New SxS Questions and Recommendations

[leslie hetrick]

i have owned quite a few doublebarreled shotguns over the last 50 years, i now only own two, a mid grade spanish 410 for pests and close range small game and a browning 20 BSS sporter made in 1977 and it has been used by three generations for hunting-sporting clay games, shooting many thousands of shells (reloads-factory) with out any repair, only simple maintance(cleaning). good advice given here, try to buy the best you can afford and it will give you years of shooting enjoyment.

 

[frog stealer]

i have owned quite a few doublebarreled shotguns over the last 50 years, i now only own two, a mid grade spanish 410 for pests and close range small game and a browning 20 BSS sporter made in 1977 and it has been used by three generations for hunting-sporting clay games, shooting many thousands of shells (reloads-factory) with out any repair, only simple maintance(cleaning). good advice given here, try to buy the best you can afford and it will give you years of shooting enjoyment.

Thanks for the pics! I wish browning still made those BSS’s! They are definitely on my list, just need to find one that is affordable.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I believe the Charles Daly/Miroku 500 was a double trigger version of the Browning BSS.
Heavy, stout guns they are. Maybe a Miroku 500 would be a great Heym trainer?

 

[Marc Ret]

It might be best to decide what the main purpose of the gun is to be before proceeding.

You mention target shooting and waterfowl with heavy loads. A properly scaled upland double is not the best fit for either of those pursuits. Light for gauge target loads would allow a path for target shooting w/ a light SxS but heavy target loads and even heavier waterfowl loads will beat up both you and the gun.

I am taken with old doubleguns and own a fair number. Keep in mind you are limited to barrel friendly non-tox (Kent TM, Bismuth, etc.) with the vast majority of them if you want to pursue waterfowl... $$$.

The FAIR Iside is a top pick in the $2500 and under new double category, IMO. I own a 30" 20ga Iside EM and have a good number of friends who own Isides in 16ga and 28ga. All have nothing but good to say. They are built on scaled frames, thus on the lighter side for your uses. My 20ga is a touch under 5 3/4lb. Most of the 16s are +/- a couple oz of 6lb. Unsure what the 12s typically run.

Charles Daly 500s are great guns for the money (my 26" 20ga is my favorite grouse gun) but are not double trigger BSSs. Both were made by Miroku but that is the extent of likeness. They are essentially a Japanese copy of an A&D action. Typically, they will run a good bit lighter than a comparable BSS.

Best of luck in your search.

 

[frog stealer]

It might be best to decide what the main purpose of the gun is to be before proceeding.

You mention target shooting and waterfowl with heavy loads. A properly scaled upland double is not the best fit for either of those pursuits. Light for gauge target loads would allow a path for target shooting w/ a light SxS but heavy target loads and even heavier waterfowl loads will beat up both you and the gun.

I am taken with old doubleguns and own a fair number. Keep in mind you are limited to barrel friendly non-tox (Kent TM, Bismuth, etc.) with the vast majority of them if you want to pursue waterfowl... $$$.

The FAIR Iside is a top pick in the $2500 and under new double category, IMO. I own a 30" 20ga Iside EM and have a good number of friends who own Isides in 16ga and 28ga. All have nothing but good to say. They are built on scaled frames, thus on the lighter side for your uses. My 20ga is a touch under 5 3/4lb. Most of the 16s are +/- a couple oz of 6lb. Unsure what the 12s typically run.

Charles Daly 500s are great guns for the money (my 26" 20ga is my favorite grouse gun) but are not double trigger BSSs. Both were made by Miroku but that is the extent of likeness. They are essentially a Japanese copy of an A&D action. Typically, they will run a good bit lighter than a comparable BSS.

Best of luck in your search.

Thanks Marc, lot’s of good points here!

 

[rookhawk]

Hello all, it seems that many of you are very knowledgeable when it comes to shotguns, specifically of the the double barrel type, so I figured I would start here with some questions.

There are two reasons I’m looking to purchase a nice shotgun, the first being that I am getting into sporting clays at my local range quite a bit (currently with a pump shotgun!), and the second is that I am expecting delivery of my first double rifle (Heym 89) within the next few months, and I’d like to develop some muscle memory and gain more experience with double triggers.

Here are some specific questions I have regarding this topic:

-What is a good quality SxS these days? Trying to stay under $3k, but please tell me if I am crazy, and will not find a good double below this price. I’ve read some good reviews of some within my price range (FAIR Iside, Dickinson), and some above (Rizzini, AyA, Beretta).

-Would double triggers be necessary to develop muscle memory for other guns (double rifle), or are they so different that it wouldn’t matter anyway? Thinking most shotguns are straight grip, and most rifles have pistol grips…

-I wouldn’t be opposed to O/U’s as well, they seem to be stronger, and more capable of firing heavy duck loads (I mostly duck hunt, more so than upland), but being that most of them have single triggers, am I better off going with a SxS with double triggers?

Thanks in advance for any help offered!

I would say "none of these" having owned several of them.

