Need for Solids?

[Olivier]

Gday
Here’s a little bit for people to digest & see how we are so conditioned to what we are told & not look outside of the square


On looking @ these pictures below one is a hydro & one a Barnes both in 375

1st pic is Entry into the chest of a bovine of around 850/900 pounds
View attachment 705019
Exit side on inside of the chest View attachment 705015

So a solid does less damage than an expanding ??

Yes if we listen too what we are told & lead to believe by individuals or companies is the only way & we blindly follow the pied piper & don’t understand what we actually need for a chosen critter & how to apply it to the best of its ability , we will get no where near this that I can guarantee

Yes the hydro out preformed the Barnes easily well on what I saw lol

Barnes on left hydro on right in the pictures above

barnes 350 tsx
Hydro 235
With both not being slow as I’m a speed freak lol


Cheers

It looks like the Barnes are going through flesh, and the Solid is going through the bone of a rib... Wouldn't it be more appropriate for both to hit either bone or flesh?

 

[ftrovato]

Gday ftrovato

Good pic up sir got me looking a little more so thankyou but not quite dead but dead on feet i guess you could call it ? i believe was basically so yes I guess as it just kinda froze on impact of the hydro & then wobbled a touch as I put the Barnes in it as it dropped ( I don’t know probably 4 to 6 seconds between shots) here’s another pic of entry & that shows way less than normal blood splash or Barnes types of wounds View attachment 706036

The interesting part of this was the lungs also as they had no colour of a normal type of wound ( sorry don’t have pics of those )
Now I need to delve a little deeper here to hopefully answer some parts while others I’ve got no idea & only a theory so anyone else know the finer details please speak up

Overall you see more blood shot meat /bruising or bloody layers ( I guess that’s what your referring to as haemorrhaging ) from cup & core bullets than the monos
Now you’ll see some extremely clean wounds with the earlier hammer bullets but todays you see more bloodshot meat this I believe is from 2 different systems of killing

One is the hydraulic action that for better words is like a air compressor has blown the critter up & the nervous system has gone into shock & the body as a self defense mechanism stops everything working but I think this air compressor effect pushes the blood away from the wound site & hence you get very clean wounds heres some others in various critters
View attachment 706023View attachment 706024View attachment 706027

Now the part that’s fascinating to me on this one is Barnes don’t usually produce a clean wound & act more like the hydro on the right to more bruises again like the bonded but not as much as some non bonded pills as these seem to crush the meat not cut it & I know I’ve got better pictures than these but please excuse me for not being thorough enough View attachment 706026View attachment 706025

Todays hammer pills are very easy to follow wound paths unlike these of the hydraulic pills they use to be as was case here View attachment 706028


Now the other part you see a lot of bruising in /on meat is when the critters run & this one definitely didn’t run so that gives us a plus on that but still it’s a very clean wound
Now the position of the hydro cut a lot of stuff off @ the top of the pump house so could that have effected the part of no blood pressure in the back of those lungs & ribs ????

I just don’t know why or what occurred & be good for a little more clarity if you or anyone else has any ideas

Thanks for the pickup as now has me ticking & im going to do a little testing on this now & see if I can replicate those clean wounds again with the 350 Barnes?
Cheers

I suspect when the heart stops pumping new bruising doesn't occur anymore.

To your point, it's hard to prove that as a hunter.

I'd imagine when a heart has stopped and animal is standing dead on its feet, additional/new trauma will not occur.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Oliver

It looks like the Barnes are going through flesh, and the Solid is going through the bone of a rib... Wouldn't it be more appropriate for both to hit either bone or flesh?

