Pet Peve: Extra fees on offers

[PHOENIX PHIL]

As to the 2% gov fees as such I believe they do this just as we look at there offers I believe they have government officials looking at there advertizing as well and we all know how government wants there cut.

I'm with you though I hate to see all the little ads on's I just want a total price so I know what to budget and compair to similar outfitters. Having helped a few friends with there first time trip I have had one want a breakdown of every cost though

Good point regarding the gov't. As to the part I bolded in your post, that's the rub. Some want that level of detail, for me it's noise.

 

[Dragan N.]

Tanzania has never been shy about costs. Ive seen daily costs charged for anti poaching. Air charters as high as $6500. For a single engine plane? You are correct on the golden goose theory.

Yeah I think I remember seeing that and it was like only a 2 1/2- 3 hour flight. If you were to rent a say Cessna 206 (which would probably be well suited to this task/circumstance) in the States it would run you like 450 an hour. https://www.privatefly.com/us/private-jets/smallprop-aircraft-hire/Cessna-206

 

[gizmo]

Disclaimer: this is or my previous post is not a rant in anyway shape or form. Simply an explanation from my perspective to some of the points brought up here. I think these types of conversations are excellent to have in an open forum so everyone can see things from others perspectives. It certainly makes me a better outfitter and may help someone to understand why things are a certain way when trying to book a hunt and help me to provide better service. I am always trying to better my service and I greatly appreciate the responses and information shared in this thread. Thank you @gillettehunter for bringing this topic up!

Another thing that I like about having potential clients call me is to have the opportunity for both parties to get a feel for each other right off the bat. I can usually tell, as can a client on the other end, whether this hunt is going to be realistic or not. I am looking for a few things in that communication before we really get to talking money. Is this hunter or an observer special needs. That can always be accommodated but am I going to have to rent a handicap van to get the client to the ranch?Does this person seem ethical and honest? Dishonest unethical people are a deal breaker for me immediately, I can have and will fire a client in a heart beat if they are unwilling to follow laws and ranch rules period. It's rare but I've had to do it and politely tell them they will be better suited somewhere else and I cannot help them. The most common thing I need to determine quickly is this the "bargain basement" person who wants to try and beat me down over pricing. That's a biggie with me. I sometimes am higher than other outfitters on certain things but I am competitive on all hunts and have been cheaper on several. My company is about service and quality not bargain basement. My clients expect certain things and I will deliver. I also provide the exact same quality service no matter what the hunt is. You can book the cheapest hunt I offer or the most expensive and you will get excellent service that is second to none in both instances, that is how I do business and its non negotiable. I completely understand people wanting to get a deal but the guy who calls me because my website said I have x-animal offered for x-dollars but Joe Smith down the road offers it cheaper for this is a huge waste of mine and their time. It's also a pretty good indicator that that particular person is going to be difficult to please no matter what. I'm not trying to insult anyone with that statement but my experience has taught me that. I will quickly tell someone to contact Joe Smith then. A guided hunt is an experience, you want bargain basement pricing then you'll get bargain basement service and be disappointed. You get what you pay for.
I may be missing out on a few or possibly a lot of potential clients by not posting pricing on my website but it saves my sanity. I'm never more than a quick phone call away or shoot me an email. Another thing is someone may have had a friend who hunted with me and want to hunt but have a certain budget that they want to fall into. Being a custom outfitter it is much easier to find a hunt or make a plan that will suit their needs via a phone call as opposed to looking at published pricing and saying, "crap I cant afford that" and not calling at all. I've never had someone who has called me and really wanted to hunt, with realistic expectations, that I couldn't make it happen. I may have to extend their trip out for the next year and lock pricing in this year to make it happen but I will certainly try even if it means holding a particular animal back until next season. I've done it and will consider it on a case by case basis.

 

[gizmo]

Unfortunately for the client, costs like that are hard to absorb into the day rate unless your travel day is being charged out at full hunting day rates of over $1000 per day ( for example).

If I understand correctly that is what some folks are wanting though, myself included. I would rather see $1000/day shown as opposed to $600/day plus 2% levy on this, 3% game scout fee, 2.789423% fee for this, .034657389% fee for that.

If an outfitter lists an all in price, then people want to know the breakdown and details, yet when the details are listed and priced they want to know the all in price.
Very difficult to please everyone all the time.

Wow hit the nail on the head, I would amend that to say IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone. That's why I said as a client, I prefer to see $1000/day all fees included and if it seems high I can ask what that exactly includes.
But alas, you are exactly right. Cant please them all.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Well I think the problem here is when we see packages, and it xyz dollars all in. Then scroll down and see excludes road transfer, vat tax, license, gun importation, ammo tax, concession fee, excessive alcohol, etc. If you say all in then it's all in.

