Opinions on the real big boys? 500J, 505 Gibbs, .500 NE, 577NE, 600NE, 700NE etc.

So let me offer some soldierly wisdom - Never stand when you can sit; never sit when you can lie down; never lie down when you can sleep. That British fellow Churchill even used the expression after a bit of campaigning in Natal, India, and the Sudan.

It is a very short logical step to applying the same same principle to a rifle the weight of sewer pipe, with accuracy we wouldn't tolerate in a cranky Model 1911, and the recoil of a baseball bat swung by Ty Cobb.

But as I say, if that is somewhere an aspiring African hunter wants to park his money - sure why not. I would simply suggest putting the first shot exactly where it needs to go with enough gun might be a more useful goal.
hahaha Joe I feel as though you must have had a really bad experience with one of these big calibres at some point in the past? I went from living and breathing the 375H&H like you do ( and I actually still do, absolutely love the 375H&H, my RSM is currently with my gunsmith getting a trigger job ) and then went all the way up to 500 Jeffery, I also came all the way back down to 9.3X62 (also now one of my favourite calibres) but now with all the calibres and rifles I have owned and hunted with I have settled at 450 Rigby and/or 470 NE for an open sighted big bore and 375H&H and/or 458 Lott for a powerful rifle with a low power scope (the longest shots I take when hunting big/dangerous game is around 120 yards).

Having said all that for the most part I agree the 375's are probably the most versatile and easiest to place a good first shot with if all else such as rifle fit etc is good. But if you can shoot a big calibre well then I say why not, half the fun for me is practicing with big calibres and learning to shoot them well, I like the challenge.
 
While the 600NE has declined in popularity the fire is still alive and well on the 577NE. Ask Chris how many he sells per year and you may be surprised.

...

HH

My comment on DR's was also related to the DR's in general and its current use for Big Game hunting in Africa and not just to the double rifles caliber 577NE or 600NE, but it was more of a side comment.

DR's and their use for hunting nowadays in Africa is another topic.
 
It should be noted that a 577NE may not be as effective a choice for elephant as a smaller caliber. It is not just energy or bullet weight but those in combination with frontal area and velocity that determine penetration. And it is penetration that ultimately kills the animal. For elephant you must be prepared for a frontal brain shot. There are post on here somewhere where penetration studies were done comparing calibers from 375 H&H to 577NE and several in between. Obviously the frontal area of a .577 bullet is much greater than on a .375, in fact it is over 2 and a third times greater. Yes bullet weight is 2.5 times greater However velocity is considerably slower thus penetration is less. In fact if I remember reading correctly, studies showed the 577NE "may" fall short of penetration requirements on the biggest of elephant when his head is raised and the most (about 3 feet or almost a meter) penetration is required to hit the brain.

Just food for further thought...

A 577NE double is on my wish list, just because I want one, eventually, after a few other priorities. However should I get one, I do not plan to take it elephant hunting.
 
hahaha Joe I feel as though you must have had a really bad experience with one of these big calibres at some point in the past? I went from living and breathing the 375H&H like you do ( and I actually still do, absolutely love the 375H&H, my RSM is currently with my gunsmith getting a trigger job ) and then went all the way up to 500 Jeffery, I also came all the way back down to 9.3X62 (also now one of my favourite calibres) but now with all the calibres and rifles I have owned and hunted with I have settled at 450 Rigby and/or 470 NE for an open sighted big bore and 375H&H and/or 458 Lott for a powerful rifle with a low power scope (the longest shots I take when hunting big/dangerous game is around 120 yards).

Having said all that for the most part I agree the 375's are probably the most versatile and easiest to place a good first shot with if all else such as rifle fit etc is good. But if you can shoot a big calibre well then I say why not, half the fun for me is practicing with big calibres and learning to shoot them well, I like the challenge.
Ha Ha mate, well no actually. On the contrary, I love the nostalgia of them. I do not currently own a .500 plus, but do own .500/416 and .470 doubles and a .404. I get the tradition of them. I used my 12 bore Paradox in Namibia to roll a couple of warthog for leopard bait and to create a small mountain of sandgrouse. My Blaser S2 performed perfectly (if not traditionally) in Mozambique.

However, what drives me a little crazy is when an aspiring African hunter comes on board asking about the utility of using a .500 or bigger, and gets nothing but encouragement.

The modern African "safari" to kill a buffalo will be 7 - 10 days. It is quite possible that the client's only opportunity will be at an old bull standing with two of his pals deep in mopani shade seventy yards away with a very narrow shooting window. It is a target and shot that a novice buffalo hunter could find and make using a scoped .375 that feels and performs much like his deer rifle at home. Instead, he has a 500 something or another in his hands with either a red dot or irons for sights and a PH urgently whispering "can you make that shot?"