You are correct on the different resistances creating different wounds

On the “more appropriate “ correct again
I do try & get as close as possible to same when evaluating differences in pills & I do multiple critters ( buff down as no luxury on elephant ) not just a one off like in the case we are talking about here as that was easier for me to show that than the talk as a picture tells a story with way more credibility than my words

On those contrary to what people may think I’ve seen the Barnes not produce the killing efficiency of the hydro in this case over & over again across multiple resistances & multiple species & sizes I did have a few photos in my phone of the differences & either deleted them or can’t find

But that’s easily fixed as soon as the situation becomes available , I’ll go shoot some critters & get more appropriate data to show why the solid works better under a different mindset of application

Not saying you have a different mindset as you made very valid points & I’ll agree on them hands down


Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday
sectional density ( SD ) is one that a lot still go off in choosing a bullet that is so called going to give better preformance due to a higher SD

Terminal sectional density (TSD ) is actually part of the key to understanding actuals

Here’s a few different examples

To the eagle eyes who may have noticed the calipers were measuring the same pill in different locations hmmm

where is the spot we take the measurements from ??? but more importantly what does this do terminally???

I’ve got no clue on where the measurements are taken on these & basically I halve the 2 to give a guesstimate but terminally I’ve got a way better understanding of what does what

Here’s better pictures of what I’m asking

I’ll start another thread on terminal sectional density ( not going to happen overnight sorry ) & overall where the old concept is outdated & one we can get into it more of a in-depth discussion that I’ll show the odd picture or 3 & to not derail this thread anymore

Cheers

 

[michael458]

After my hunt I was talking guns and bullets with the retired PH who actually owned the land upon which I had been hunting.
His opinion was that since the advent of the really good controlled expansion, mono copper bullets like the Barnes brand that he felt there really was no longer any real need for solids in the 375 caliber rifles and on up.
What’s your opinion?

I would say the fellow had been drinking too much kool aid?

Fact is, anyone with that opinion, many non shooter client hunters here with the same opinion are simply short sighted and misguided.

A "Properly Designed Solid" is the most important part of any serious Dangerous game endeavor, and even in many cases, non dangerous game as well.............

You see I state "Properly Designed"......... All Solids are NOT created equal. There is a world of difference in a Round Nose FMJ so called solid and a Flat Nose 65% meplat of caliber Solid, with all the proper design factors included. No comparison at all between those.

1. I have heard the statement "Premium expanding bullets are so good these days, you no longer need solids for Buffalo"..................

2. I have heard the statement "You should use Premium Expanding bullets for heart/lung shots on elephant and rhino because a solid just does not do enough damage"...................

These are statements made out of ignorance, and quite frankly inexperienced shooters. I draw a serious distinction between the terms "Hunter" & "Shooter"..............

When I started my hunting endeavors many years ago, I was green as could be when it came to the hunting. But I was not green to shooting, I was a shooter in many different aspects of the shooting world. I was totally amazed and bewildered when I met other hunters and would ask, questions like "What bullet are you using", loads, rifles, cartridges, all sorts of other details and the person would not have a clue? "No man, I bought it at the gun store, the guy said these bullets were the best"........ "My Gunsmith said this bullet was a real buffalo slammer".................."I don't know, friend of mine told me to use these".......... and it goes on and on. I was totally taken by surprise that someone going buffalo hunting knew so little about what they were shooting! I learned that some had never even fired their rifles until they were on site! Some had the PH sight the rifles in? This was absurd to me, I did not understand this mentality at all. This is not where I came from for sure.

Those people would not be qualified as "Shooters"............... And the knowledge base severely limited.

Others may be great hunters in the field, but have no real experience shooting. And the other way around as well. I am not a hunter, I never hunted to Hunt! I hunted to SHOOT. Do keep in mind however, with that statement said, I enjoyed being in the field just as much as anyone, but my purpose for being there was different. I did not go to the field to hunt the biggest trophy whatever that was out there, I went to do the shooting, every round I fired and animal taken was a trophy to me, I never carried a measuring tape. I was testing bullets, rifles, cartridges and theories of rifles, bullets and cartridges............ Did I enjoy the hunt, the adventure and the endeavor? Of course I did, just the same as every single one of you do, but the purpose was different. Once I had accomplished all I wanted to do with the shooting part....... I retired from hunting. I no longer desired or needed it.

