three things.
1) Offer the hunt at standard rate and make more money off the hunt.
2) offer the hunt at standard rate and not have the hunt booked and miss the opportunity to make money and not get to hunt with said client or
3) offer the hunt at a reduced rate, make money and pass savings along to a good client and friend that has had that particular species on their wish list.
I chose option 3. Maybe that's not a great business model and maybe someone may get their feelings hurt in the future over it. I certainly hope not and would hope that the second client would understand the situation and circumstances involved.
All things being equal "fair" is subjective. In all actuality fair is the place one goes to eat cotton candy and step in monkey poo.
Ethical business is what is important. I'd like to think that client #2 would fully understand that in a similar situation I'd do the same for them and I certainly do. I can't tell you the number of times I find hunts for people that I know they've been looking for and am able to offer at significant book savings. Either they can or can't take advantage of the opportunity at the time. I've actually had that happen where I was able to offer something at one time and the client understood that it was a one time deal. They weren't in a position to do the hunt but sometime later came back and hunted the same species at book price as that's all that I could do at the time. They understood that, were fully aware of the situation going in, and there was never a problem.
I'm very careful to be as "fair" as possible all the time but I have to be careful too. There are times that I've seen someone post something in passing that they would like to do and I may be able to offer that would fit them well. Then the issue comes up of is it on someone else's offer? If so the ethical thing to do imo is to shut up and not undercut another outfitter on their thread. I know I'd be pissed if someone did that to me.
Another example would be the recent Markhor thread. Several folks showed interest in hunting one but again I had to be careful. I certainly am not going to send a bunch of unsolicited pm's as not only is that wrong imo but against forum rules. So, I made a general statement that they can be hunted here in Texas at a fraction of the cost to their native land and leave it at that. I figure if someone is interested then they will contact me and we can work on putting a hunt together, otherwise it was a general "that's cool I'd like to do it" statement and they meant it as nothing more. Or even still maybe they do really want one but hunting them in Texas isn't their thing, I understand that too.

@gizmo, I agree with what you say, and of course I do understand that outfitters don't have an easy time of it. I think much of the difficulty comes from the fat that the 'product' can and does vary in cost, sometimes materially, due to a number of factors which may not be obvious to the client. And you have outlined a number of examples of those types of factors.

In my case I was annoyed because I was the good client, not Mr. New Guy, and Mr. New Guy got the deal because he asked, and then of course had to brag about it. At that point, I still won't ask for a deal, and I won't whine, but it would generally behoove you to try to do something for me to ensure I still feel we have some sort of special relationship. Without that feeling of relationship, I am just another shopper. And we all know it's way more expensive to land a new client than to bring an old one back.

I'll give you a real example, and I hope the person involved won't mind me mentioning their name. I will mention it though so you know I'm not making this up. A few years ago I was having a wonderful hunt with my son at Wintershoek Safaris (a sponsor of AH). Something had gone a bit sideways in terms of the planning, and I had agreed to a change in my plans, not because it worked for me, but because there was a bunch of money involved for the outfitter (a bunch of clients rather than me). One evening at dinner, Wiaan van der Linde, the owner of Wintershoek, who I have gotten to know over the years, sat down with me at dinner and told me there was neighbouring property that was being returned to cows, and that they taken all the buffalo off except one mean old bull which the staff had been unable to tranquilize. If I wanted to try shooting it, he could let me have it for a (small) fraction of what a buffalo bull was selling for. I accepted, and while it wasn't easy, we found him and took him. I was very grateful, and thought the offer showed why they are an outstanding outfitter. I assume it worked for all of us - the landowner, the outfitter, and me.

Be as transparent as possible, explain if necessary, and make sure people feel as if they matter.

I honestly don't care what the guy next to me paid, if I feel I got what I paid for. Some people though really care...like get angry fast care.

@LivingTheDream, I tend to be where you are, but let me give you an example in a different business, and tell me what you would do or how you would feel. As I believe I mentioned somewhere, I have an interest in a wholesale and retail liquor and fine wine business. If you are a good customer and you buy a bottle at $100, the retail price, and then you find out that someone at the dinner party where you are serving it bought it for $85 from the same store at around the same time, how would you feel? I get this a lot. When asked by a customer (many of my friends are customers) for the price of something they might drink at my house, I say "it retails for $X". The actual price they pay may well differ, depending on a whole host of factors, such as the rarity of the product, how good a customer they are, and even how long it's been since they last had a great 'deal.' I can only hope that my friends think we're being fair to them when they buy from us, but I know that from time to time other retailers will offer better deals than I can or have, and I hear about those.

 

[Nyati]

@Hank2211 , outfitters may have reasons to "personalize" hunting prices, it has happened to me, although I never asked for it.

However, I have never disclosed it, as I understand other clients might feel they are not being treated fairly.

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Hank2211 I know where you are coming from. I just saying the next time I might ask for the new guy price. I wouldn't be mad per say but I would remember.

 

[gizmo]

I have a few clients in the business that are pretty damn good. Let me know if you need info.

We may talk when you get here bro. I'm going nuts dealing with these yahoo's

 

[stug]

@gizmo my website designer has given me admin rights so that I can change info, put new pictures etc on my website. Works well when I need to change prices or add a new item.

Personally if I don't see prices on a website I move on and don't contact that company.

 

[Hank2211]

We may talk when you get here bro. I'm going nuts dealing with these yahoo's

Yahoos? You ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait 'till I get back from school!

 

[gizmo]

Yahoos? You ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait 'till I get back from school!

I'm not scared.

 

[Hunting Sailor]

@Hank2211
I just wrote and lost a long answer... :-(
It basically went: You're better off without the guy that didn't take care of you. His loss, although you may have lost some $ in the process.

