Outfitters & PH's have you ever been burned?

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I send clients home with 80k bills I ussually get paid within a week or two...

I firmly believe that I do business in an honest fashion and only do business with honest folk.

I can understand 1 to 3 weeks, but it is within every man to be responsible for his actions, and to not let a hobby get the better of you, if I was confronted with a couple of months with no payment.... Well Gerrit I would lose my sense of humor completely and as we always say my GIVE A SHITO METER would run out.

If you need help let me know.

My best always

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

If he is not talking then he brought it on himself. Different if something happen as he was asking you for more time. just not answering anymore he is crossing a line. I would at least tell others by pm so they don't book him.

Very true billc,.....and Gerrit it would be within your right to say no more time... Time is up...

I got stiffed for $30k a couple years ago by an extremely wealthy businessman man from Tx. Because he developed an issue with a camera man which he contracted... What a mess that set me back a year or two.

My best always

 

[sierraone]

So for clarification. He had the money for his daily fees but not a penny more because the rest was in his "lost" wallet which would have contained roughly thousands more, and he only discovered it was lost on the last day of his safari?! If that's the case, I'm calling in a big way B.S.!!! There's no way I'm getting off that plane without knowing where all my money is. For that matter, there's no way on multiple occasions in flight I'm not checking on where my money is.

Whatever the case, he's been home since September and no contact?

Absolutely right Phil, this story is B.S. , an 8000 mile flight, then a 7-8 day or more safari, before he knows his money is missing? Maybe when the safari operators pick clients up at the airport, they could demand they count their money there on the hood of the truck!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Absolutely right Phil, this story is B.S. , an 8000 mile flight, then a 7-8 day or more safari, before he knows his money is missing? Maybe when the safari operators pick clients up at the airport, they could demand they count their money there on the hood of the truck!

This is the exact reason why as outfitters we should stick to deposit of 50% of daily rates to book a safari, remainder of days to be paid on day of arrival and trophy fees to be paid in full before leaving camp.

I am guilty of not doing it... Think it's time for a mind shift..

Apart from that a proper deposit will make a client think twice before canceling safaris for nonsense or on short notice.

My best always

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I have no problems with listing a dead beat client in an open forum......if he has a reason for not paying, then he should be confronted....otherwise, he will just try it again.

I have no problems listing outfitters who've screwed me out of thousands by making promises that they had no intention of filling, so I see no reason why the outfitter shouldn't be able to do the same.....in the long run, it protects everyone.

. Con men can be nice guys to.

ALL con men are nice guys...........that's how their cons work.

 

[Big5]

At the end if the day the AH member is full of BS as mentioned earlier. He no doubt is a con artist at home. Name him and let him prove that he paid you.

Disappointing and disgraceful behavior. You seem to have gone the extra mile and conducted business as a gentleman. . . . . . . It's always comforting from the fairness aspect to hear both sides of an issue.

The box has already been opened. Has the situation of non-payment by an AH member been portrayed correctly? IF SO, why then is there a reluctance to name the individual for the sole purpose of hearing his/her side of things?

I don't necessarily doubt the claim that the anonymous AH member failed to pay, but perhaps he/she has something to throw in the mix other than a blatant B.S. excuse. Perhaps he/she can also offer a valid reason for why communication abruptly ceased.

As I said in an earlier post, it seems a bit hypocritical that the identity of the AH member has been offered to other 'outfitters' by way of a PM, but the rest of us are left in the dark to possibly deal with the individual in other personal or business matters. Somehow that just doesn't seem to be the way things should work.

 

[JGRaider]

I'm with the guys for "outing" this crook publicly. Public humiliation is usually earned.

I may be the dumbazz here, but his situation is exactly why I have my whole safari, with some 'buffer money" wired to the safari operator before I ever get there.....a $5000 hunt, I will have wired a total of $6500 to them a couple of weeks before I arrive, for instance. At the end of the hunt, if I've shot a couple more animals I will owe little to nothing, and maybe have enough for tips already paid.