To say "Solids are no Longer Needed", is simply ignorance at play.

What is a Solids Purpose?

To penetrate deep and straight, to overcome obstacles that may be in the way, to give depth of penetration that no conventional or non conventional Trauma Inflicting bullet can accomplish. While Proper Solids can be used as a Primary First Shot Bullet, that is not normally the case or the Primary Purpose of the Solid. The Primary Purpose of the Solid is to follow up after that first so called Perfect Shot is taken with the Trauma Inflicting bullet. The next shot taken will not be that perfect shot! There are hundreds of difference scenarios that might come up, lets say buffalo, 1st shot buffalo runs, most of the time away from you, your shot is in the South End of a North Bound buffalo, and that is several feet of penetration needed to reach vitals, or a serious heavy constructed bullet to hit and break bone down and continue on its path. Only a proper designed FN Solid can accomplish this mission. Your second shot may be through brush, limbs and even trees, it will be fast and furious and you won't have time to pick the perfect shot. Only a proper designed solid has a chance to accomplish this mission.

I mentioned above about using a Proper designed solid as a Primary Bullet. First shot fired! To me, this is very desirable with cartridges of limited capacity and velocity. The big Flat Nose Solid can penetrate where conventional and non conventional Trauma bullets cannot. When using a limited capacity cartridge, your bullets are also limited, a big FN Solid can get you where you need to go, without compromising penetration. I would look hard for this ability in various Lever Gun cartridges.

Elephant? Really, there can't be any question about that, not from any knowledgeable person. Solids.... Proper Designed Solids........... End of story............

Recently a statement was made about using a premium expanding bullet on a rhino. This person used an inferior solid on rhino, did not do the job and ended up chasing it for however far and however long. Figured his problem was not his shooting ability or knowledge of proper solids, but it must have been that solid bullets are not any good, so to fix that, use a expanding bullet! Yeah, OK............. another example of ignorance. I am going to show you below, how a Serious Shooter handles a rhino with a serious bullet.

Now there is this ignorant habit of inexperienced shooters/hunters thinking they shoot one time, sit back and see the great results of their marksmanship abilities! Shoot one time and Stop and Admire? That is STUPID, capital STUPID. They read to many "Sniper" books and fancy themselves something they are not!

An experienced shooter never stops shooting until one of the below factors takes over;
You Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore;
1. You no longer have target in sight and no shot!
2. You have no more ammo!
3. Your problem is solved...... Your target is down.........and even then you shoot one more time, pay the insurance! In addition you approach ready to shoot more if needed!

Below is how an Experienced and Skilled Shooter handles a Rhino...... and this could just as easily be elephant, buffalo, hippo, bear, lion and much more...............This came to me in the last couple of days. The bullet used in this was the new 400 CEB Safari Solid in .458 caliber, which I had done not too long ago.

This Shooter is using a 458 WSM, somewhat limited, but not severely so. He Hand Loads, capable of making his own from prepping the brass, to load data, and proper choice of the bullet for the mission at hand. He shoots a lot, preps his rifle, sights and cartridge so that he knows he can be successful in the endeavor. He knows his rifle, cartridge and bullet capabilities. And these are the results of this and how he accomplished it.

The load was a 400 CEB #13 Solid at 2250 fps. The dance started at 62 yards. (A little long for my tastes to be honest) Below a description of each shot fired. Take note, our Pro Shooter did not sit and wait or admire his first shot....... He went to work and solved the problem.

Shot 1 – Frontal in between neck and shoulder. Went through the heart. Stopped just before the hip joint if you will. Buckled the front legs well. But turned and tried to run.

Shot 2 – Left side, fully broadside, high lung shot only one lung. Pass through.

Shot 3 – Left side, fully broadside, both lungs, stuck in opposite side rib. Fell down on it’s side 30 feet from where it started.

Shot 4 – Center Sternum, stopped moving Never recovered the bullet.

Shot 5 - Little further up, under the arm pit, lodged in opposite shoulder at the top.