If the client is a wealthy experienced sportsman truly interested in the nostalgia of the hunt, he can easily walk away. He'll be back nest year. But the client who has saved for years for this one opportunity is making decisions from a totally different perspective.

As I said above, if that is where someone wants to spend their money, fine. I just think it is the wrong focus for someone beginning to think about their first DG hunt.
 
It should be noted that a 577NE may not be as effective a choice for elephant as a smaller caliber. It is not just energy or bullet weight but those in combination with frontal area and velocity that determine penetration. And it is penetration that ultimately kills the animal. For elephant you must be prepared for a frontal brain shot. There are post on here somewhere where penetration studies were done comparing calibers from 375 H&H to 577NE and several in between. Obviously the frontal area of a .577 bullet is much greater than on a .375, in fact it is over 2 and a third times greater. Yes bullet weight is 2.5 times greater However velocity is considerably slower thus penetration is less. In fact if I remember reading correctly, studies showed the 577NE "may" fall short of penetration requirements on the biggest of elephant when his head is raised and the most (about 3 feet or almost a meter) penetration is required to hit the brain.

Just food for further thought...

A 577NE double is on my wish list, just because I want one, eventually, after a few other priorities. However should I get one, I do not plan to take it elephant hunting.
I personally think a .577 should only be sold with a gun bearer.
 
It should be noted that a 577NE may not be as effective a choice for elephant as a smaller caliber. It is not just energy or bullet weight but those in combination with frontal area and velocity that determine penetration. And it is penetration that ultimately kills the animal. For elephant you must be prepared for a frontal brain shot. There are post on here somewhere where penetration studies were done comparing calibers from 375 H&H to 577NE and several in between. Obviously the frontal area of a .577 bullet is much greater than on a .375, in fact it is over 2 and a third times greater. Yes bullet weight is 2.5 times greater However velocity is considerably slower thus penetration is less. In fact if I remember reading correctly, studies showed the 577NE "may" fall short of penetration requirements on the biggest of elephant when his head is raised and the most (about 3 feet or almost a meter) penetration is required to hit the brain.

Just food for further thought...

A 577NE double is on my wish list, just because I want one, eventually, after a few other priorities. However should I get one, I do not plan to take it elephant hunting.

Don’t let ballistic gel shooting test get in the way of what years of hunting Elephants has already proven. The 577NE is indeed a superb elephant killing machine. Below is just one of many articles that explain this.

 

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I have a decent amount of experience as a American hunter who has been on Safari 8x so far...I know others who have done way more than me and of course the PH's with vast experience themselves and also seeing how their clients and guns performed.
My first Safari in 95 I used my Custom Browning 458 Win Mag and 450 Barnes X and results were amazing..I was very pleased with complete pentration on some Buff or bullet in far side skin! I got 4 that trip and one running angled away and when hit it was like Thors Hammer!
Then got the fever and ever since I went Big..Next Safari was 500NE Double and 505 Gibbs by Wells...Dead animals left and right by both including a Hippo on land and that 600 Grain Woodeligh at 2300 (Gibbs) went in one side and put the other and splashed mud up 10ft as he slid to a stop almost to the water!! (A real hoot!)
Then my 577NE Wesley Double in Botswana and a fluke allowed me to drop 2 buff with 1 shot each! (I thought I was shooting the same buff in the bush 2x!) A upset PH but alot of high 5s from the crew!! (750 softs at 2200)
Then came the 600s..both a Double and bolts (600 Overkill)..All amazing performances...Oh I forgot my 6.5pd 500Jeff I had built for Brown Bear with 16"..It also took 2 Buff cleanly! ...Now to the Mighty Mastodon 4 Bore Double...2000 grain 100 caliber at 1400fps! It also took 2 Buff and actually rocked them on impact!! Entrance holes were huge but no exit!
So it boils down to what you like and can afford..of course plenty practice helps too!
I just likened with Big Holes!
(Yes I love the 375 and 378 plus the 460 but Love the real BIG ONES even more!) Happy Trails!
Screenshot_20230403_090442_Gallery.jpg
 