If anyone is going to be screwed over the way I'm doing things, it will be me, not an honest outfitter. I hate liars and thieves.

 

[BRICKBURN]

JG, I can see why you might want to be very careful in your choice of outfitter.

I have always appreciated being trusted and any gesture to that end is always reciprocated with my return treatment of the outfitter.

 

[JGRaider]

I am very careful with the outfitters I choose......lots and lots of research, including this site, makes finding honest and trustworthy outfitters not such a hard task. At least it's worked so far. I have to look myself in the mirror every morning (egads.....!), and be content with the person I see. I owe a huge debt of gratitude to my parents, who raised me with ethical values.

 

[gizmo]

I'm with the guys for "outing" this crook publicly. Public humiliation is usually earned.

I may be the dumbazz here, but his situation is exactly why I have my whole safari, with some 'buffer money" wired to the safari operator before I ever get there.....a $5000 hunt, I will have wired a total of $6500 to them a couple of weeks before I arrive, for instance. At the end of the hunt, if I've shot a couple more animals I will owe little to nothing, and maybe have enough for tips already paid.

If anyone is going to be screwed over the way I'm doing things, it will be me, not an honest outfitter. I hate liars and thieves.

I agree with you whole heartedly. I sent my ph 1/3 of the hunt total for a lion/buff/pg hunt. I told him that I would, and I will mind you, wire the rest of the entire hunt cost 30 days before our arrival. Now, that being said my ph is very reputable, been in business a long time, and has become a friend. I did this because I wanted to avoid any problems that may come up and to avoid carrying large sums of cash. The only cash I will have to carry is tip money and for local shopping type stuff.
I still say call the crook out and let him explain himself. The fact that it is an AH member really chaps my ass as that is not what this site is about. Obviously the member in question is guilty as charged or he/she would have piped up by now with an explanation.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I agree with you whole heartedly. I sent my ph 1/3 of the hunt total for a lion/buff/pg hunt. I told him that I would, and I will mind you, wire the rest of the entire hunt cost 30 days before our arrival. Now, that being said my ph is very reputable, been in business a long time, and has become a friend. I did this because I wanted to avoid any problems that may come up and to avoid carrying large sums of cash. The only cash I will have to carry is tip money and for local shopping type stuff.

Regarding paying up front, that goes a long way toward establishing trust of the outfitter in you. Had you wanted to shoot anymore animals above what you paid for and hadn't cash on hand to pay, I'd be surprised if the outfitter wasn't fine with you taking them and paying after you got home. After all you'd paid him for what was planned for before you even got there.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

If I've done my math right, it's now about 7:40pm (19:40 for you 24 hour clock types) in Jo'burg. Perhaps because Gerrit has been busy today, but I've noticed no post from him since yesterday afternoon or any post from the AH member in question. Hopefully this means this thread has served its intended purpose and things are getting worked out.

 

[sierraone]

This is the exact reason why as outfitters we should stick to deposit of 50% of daily rates to book a safari, remainder of days to be paid on day of arrival and trophy fees to be paid in full before leaving camp.

I am guilty of not doing it... Think it's time for a mind shift..

Apart from that a proper deposit will make a client think twice before canceling safaris for nonsense or on short notice.
My best always[/QUOTE

Jaco, how do you and most outfitters collect the booking deposit? 1. At a show when your face to face.....cash, check, credit card.

2. When the booking is done over the internet or telephone? Pay pal, bank wire, etc.

 

[gizmo]

I agree, I just felt that was the safest and easiest way to do things. Trust is an earned thing not given. It goes hand and hand with respect.

 

[Big5]

. . . I still say call the crook out and let him explain himself. The fact that it is an AH member really chaps my ass as that is not what this site is about.