As I see this I believe shot 4 and 5 were paying the insurance. Our Pro Shooter fired 1-3 to get the target down in a timely manner, with target never moving further than 30 ft from the beginning of the dance! This is how you handle a Problem, once you start that dance!

Now, I want you to look closely at this photo, your attention is drawn to the lower shot, with the trickle of blood running out.......... But look a little higher and you will also see that wonderful cookie cutter wad cutter hole that is so typical of a nice Flat nose Solid, leaving a full caliber hole in the thick skin. These do not close up like you would see with a sorry Round Nose design...........

And of course what also made this a very successful hunt, THE BULLET........... Do remember that at least 2 exited the broadside shots........... I never measured a rhino in length, and this one was a full grown version, looks pretty long to me................

There are many good reasons to be in possession of properly designed Solids for every endeavor in the field, and there are NO good reasons for not having them.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I would say the fellow had been drinking too much kool aid?

Fact is, anyone with that opinion, many non shooter client hunters here with the same opinion are simply short sighted and misguided.

A "Properly Designed Solid" is the most important part of any serious Dangerous game endeavor, and even in many cases, non dangerous game as well.............

You see I state "Properly Designed"......... All Solids are NOT created equal. There is a world of difference in a Round Nose FMJ so called solid and a Flat Nose 65% meplat of caliber Solid, with all the proper design factors included. No comparison at all between those.

1. I have heard the statement "Premium expanding bullets are so good these days, you no longer need solids for Buffalo"..................

2. I have heard the statement "You should use Premium Expanding bullets for heart/lung shots on elephant and rhino because a solid just does not do enough damage"...................

These are statements made out of ignorance, and quite frankly inexperienced shooters. I draw a serious distinction between the terms "Hunter" & "Shooter"..............

When I started my hunting endeavors many years ago, I was green as could be when it came to the hunting. But I was not green to shooting, I was a shooter in many different aspects of the shooting world. I was totally amazed and bewildered when I met other hunters and would ask, questions like "What bullet are you using", loads, rifles, cartridges, all sorts of other details and the person would not have a clue? "No man, I bought it at the gun store, the guy said these bullets were the best"........ "My Gunsmith said this bullet was a real buffalo slammer".................."I don't know, friend of mine told me to use these".......... and it goes on and on. I was totally taken by surprise that someone going buffalo hunting knew so little about what they were shooting! I learned that some had never even fired their rifles until they were on site! Some had the PH sight the rifles in? This was absurd to me, I did not understand this mentality at all. This is not where I came from for sure.

Those people would not be qualified as "Shooters"............... And the knowledge base severely limited.

Others may be great hunters in the field, but have no real experience shooting. And the other way around as well. I am not a hunter, I never hunted to Hunt! I hunted to SHOOT. Do keep in mind however, with that statement said, I enjoyed being in the field just as much as anyone, but my purpose for being there was different. I did not go to the field to hunt the biggest trophy whatever that was out there, I went to do the shooting, every round I fired and animal taken was a trophy to me, I never carried a measuring tape. I was testing bullets, rifles, cartridges and theories of rifles, bullets and cartridges............ Did I enjoy the hunt, the adventure and the endeavor? Of course I did, just the same as every single one of you do, but the purpose was different. Once I had accomplished all I wanted to do with the shooting part....... I retired from hunting. I no longer desired or needed it.

To say "Solids are no Longer Needed", is simply ignorance at play.

What is a Solids Purpose?

To penetrate deep and straight, to overcome obstacles that may be in the way, to give depth of penetration that no conventional or non conventional Trauma Inflicting bullet can accomplish. While Proper Solids can be used as a Primary First Shot Bullet, that is not normally the case or the Primary Purpose of the Solid. The Primary Purpose of the Solid is to follow up after that first so called Perfect Shot is taken with the Trauma Inflicting bullet. The next shot taken will not be that perfect shot! There are hundreds of difference scenarios that might come up, lets say buffalo, 1st shot buffalo runs, most of the time away from you, your shot is in the South End of a North Bound buffalo, and that is several feet of penetration needed to reach vitals, or a serious heavy constructed bullet to hit and break bone down and continue on its path. Only a proper designed FN Solid can accomplish this mission. Your second shot may be through brush, limbs and even trees, it will be fast and furious and you won't have time to pick the perfect shot. Only a proper designed solid has a chance to accomplish this mission.