//Gus

 

[markferrigno]

Good thread on a relevant topic. When I hunted in Namibia it included everything but shipment of the trophies and tips. There was no trophy "prep" or "delivery" fee when I saw outfitters charging that I looked elsewhere. How much can it possible cost to drive skins and skulls into town? Add it to the daily fee.

In Europe most outfitters were very upfront and honest with costs. Almost all hunts I did include food, lodging, cleaning/quartering of meat and trophy prep(few Euro extra to clean skulls) local license and insurance (a must in most European countries) They usually add a daily "driving" fee that you pay directly to the guide for his mileage and use of vehicle. I never had any issue with it as almost all guides were hunting club members who worked regular FT jobs and took time off to guide during the week. Plus, I always tipped them.

What I don't like here in the states is the insane tip "suggestions" as a percentage of the hunt to everyone and his brother/sister. Some places I looked it almost doubled the cost of the hunt.

 

[Hank2211]

I'm not scared.

Famous last words . . .

 

[jeff]

I looked at hunts in Namibia and SA that charged per person for pickup and drop off not per vehicle, it costs virtually the same to pick up one hunter or two, seems like padding their pocket. Another thing that I don't like is being charged a full day rate when I arrive late one evening and only a 1-2 hour drive to the lodge eat dinner and go too bed when the next day I get three meals and get to hunt all day, we still burn gas hunting and get to spend the entire day that is worth the day fee!

 

[gizmo]

I looked at hunts in Namibia and SA that charged per person for pickup and drop off not per vehicle, it costs virtually the same to pick up one hunter or two, seems like padding their pocket. Another thing that I don't like is being charged a full day rate when I arrive late one evening and only a 1-2 hour drive to the lodge eat dinner and go too bed when the next day I get three meals and get to hunt all day, we still burn gas hunting and get to spend the entire day that is worth the day fee!

Couldn't agree more. I do not charge for arrival/departure days unless I'm having to cook dinner for a large group. Sure the extra money is great but IMO that falls into bilking the client. In your scenario I wouldn't charge a day rate at all, if it were a large group and had to make a huge dinner then ya, prorate the daily rate to cover making a giant meal but a full day rate? Come on. Also per person vehicle transfer is BS too, it should be per vehicle. I get it if a guy has to rent another vehicle to transport 10 people but charging p/p is again bilking.

 

[Philip Glass]

It's apples and oranges comparing a private land RSA hunt to a government concession in say Zim . I agree with your frustration but more info is needed on some countries for everyone to understand. In Zimbabwe they are taxed on what they charge for the hunt. The government even has people get price lists from SCI et al. So if a Zim operator put everything in a package deal he would be paying the government extra tax on Government fees and taxes and Government game rangers daily fees etc. in other words paying tax on a tax! I hope you see how this would be ludicrous to do.
Now back to agreeing with your post: if I am on a private game ranch the outfitter should price in some of the things you mention like airport transfers. I mean are there many clients that rent a car and drive? I think we all need to negotiate a bit on here hunts!
Regards
Philip

 

[gizmo]

I think there are two main ways of thinking here 1) Offer good service and charge for absolutely everything and maximize profit 2) Offer the same good service but dont sweat the petty shit as certain things are a given. I subscribe to #2 and I think clients get that and appreciate it. It goes back to the free shirt/hat thing. If I am going to give a client something it is exactly that, a gift. Sure if they want extras for their best buddy at home and neighbor and neighbor's dog ya I can see charging for those which are above and beyond the original gift. I look at it that if a client is spending x# of dollars then what in the hell is a 15$ hat and shirt? If a guy cant afford to gift $15 merchandise to a client than he seriously needs to sit down and rethink his pricing to begin with.
On the same note, I dont see a problem with offering extra merchandise for sale, that is, above and beyond what you would normally gift someone. I give away hats and shirts all the time to clients that buy hunts and taxidermy all the time but I also sell hats, shirts, and various other merchandising in my shop for both companies. I think thats fine as long as its not used as a Loodt type deal where the stuff is "given" to you and later you get billed for it. That is utter BS.

 

[Mekaniks]

I look at the arrival/departure days and the daily rates just like hotel room nights. If I stayed in the room, messed up the sheets, used the bathroom etc, and the lodge has to clean my room the next day, then I expect to pay for the room.
So when I arrive on day one, that is to be the first night and so on....at the end of the trip I may have stayed 8 days but only seven nights (I hope that made sense?) I do not expect to have to pay for the 8th "day" unless that was agreed to clearly ahead of time. Same with the airport transfers. I totally understand if the outfitter charges airport pickup/drop off fees due to distance, travel time, required number of vehicles, etc... But I want that made clear upfront. Who knows I may decide to provide my own transport in a rental car or maybe even with another safari operator as another added side trip. Really it's all about transparency and knowing what the costs will be upfront.

 

[LivingTheDream]

So I talked to an outfitter, whose day rates were basically per night stayed. So he might charge the arrival day, but the departing day was not charged. This goes back to the hotel philosophy. He was clear about it up front.

@Philip Glass you are spot on Zim is a completely different animal, plus you have the game scout fee on certain DG hunts. You only pay for the days he is with you, you kill an ele on Day 1, you pay one day, Day 10 = 10 days. That fee is like 80 dollars so it can obviously impact the cost of the hunt.

I think we are a little spoiled by the US and Canada, where we do 1 or 2 animal hunts. You pay X, license, and getting there. Maybe lodging in some cases, but due to the logistics it is simply easier to add up. Going into any other country starts to add additional layers, services required, and more and more people.

I think it is the surprises that get us...thinking shipping quotes or brokerage fees, that is where most people start to get pissed with hunting Africa.