However, when I go I reach out to someone and they give me a break down, I really appreciate it, and shows exactly where everything goes and I can add it up.

To Gizmo's point their are bargain shoppers and they usually get burned and are the first to complain. I shop around for the lowest price but I usually don't go with that guy, I compare quality, services offered, and the overall experience.

I feel bad for the Tanzania guys, the government has destroyed them with all of the different fees. I hope to someday get to hunt there but would rather see the outfitter and people get that money then the government.

 

[gizmo]

el bad for the Tanzania guys, the government has destroyed them with all of the different fees. I hope to someday get to hunt there but would rather see the outfitter and people get that money then the government.

Amen to that. The gov't of Tanzania shoots itself in the foot with all the BS fees and the outfitters are stuck in the middle. I also would love to hunt there one day but sheesh, the fees will kill you and it's certainly not the outfitters fault in most cases.

 

[gizmo]

Of course VAT tax pisses me off to no end anyway. It's just one more way for gov'ts to get their greedy little pecker tongs into our pockets. We should charge the government a over usage and waste tax.

 

[CAustin]

Many great points here. It's hard to make it all apples to apples on cost. I find my self in agreement with phil....show me the bottom line as I don't need to know that $40 was for the boy who milks the cow for milk and cream for the cereal and coffee.
However, I am irked by the transfer fees. $400 to pick me up from the airport is BS. Unless you are traveling five hours each way it is plucking the client. If the outfitter can't get me to camp he can't make any money off me hunting. To me it's part of the business kind of a car repair place charging you for towels and a shop fee! WTF I say.....want my business or not! If yes come get me at the airport.

 

[gizmo]

Many great points here. It's hard to make it all apples to apples on cost. I find my self in agreement with phil....show me the bottom line as I don't need to know that $40 was for the boy who milks the cow for milk and cream for the cereal and coffee.
However, I am irked by the transfer fees. $400 to pick me up from the airport is BS. Unless you are traveling five hours each way it is plucking the client. If the outfitter can't get me to camp he can't make any money off me hunting. To me it's part of the business kind of a car repair place charging you for towels and a shop fee! WTF I say.....want my business or not! If yes come get me at the airport.

Charlie I get your point and kinda agree. For me if my clients fly into Amarillo, your right I have to head that way anyway and the airport is only slightly out of my way but on a 3 day hunt to spend 8hours drive time and fuel in a vehicle between pick up and drop off to pickup from Lubbock is not a logistically easy deal. The deal is that if it significantly cuts into the profit margin in which an outfitter needs to survive than I have absolutely no problem paying a pickup fee. Places like Zim, Zam,Moz, and Tanz most often have to charge that as the simple logistics of getting to camp is very difficult and expensive.

 

[Royal27]

. Some offers look very good initially

Although I'm the client I'm with the outfitter on this one I think. It's the outfitters job to make the offer look good initially. He has to get your interest, then keep it of course. How does he do this? By making the offer look good...

As long as I can add it all up I'm OK with the "standard" break out of charges. If it helps drive my outfitters business and helps him to make a better profit why shouldn't I like it ? Especially if it helps him compete against others. Let's face it, all businesses try and make costs look better. The hunting industry is no different.

IMHO hunt offers could be simplified by just increasing the daily rates and giving us a complete price that doesn't require us to break out a calculator for 10 items on the list.

Totally agree here, except as stated above the outfitter has to break down as is "standard " or make himself look more expensive and lose business. The one area I think has to be broken down and separated are any government fees. Remember Tanzania and the sudden fee change? I'd sure hate to be an outfitter who had rolled those fees into the daily rate. Gulp....

I sometimes feel like that we, the US hunters in particular, are looked at like the golden goose to be plucked for every dollar that can be gotten. It just flat turns me off. Go through 10-15 hunt offers and you can see what I'm talking about.

Don't disagree here either, but it is what it is. American consumers are the golden goose to the world... heck, look at how crappy we get treated by our own companies, so it sure isn't an African Outfitter phenomenon.

I think the bottom line is to make sure you add all the charges and look at the true bottom line. If it's the best value for my money I'm going. I will happily pay a road transfer to save money over all. I'm not going to save a dime and spend a dollar instead.

Great thread....