I have a decent amount of experience as a American hunter who has been on Safari 8x so far...I know others who have done way more than me and of course the PH's with vast experience themselves and also seeing how their clients and guns performed.
My first Safari in 95 I used my Custom Browning 458 Win Mag and 450 Barnes X and results were amazing..I was very pleased with complete pentration on some Buff or bullet in far side skin! I got 4 that trip and one running angled away and when hit it was like Thors Hammer!
Then got the fever and ever since I went Big..Next Safari was 500NE Double and 505 Gibbs by Wells...Dead animals left and right by both including a Hippo on land and that 600 Grain Woodeligh at 2300 (Gibbs) went in one side and put the other and splashed mud up 10ft as he slid to a stop almost to the water!! (A real hoot!)
Then my 577NE Wesley Double in Botswana and a fluke allowed me to drop 2 buff with 1 shot each! (I thought I was shooting the same buff in the bush 2x!) A upset PH but alot of high 5s from the crew!! (750 softs at 2200)
Then came the 600s..both a Double and bolts (600 Overkill)..All amazing performances...Oh I forgot my 6.5pd 500Jeff I had built for Brown Bear with 16"..It also took 2 Buff cleanly! ...Now to the Mighty Mastodon 4 Bore Double...2000 grain 100 caliber at 1400fps! It also took 2 Buff and actually rocked them on impact!! Entrance holes were huge but no exit!
So it boils down to what you like and can afford..of course plenty practice helps too!
I just likened with Big Holes!
(Yes I love the 375 and 378 plus the 460 but Love the real BIG ONES even more!) Happy Trails!View attachment 526685
Safari Kid, since the .577 Nitro Express typically has a velocity of 2050 fps and your 750Gr soft points were loaded to 2200 fps… didn’t you run into any regulation problems with your .577 NE Westley Richards (like cross-firing) ?

Or was your Westley Richards regulated with some sort of custom loaded ammunition that you sourced ?
 
Don’t let ballistic gel shooting test get in the way of what years of hunting Elephants has already proven. The 577NE is indeed a superb elephant killing machine. Below is just one of many articles that explain this.

I think the test I'm referring to was with wood and wet newspaper. But your point is well taken.

However what about the opposite side of that coin? The 375 is sometimes portrayed as being too small for elephant. The rest of that story is that the 375 has extremely good penetration and is really hard to beat on that fact.
 
I personally think a .577 should only be sold with a gun bearer.
Joe that is frowned upon these days.... I would just rent one;)
 
As someone who hasn't shot anything above the .416's, is it that much of a step up when going from Say .458 Lott to 500J and 470NE to 500NE? I assume those two are a couple of the more "accessible" 0.50's that don't hit quite like the .577's, 600's etc.
My doubles moving from a 470 to a 500 had very little perceived difference but both fit me and had the appropriate weight
 
My question would be why? If you just want to own one sure, but it makes a lousy choice for someone who is just embarking for the first time with Africa as a destination. They make great stopping rifles, but a client's job is to put the first bullet in exactly the correct spot. Most people who are not extremely familiar with heavy recoiling rifles and open sights found on most heavy doubles are far less likely to make the first perfect shot. And all the sturm und drang from .500 whatever won't make up for a poorly placed shot.

Secondly, most are heavy as hell and get much heavier as the hole in the barrel(s) gets bigger. I hate dragging around useless weight when I can carry my R8 configured as a .375 and accomplish much more with it than .500 whatever.

If such a rifle is where you want to park your money, then go for it. I own a lovely Birmingham .470 that I shoot very well. But, I have yet to generate any real desire to drag it around for 15 Kms or so anywhere I have hunted buffalo.
+1!
 
Thanks @Red Leg Once again you diplomatically stated my “WTF thoughts”. I admit I couldn’t find the words so that I would not be rude to the OP. Thanks Red Leg!

Here’s another factor in big Johnson, oops I mean big bore lust. What is the intended purpose? If that is to “own” a .500 caliber rifle then fine, just don’t pay too much! If one can buy a big bore at 70 to 80% of the average selling price, then do it, shoot it, and in a few years pass it on to the next caretaker without loosing any money. I am a gun lover and have done this many times with other firearms.

If as previously stated, elephant hunting is the intended use, fine. But, how many elephant hunts will the buyer ever go on? If after figuring out that one or two elephants will be all one can squeeze in prior to getting too old to carry an 11 pound or heavier rifle for 10 miles a day in Africa heat, if one still has to have a .500, then get out the fat bankroll.

An elephant’s brain is the size of an American football, and it changes relative position to the shooter as its head is raised and lowered. At twenty paces from a 10,000-pound critter that can kill a less than proficient marksman, the big bore hunter better be proficient. Mastering the recoil of a .375 is many times easier than mastering a .500 caliber rifle! There are logical reasons the .416 caliber rifles with their deep penetration and moderate recoil are popular for dangerous game hunting.

Toward mastering a big bore rifle, lots of practice is required. Certainly, repeated shouldering and dry firing will accustom one to the fit and feel of their rifle, but only experiencing the 80+ foot pounds of recoil will allow one to become proficient in shouldering the rifle and presenting “consistent opposition to recoil”, commonly referred to as follow through. Add to that, recovering from the recoil and being able to shoot an accurate second shot. All that takes practice even for the most experience marksman.