I mentioned above about using a Proper designed solid as a Primary Bullet. First shot fired! To me, this is very desirable with cartridges of limited capacity and velocity. The big Flat Nose Solid can penetrate where conventional and non conventional Trauma bullets cannot. When using a limited capacity cartridge, your bullets are also limited, a big FN Solid can get you where you need to go, without compromising penetration. I would look hard for this ability in various Lever Gun cartridges.

Elephant? Really, there can't be any question about that, not from any knowledgeable person. Solids.... Proper Designed Solids........... End of story............

Recently a statement was made about using a premium expanding bullet on a rhino. This person used an inferior solid on rhino, did not do the job and ended up chasing it for however far and however long. Figured his problem was not his shooting ability or knowledge of proper solids, but it must have been that solid bullets are not any good, so to fix that, use a expanding bullet! Yeah, OK............. another example of ignorance. I am going to show you below, how a Serious Shooter handles a rhino with a serious bullet.

Now there is this ignorant habit of inexperienced shooters/hunters thinking they shoot one time, sit back and see the great results of their marksmanship abilities! Shoot one time and Stop and Admire? That is STUPID, capital STUPID. They read to many "Sniper" books and fancy themselves something they are not!

An experienced shooter never stops shooting until one of the below factors takes over;
You Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore;
1. You no longer have target in sight and no shot!
2. You have no more ammo!
3. Your problem is solved...... Your target is down.........and even then you shoot one more time, pay the insurance! In addition you approach ready to shoot more if needed!

Below is how an Experienced and Skilled Shooter handles a Rhino...... and this could just as easily be elephant, buffalo, hippo, bear, lion and much more...............This came to me in the last couple of days. The bullet used in this was the new 400 CEB Safari Solid in .458 caliber, which I had done not too long ago.

This Shooter is using a 458 WSM, somewhat limited, but not severely so. He Hand Loads, capable of making his own from prepping the brass, to load data, and proper choice of the bullet for the mission at hand. He shoots a lot, preps his rifle, sights and cartridge so that he knows he can be successful in the endeavor. He knows his rifle, cartridge and bullet capabilities. And these are the results of this and how he accomplished it.

The load was a 400 CEB #13 Solid at 2250 fps. The dance started at 62 yards. (A little long for my tastes to be honest) Below a description of each shot fired. Take note, our Pro Shooter did not sit and wait or admire his first shot....... He went to work and solved the problem.

Shot 1 – Frontal in between neck and shoulder. Went through the heart. Stopped just before the hip joint if you will. Buckled the front legs well. But turned and tried to run.

Shot 2 – Left side, fully broadside, high lung shot only one lung. Pass through.

Shot 3 – Left side, fully broadside, both lungs, stuck in opposite side rib. Fell down on it’s side 30 feet from where it started.

Shot 4 – Center Sternum, stopped moving Never recovered the bullet.

Shot 5 - Little further up, under the arm pit, lodged in opposite shoulder at the top.

As I see this I believe shot 4 and 5 were paying the insurance. Our Pro Shooter fired 1-3 to get the target down in a timely manner, with target never moving further than 30 ft from the beginning of the dance! This is how you handle a Problem, once you start that dance!

View attachment 707003

Now, I want you to look closely at this photo, your attention is drawn to the lower shot, with the trickle of blood running out.......... But look a little higher and you will also see that wonderful cookie cutter wad cutter hole that is so typical of a nice Flat nose Solid, leaving a full caliber hole in the thick skin. These do not close up like you would see with a sorry Round Nose design...........