 

[wesheltonj]

My two cents. I prefer the Club Med method. I pay an "all in" price, including transfers, taxes and gratuities. Club Med plainly state the only extras are VSOP and Champagne, plus the boutique and excursions purchases. Zero surprises. My RSA hunt was all in (no surprises), except tips and of course the trophy fee, and taxidermy services (delivery to outfitters Taxidermy was included). The the trophy fee was clearly spelled out, SCI bronze and above one price and anything under one price. So the Bronze and Gold Kudu were exactly the same price, thankfully I was luck enough to harvest 57.5 for a Gold and listing in Rowland Ward.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

He has to get your interest, then keep it of course. How does he do this?

By charging you for T-shirts you didn't ask for?

 

[Brent in Az]

By charging you for T-shirts you didn't ask for?

Pink shirts?

 

[Royal27]

By charging you for T-shirts you didn't ask for?

That caused loss of interest. LOL

Great point though. I'm fine with charges being broken out, not hidden to make them look cheap and slipped in on bill. When that's done , it's bad news.

 

[cagkt3]

If I understand correctly that is what some folks are wanting though, myself included. I would rather see $1000/day shown as opposed to $600/day plus 2% levy on this, 3% game scout fee, 2.789423% fee for this, .034657389% fee for that.

@gizmo to be fair, your math does suck. If I add up all the % add-ons, I come up with a adjusted rate of $646.94, which is way cheaper that $1000.

Did I mention I'm an engineer?

 

[Hank2211]

I think we can all agree that as hunters, we want complete transparency in pricing. No one likes surprises.

Having said that, I think it's also fair to observe that outfitters have learned an important lesson of retail: buyers look at the headline number and more often than not, don't look behind it. So the lower headline number wins. This is at odds with an 'all in' number that hunters are looking for.

So the solution that many outfitters have landed on is to do as @gizmo does, and not put all of their fees online. I understand all of the reasons @gizmo and others have given for this practice, and they are valid.

So what's the problem? Well, one that I have run into is the negotiable fees issue. Have you ever sat on an airplane and wondered what the person sitting beside you paid for the same seat? I was on my third hunt with the same outfitter some years ago, and discovered that they had given 15% off the trophy fees to another hunter in camp, a first-timer, because he had asked. I had not asked, so I did not get. I didn't ask because I thought the fees were fair, and I have a view that if I treat you properly, you will do the same for me. More often than not, that works in my favour. Here, it did not, and I have not hunted with that outfitter again.

It's a fact that clients talk. I disclosed the trophy fees I paid for my most recent hunt in the hunt report - although I asked the outfitter if he was OK with that before I did it. But even if I hadn't put the fees I paid in the public hunt report, I would tell anyone who pm'ed me what I had paid.

In an age of transparency, how do outfitters keep clients happy if the trophy fees they are charging are 'personalized' and potentially vary by material amounts?

 

[gizmo]

@gizmo to be fair, your math does suck. If I add up all the % add-ons, I come up with a adjusted rate of $646.94, which is way cheaper that $1000.

Did I mention I'm an engineer?

Lol. I'm obviously not an engineer

 

[gizmo]

I think we can all agree that as hunters, we want complete transparency in pricing. No one likes surprises.

Having said that, I think it's also fair to observe that outfitters have learned an important lesson of retail: buyers look at the headline number and more often than not, don't look behind it. So the lower headline number wins. This is at odds with an 'all in' number that hunters are looking for.

So the solution that many outfitters have landed on is to do as @gizmo does, and not put all of their fees online. I understand all of the reasons @gizmo and others have given for this practice, and they are valid.

So what's the problem? Well, one that I have run into is the negotiable fees issue. Have you ever sat on an airplane and wondered what the person sitting beside you paid for the same seat? I was on my third hunt with the same outfitter some years ago, and discovered that they had given 15% off the trophy fees to another hunter in camp, a first-timer, because he had asked. I had not asked, so I did not get. I didn't ask because I thought the fees were fair, and I have a view that if I treat you properly, you will do the same for me. More often than not, that works in my favour. Here, it did not, and I have not hunted with that outfitter again.

It's a fact that clients talk. I disclosed the trophy fees I paid for my most recent hunt in the hunt report - although I asked the outfitter if he was OK with that before I did it. But even if I hadn't put the fees I paid in the public hunt report, I would tell anyone who pm'ed me what I had paid.

In an age of transparency, how do outfitters keep clients happy if the trophy fees they are charging are 'personalized' and potentially vary by material amounts?