I imagine if dangerous game PH’s get together and talk about their experience guiding clients, most will have a story or two about the how many times they had to shoot follow up shots after the big bore client(s) wounded game. Once again, I imagine that a common factor would be the clients had not mastered the big bore rifles. As for me, I want to fell my game without a PH blazing away. A well-placed shot or two with a 375 to 458 in most cases, should drop the largest of game.

To master a big bore rifle, one needs to first be proficient with small, and medium bore rifles. Once accomplished, mastering the big bore will require shooting a fairly large quantity of ammunition. Does the shooter have access to a range for this live-fire practice? Can the shooter either afford shooting many rounds of factory ammunition, or have the capability and experience to hand load the required ammunition? How many rounds? If stepping up from a 458 Lott to a 500 Nitro, then some rounds. If coming from a 375 or 415 to a 500, then IMHO maybe 100 or 200, depending on the shooter. If one is on a budget to afford the hunt, then a more practical rifle may be the wisest choice.

Ammo and loading components for 375 H&H, 416 Remington and Rigby, and 458 Win and Lott are pretty common and more available than most other cartridges. Because they are produced and sold in much larger volume than cartridges such as the 416 Taylor or Ruger, 404 Jeffery, 470 Nitro, and any .500 caliber cartridge, the common cartridges and caliber components are more available and at significantly lower cost. The same is true for the rifles that shoot them…

A search via Ammoseek on 3 April 2023 revealed .500 Nitro available, with shipping at almost $9 a round. In comparison, .458 Lott and .416 Rigby ammo is around $6 a round. Other searches for .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs ammo revealed “None in Stock” anywhere.

For bullets on Ammoseek, .510 were available at almost $2.50 each shipped, and .505 available at almost $2.00 each, shipped. For comparison, .458” 500 grain bullets are available at near $1.50 each, shipped. I must admit that I am surprised at the low cost of the .505 bullets. Better stock up now!

One can often acquire practice bullets in 375, 416, and 458 at very reasonable cost by watching the market. Buy them when they are available! For the big bores, the new big bore shooter better have the cash on hand to buy a couple years’ supply when the ammo and components are available. Why? these items have a limited market so manufactures produce in batches or lots that they can sell in a year or two. When the ammo and components are available at reasonable prices, the experienced big bore shooters will stock up. After a few of them make their purchases all the .500 ammo and components will be “out of stock”. Anything remaining on the market will be higher priced. Supply and demand…

Author’s note: I admit that I have bought dies, brass, bullets, and powder for cartridges prior to procuring a rifle or handgun. “Buy it when its available at a good price…”

Use enough gun, as Ruark said. Great advice but don’t use more than one has mastered!

It can also be said, “Buy a quality rifle, but don’t buy larger than one can afford to practice with enough to master.”
 
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The first 3 in the following order....
500 Jeff
505 Gibbs
500 NE

The rest are too heavy too slow and lack penetration......
 
I think the test I'm referring to was with wood and wet newspaper. But your point is well taken.

However what about the opposite side of that coin? The 375 is sometimes portrayed as being too small for elephant. The rest of that story is that the 375 has extremely good penetration and is really hard to beat on that fact.
You’re not wrong. But in my experience, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is actually not the best suited for BODY SHOTS on big elephant bulls.

Take one bull tusker, for example. I put a full magazine (6 rounds) of 300Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids into his heart-lung region from a BRNO ZKK602 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum). He actually managed to cross a stream and expired on the other side of the stream after 45 minutes or so (we found him after an hour). Postmortem showed that no less than 3 of the solids had gone through his heart. It didn’t seem to slow him down one bit.

Now, some might say “Modern .375 solids would have been far more effective on the elephant bull”. True, but in this case… those Remington FMJ solids had done exactly what they were supposed to do- Punching through the heart. A modern Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid couldn’t have done any better in this regard. But despite all that, they didn’t punch wound cavities into the animal’s vital organs which were large enough to cause him to hemorrhage from blood loss quickly.

Problem with using non expanding bullets for body shots on animals like elephant (which obviously mandate the use of solids)… is that you’re essentially relying on sheer bullet diameter to create those wound channels (no bullet expansion). A .375 caliber solid (in my experience, at least) doesn’t have what it takes to be a good choice for body shots on elephants (not quickly, at least). But a larger caliber does.

Had I made those same shots with a .505 Gibbs (loaded with 600Gr solids at a proper velocity), then I have no doubt that the elephant would never have gone so far.

Now, for brain shots on elephant… a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is perfectly adequate from any angle.

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Hahaha I just about choked on my tea when I read that, it is definitely preferable to rent a gun bearer, lol
Kinda like the 3 F’s rule… If it Floats, Flies or F**ks, rent it. Less Expensive in the long run!
 

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Do you have any cull hunts available? 7 days, daily rate plus per animal price?

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