What you must remember about SxS guns is the reason the $250,000 English guns are the ultimate refinement is they are very, very light. Perfectly selected wood grain to ensure strength while being very svelte. They also were typically bored for 2.5" shells to again reduce pressure which reduces barrel weight necessity. (even new modern best guns are 2.75" chambers, max) The best of them also adhered to Greener's "Rule of 96" that being that a square load (a low power load with excellent pattern and modest recoil) multiplied by 96 should be the not-to-exceed weight of the shotgun. Example: British 12 bore shooting a 1-ounce load should weigh 6.5lbs, max.

For a hundred reasons, a modern low-cost side by side shotgun, and by low-cost I mean under $15,000-$20,000, will be an overbuilt, miserable gun that swings and carries like a pig on the end of a shovel. Some of the reasons why include: Built for 2.75" or 3" shells, necessitating 2lb heavier barrels. To reduce production costs the stocks are hollow through-bolted to the action making them oversized. Stocks are further made heavy to ensure no warranty claims for stocks that split at the wrist. Mass production thrift allows them to make one or two frame designs (e.g. 12 gauge and 20 gauge, both overbuilt) and then just slap very heavy sub-gauge barrels on it to keep costs down such as a 20 gauge frame with 28 or 410 barrels atop.

So if you don't have $25,000 for a mid-grade new side by side or $250,000 for a new best grade London gun, what are you going to do to get the highest quality, lightest weight, and most beutifully refined shooting weapon on a shoestring budget?

You can buy a Birmingham made boxlock ejector 12 gauge with 28"-30" barrels, english straight grip stock, double triggers, light engraving, 2.5" chambers, and a weight of 6.5lbs for about $2000. You can spend an additional $5000 more if you want it to have more engraving and finer checkering in a dandy of an original case, even though it was the same gun made by the same workers a day apart back in 1925.

If you were in my area I'd let you handle my piece of sh&t Spanish "Best" shotgun that had an MSRP of $14,000-$18,000 (I paid nowhere near that because again, its sh&t) and then I'd have you handle my son's 1920s era EJ Churchill 12 bore that had a retail value of about $2600. There isn't a soul alive that wouldn't agree the English one is a 100x the gun in fit, finish, balance, and refinement.

The great thing about fine shotguns is that exceptional quality doesn't have to cost an exceptionally large amount. If someone can save for a year or two and buy a superblackeagle autoloader, they can afford a very high quality vintage english SxS that is a work of art.

 

[Nevada Mike]

In terms of quality for dollar spent, a clean, used Brit boxlock is a far better bargain than ANY currently made SXS shotgun selling for 2X- 3X the price.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I have bought a number of British SxS shotguns, sidelocks, round actions, and boxlocks. One of my favorites is a lightweight 16b Harkom BLE, with 27" replacement barrels by Hellis, Beesley and Watson (Fred Buller). This gun I imported from a dealer in England... total cost to me was under $2,500 USD.

I bought a very nice Dickson Round Action from 1893, rebarreled with steel barrels by the maker with spectacular wood for under $10,000

Bought a 16b Joseph Lang A&D boxlock for short money and a Henry Atkin lightweight self opening 12b from 1930 for under $12,000, which I felt was a bargain. This from a dealer in England.

There are very fine SxS guns for sale out there, and now that the UK is about to ban all game shooting with lead shot, there will be more available in the US. Shop around.

 

[Kalthoff]

Consider parts availability

I hunt and shoot clays with two SxS shotguns. Both are 12/70 with double triggers and wooden stocks.

Recently the mainspring broke on one of them, a Simson Suhl made in the former DDR in the 1960'ties.

I handed it into a local gunsmith on a Saturday, shortly before closing time. They had it fixed and ready for pickup by Monday. The total price, including parts, labor, vat. etc. was approximately the equivalent of $100. This took place in one of the countries in Europe with the highest wages and highest level of taxation.

This was possible because parts are available and that model of shotgun is common in my area, so the gunsmith hold parts in stock for it.

A delightful old handmade English gun however, will most likely require replacement parts to be made by hand by a gunsmith to fit your particular gun. A much more costly and time consuming affair.

 

[Tanks]

I would say "none of these" having owned several of them.

...

For a hundred reasons, a modern low-cost side by side shotgun, and by low-cost I mean under $15,000-$20,000, will be an overbuilt, miserable gun that swings and carries like a pig on the end of a shovel. Some of the reasons why include: Built for 2.75" or 3" shells, necessitating 2lb heavier barrels. To reduce production costs the stocks are hollow through-bolted to the action making them oversized. Stocks are further made heavy to ensure no warranty claims for stocks that split at the wrist. Mass production thrift allows them to make one or two frame designs (e.g. 12 gauge and 20 gauge, both overbuilt) and then just slap very heavy sub-gauge barrels on it to keep costs down such as a 20 gauge frame with 28 or 410 barrels atop.
...

I'll disagree when it comes to Spanish Aya No. 2 or Grulla shotguns.