Great post Hank and you make several really valid points, especially when it comes to what one client pays versus another and that is very difficult. It's even more difficult from my end to as it is important to me to be fair across the board. This may or may not help or hurt my cause but fees can vary. As outfitters there are times when we run "specials" at discounted rates. Maybe we have an overstock of a certain animal and hypothetically I can offer 3 at x$$ this year or main season but the guy who comes in 3 months later can't get that rate. Well that's a strike while the iron is hot type deal. The first three to jump on it reaped the benefits of savings an outfitter can pass along. The others didn't get to.
Another example is I think most of us get to know people who hunt with us regularly and as a result learn what "trips a guys trigger". On a recent hunt I had a client that has wanted a certain animal for a while as he has mentioned it in passing several times. Throughout the course of business I came across an animal that I could offer at a very significant savings that no way could I offer consistently at that particular price. I could have done one of three things.
1) Offer the hunt at standard rate and make more money off the hunt.
2) offer the hunt at standard rate and not have the hunt booked and miss the opportunity to make money and not get to hunt with said client or
3) offer the hunt at a reduced rate, make money and pass savings along to a good client and friend that has had that particular species on their wish list.
I chose option 3. Maybe that's not a great business model and maybe someone may get their feelings hurt in the future over it. I certainly hope not and would hope that the second client would understand the situation and circumstances involved.
All things being equal "fair" is subjective. In all actuality fair is the place one goes to eat cotton candy and step in monkey poo.
Ethical business is what is important. I'd like to think that client #2 would fully understand that in a similar situation I'd do the same for them and I certainly do. I can't tell you the number of times I find hunts for people that I know they've been looking for and am able to offer at significant book savings. Either they can or can't take advantage of the opportunity at the time. I've actually had that happen where I was able to offer something at one time and the client understood that it was a one time deal. They weren't in a position to do the hunt but sometime later came back and hunted the same species at book price as that's all that I could do at the time. They understood that, were fully aware of the situation going in, and there was never a problem.
I'm very careful to be as "fair" as possible all the time but I have to be careful too. There are times that I've seen someone post something in passing that they would like to do and I may be able to offer that would fit them well. Then the issue comes up of is it on someone else's offer? If so the ethical thing to do imo is to shut up and not undercut another outfitter on their thread. I know I'd be pissed if someone did that to me.
Another example would be the recent Markhor thread. Several folks showed interest in hunting one but again I had to be careful. I certainly am not going to send a bunch of unsolicited pm's as not only is that wrong imo but against forum rules. So, I made a general statement that they can be hunted here in Texas at a fraction of the cost to their native land and leave it at that. I figure if someone is interested then they will contact me and we can work on putting a hunt together, otherwise it was a general "that's cool I'd like to do it" statement and they meant it as nothing more. Or even still maybe they do really want one but hunting them in Texas isn't their thing, I understand that too.

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Hank2211 wow man I never even considered that. I honestly don't care what the guy next to me paid, if I feel I got what I paid for. Some people though really care...like get angry fast care.

It was funny I was talking with another hunter and I forget what it was about basically the outfitter got a kick back from the taxidermy or the meat or something, and he was shocked to find out I didn't care. To me thats just business. The end of the day outfitters have to make money, just went they greedy (charging for free shirts) that is when there are problems.

I think all hunters want is to get a good value from their hunt, have honesty in their quote and have everything go as sold. But I think as hunters we have a responsible not to be assholes, shit doesn't always go as planned, and to keep a good attitude. My goal with any hunt is to not be "that guy".

 

[gizmo]

@Hank2211 wow man I never even considered that. I honestly don't care what the guy next to me paid, if I feel I got what I paid for. Some people though really care...like get angry fast care.

It was funny I was talking with another hunter and I forget what it was about basically the outfitter got a kick back from the taxidermy or the meat or something, and he was shocked to find out I didn't care. To me thats just business. The end of the day outfitters have to make money, just went they greedy (charging for free shirts) that is when there are problems.

I think all hunters want is to get a good value from their hunt, have honesty in their quote and have everything go as sold. But I think as hunters we have a responsible not to be assholes, shit doesn't always go as planned, and to keep a good attitude. My goal with any hunt is to not be "that guy".

Very well said.
I think that it is crucial as outfitters for us to be honest and upfront in every aspect. You are right we have to make money otherwise we can't provide the service but that doesn't mean it's cool to bilk a client either.
It have found that the whole kickback thing can really bite someone in the ass though. That's a tough one and I've been on both ends as a client, meaning I've had it work well by using their "guy" as it's a bit more of a known and I've had it bite me as their "guy" sucks then it turns into a mess. That's absolutely where if an outfitter is going to get in bed with an outside company offering an additional service they better damn well know what's going on.