I think it is highly unlikely that members here will learn who the supposed deadbeat AH member is. The good thing is that this thread will likely aid Gerrit in recovering his loss by shaming the AH member into paying up rather than having his identity publicly exposed. The downside is that by maintaining his anonymity to everyone other than 'outfitters' he will likely carry on and do the same thing with some other unwitting individual or agency. If that's the case, too bad.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I think it is highly unlikely that members here will learn who the supposed deadbeat AH member is. The good thing is that this thread will likely aid Gerrit in recovering his loss by shaming the AH member into paying up rather than having his identity publicly exposed. The downside is that by maintaining his anonymity to everyone other than 'outfitters' he will likely carry on and do the same thing with some other unwitting individual or agency. If that's the case, too bad.

I think that likely regardless of whether or not the individual's name is revealed. In defense of Gerrit, he also needs to consider the potential for a libel suit. That sort of thing happens, no direct experience with that, but I know it does for a fact.

 

[Mekaniks]

I am all for calling out a deadbeat, and I will help fill his PM box with hate mail if he is outed. But... There is going to be some folks that will be feeling pretty silly if we find out that he had a heat attack a couple months ago and his 70 year old widow is trying to settle his estate and isn't even sure where his last hunting trip was, let alone if it was all paid for... Just sayin

 

[Big5]

I think that likely regardless of whether or not the individual's name is revealed. In defense of Gerrit, he also needs to consider the potential for a libel suit. That sort of thing happens, no direct experience with that, but I know it does for a fact.

The defense against a libel suit is 'truth'. One would think there was some corroborating correspondence, acknowledgment of monies owed, excuses etc., in support of Gerrit's claim before communication ceased.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I am all for calling out a deadbeat, and I will help fill his PM box with hate mail if he is outed. But... There is going to be some folks that will be feeling pretty silly if we find out that he had a heat attack a couple months ago and his 70 year old widow is trying to settle his estate and isn't even sure where his last hunting trip was, let alone if it was all paid for... Just sayin

Exactly why I'd like to hear the other side of the story.

 

[Hank2211]

I agree with those who have said that trust must be earned. It's a regrettable fact of modern life that to trust anyone and everyone without any basis for that trust is a good recipe for going out of business or losing money.

This cuts both ways though, and that presents some difficulties. If I were an outfitter, I would want hunters to pay for the safari in advance. In a perfect world they would also have paid a deposit on account of trophy fees, with the balance to be paid before they leave the camp. Unfortunately, if the hunter doesn't pay the fees before he leaves the camp, the outfitter can't really keep him captive (not only is that likely illegal, but it costs money to keep the fellow around!). In this day of international banking though, there isn't really any reason that funds can't be wired, which usually takes a day, or the outfitter can make arrangements to take Visa himself or find someone who has that facility who can help out. This is easier in South Africa than in Cameroon, but if you want to, it can be done.

On the other hand, look at it from the hunter's perspective. You are asked to transfer sums of money - generally large sums of money - to someone in a foreign country. You've done your due diligence, and the person is legitimate, and has a good reputation. So you send the money. Sometimes you send the money quite some time in advance - years in some cases (I booked a hunt in Ethiopia for Mountain Nyala in 2014 at SCI - for fall 2016, and of course a deposit has to be put down). And you trust - or hope - that the service will be provided. Even the most reputable safari operators though can end up in financial difficulties, with the result that your deposit could be gone, and your outfitter bankrupt through no fault of yours. So as a hunter, you want to put out the least amount of money you can.

Trust has to work both ways, and both sides in this transaction may well have legitimate concerns about the other delivering on their side.

There are solutions to these problems for those who want to find them. Some outfitters or agents keep the funds in North America or Europe in a trust account until the hunt is over. Often, they can sit on a deposit for trophy fees as well. There are costs to doing this of course, but if the safari operator knew the funds were there to pay for the hunt and trophy fees, and the hunter knew his funds were safeguarded in case of solvency or other issues, perhaps both sides would sleep easier?

I wonder why PHASA or similar associations in other countries don't set up such facilities. I'd be happy to pay for a safari with a new operator unknown to me by transferring funds into a PHASA trust account (assuming South Africa is the destination).

Long post to say that I understand that while this thread has tended to focus on one hunter, operators have this problem from time to time. We've heard of hunters too who've had the same problem with operators.

Time for a solution that works for both sides?