 

[rookhawk]

I have bought a number of British SxS shotguns, sidelocks, round actions, and boxlocks. One of my favorites is a lightweight 16b Harkom BLE, with 27" replacement barrels by Hellis, Beesley and Watson (Fred Buller). This gun I imported from a dealer in England... total cost to me was under $2,500 USD.
View attachment 452030
I bought a very nice Dickson Round Action from 1893, rebarreled with steel barrels by the maker with spectacular wood for under $10,000
View attachment 452029
Bought a 16b Joseph Lang A&D boxlock for short money and a Henry Atkin lightweight self opening 12b from 1930 for under $12,000, which I felt was a bargain. This from a dealer in England.
View attachment 452028

View attachment 452031
There are very fine SxS guns for sale out there, and now that the UK is about to ban all game shooting with lead shot, there will be more available in the US. Shop around.

Every one of these guns is a work of art and as you pointed out, a couple of them cost less than a soulless turkish or japanese gun new in the Cabelas rack.

All of them are noted makers but please do not mention Harkom to people. Most don't know what a Harkom is and how perfectly balanced they are. Once the secret is out, they'll end up skyrocketing like Edwinson Greens. Sshhhh.

 

[rookhawk]

I'll disagree when it comes to Spanish Aya No. 2 or Grulla shotguns.

I specifically meant Spanish AyA Number 2 deluxe and Grulla best grade 216 and 217 models. Specifically those POSs, Tanks. (my $18000 Spanish best is a Grulla turd. I've owned at least 4-5 best grade AyAs over the years)

Sure, a cased an unfired AyA 53 or #2 hand detatchable sidelock is a decent gun for cheap, but way overpriced for what they are. Last one I owned about 7-8 years ago, paid $2350. You go on GB or GI and you see people wanting $5000-$12000 for these? Are they drunk? Triggers too soft, firing pins too hard, sloppy engraving, etc.

If we're talking about a new $8000+ Spanish gun (Arrieta, Aguirre Y Aranzabal, Grulla, etc.) versus a $3000 used English gun, I have to side with the Anglos.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I have owned only one Grulla (a 20 gauge 215) it was a pretty good gun, but it had soft hammers that 'mushroomed' and broke a couple of strikers. Well balanced and handy. Not real high quality, but I killed a boxcar load of birds with it. Went down the road years ago.

Prices on Spanish guns have definitely risen sharply in the past couple of years. I had thought of getting a 20 gauge Pedro Arrizabalaga, but they have escalated into the price level where I can get a very good Brit gun. So... looking for a good Brit 20 bore BLE.

 

[rookhawk]

I have owned only one Grulla (a 20 gauge 215) it was a pretty good gun, but it had soft hammers that 'mushroomed' and broke a couple of strikers. Well balanced and handy. Not real high quality, but I killed a boxcar load of birds with it. Went down the road years ago.

Prices on Spanish guns have definitely risen sharply in the past couple of years. I had thought of getting a 20 gauge Pedro Arrizabalaga, but they have escalated into the price level where I can get a very good Brit gun. So... looking for a good Brit 20 bore BLE.

I had a Pedro Arizabalaga made gun that was engraved “Rigby London” on it. Certainly Arizabalaga was one of the better Spanish makers. He made guns private-label for Rigby during the 1980s. It was a plain-Jane side lock and it was pleasantly understated. I think I paid around $2k for it. It was worth every penny of $2k. I sold it to someone that had goo-goo eyes for it solely by the fact it said “Rigby” so it was sold. As nice of a plain side lock as it was, it was not as good as an entry-level Westley Richards box lock Gold Letter, or a Cogswell Avant Tout, or a Charles Hellis Featherweight, all three of which at the time could be had in that $1400-$1900 price range for 12 bore ejectors.

The English boxlock 12 bore is hands down the best deal in fine shotguns.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Among currently manufactured side by side shotguns, your best option (if you particularly intend to use heavy loads in the shotgun) is a Beretta Model 486 Parallelo. It only has three potential drawbacks:
1) It employs an inertia operated single selective trigger
2) It uses an integral hinge pin (unlike Beretta’s previous side by side shotguns which used removable hinge pins)
3) It lacks a third bite

If you intend to use your side by side shotgun as practice for getting better skilled with your double rifle, then I always recommend a shotgun with double triggers. The Merkel Model 40E (boxlock) or the Merkel Model 60E (sidelock) are excellent in this regard.

 

[wesheltonj]

Unfortunately, no RST shells are currently available for older guns.

 

[crs]

Leslie,
Well said.
I grew up shooting a Parker 20 ga on a 28 frame and still shoot it now and then.
My two Parker reproductions have met all my adult shooting needs except for wild turkey here in Texas where rifles are legal for turkey. Many are taken with deer rifles in the fall, just in time for Thanksgiving.

For turkey, I use a scoped combo gun of .22 Hornet over 3 inch 12 ga. Good for prairie dogs and turkey out to 150 yards. Takes the occasional coyote also. If needed, there is a .45-70 barrel insert.
What was that said about "use enough gun"?

 

[375er]

Unfortunately, no RST shells are currently available for older guns.

WTF???? This is waaaayyy out of hand.