View attachment 706999

View attachment 707001

View attachment 706998

And of course what also made this a very successful hunt, THE BULLET........... Do remember that at least 2 exited the broadside shots........... I never measured a rhino in length, and this one was a full grown version, looks pretty long to me................

View attachment 707005

There are many good reasons to be in possession of properly designed Solids for every endeavor in the field, and there are NO good reasons for not having them.

Completely Agree!

HH

 

[Fordy]

Gday
I’ve Not got the level of knowledge of some especially with words

I’m a more a let’s see the evidence of what a bullet will do so just go smack critter after critter & understanding it’s strengths and weaknesses then one has a better understanding of where the white noise brigade falls apart on their lack or willingness to move forward


So as Micheal so elegantly put it here’s a snapshot of what occurs when one is doing their job properly oh & look some little critters yes sometimes it’s better for that shot on them rather than admiring the shot & loosing the critter or a long tracking job @ best & overall without the trackers ability most wouldn’t have the trophy’s they talk about
This is most often not a bullets fault it’s ours & lack of understanding of terminals

so much for so many to still learn myself included but to not have a solid in the equation of a blanket statement is one that shows the actual level of education that’s still needed & this sadly is especially true with some weekend warriors , companies & PH’s also


Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday
@Olivier
Here’s the latest on the Barnes

Special note here is this one reaction to the shot was more of a traditional one of a not physically hurt as much think how a broadhead reaction is & the true solid of a round nose or slow impacts

The other one that was extremely valuable on this one was the lack of blood spoor ( chest cavity was extremely full but very little leakage ) & a trait you see on these types of pills & this is a roughly 2540 impact & exit is basically sealed off from the membrane
The good cookie cutting solids don’t exhibit this trait very often

Above pic is on outside of ribs before shoulder meat was impacted

Hopefully that shows a bit better detail
Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Looks like what that 'possum did when I hit it in the head with my flashlight bat last night,
in my backyard.
My pair of rat terriers had him playing possum until I got there.
Town 'possums !

So, was the rectal evacuation of this bovine caused by a CNS hit ?
Is there a little nick from bullet on tail of the bovine ?

And from post following that, was that a 375-gr/.375 TSX ?
Impacting (~2540 fps) at about what range ?
And did it stop inside the shoulder meat after traversing the chest cavity ?

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank
Your post above is good in the way of we need to understand what has occurred & I’ll need a bit of time to write it up for a good bit of clarity well hopefully but we know me lol
I’ll comeback asap just gotta run & do a bit of work & pay some bills

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday @Riflecrank & others that want to read a little bit more of the journey that eventually found the way forward based off factual information with outcomes that varied from instant incapacitation to some extremely long tracking & even lost critters over the journey I’ve had that eventually showed why @michael458
Is so correct on his advise , man I could’ve done with that 25/30 years ago but probably my pig headed nature back then of don’t tell me I can’t shoot accurately would’ve taken the front seat as it did with the frangible c&c I used back then & still ended up loosing critters due to not stepping back & clearing my head as my old mentor kept saying every time I showed him the good results I was getting or sitting on a mountain range in NZ showing him how well the pills I was shooting preformed & the wise words I finally understood the “just keep shooting Fordy & you’ll see it eventually” hmmm I was a slow learner

Yes he was right just as Michael is

I’d worked this out a few years ago so no need on a schooling for me I believe Michael ? but I also haven’t got it all to where I’m happy as still that one underlying extremely small part that I’ll refrain on talking about here , yes the baseline first sir !!!! & that is underway on the first part but one I’ve been working & culling in overdrive that’s getting in the road of those tests so I’ll report in on next stage of questioning I have before I pull the trigger on those tests as I need to do this once & do it right & pm will be sent shortly

Sorry for derail my mind is in all over the show lately & if I don’t put it down this muppet will forget

So now the muppet has been mentioned lol
Yes me & time to really get into it

Riflecrank A lot of those pics I’d put up are from expanding/ trauma pills & initially I was like the vast majority of people we see here that no need for a true solid as per the introduction part @ start of my post above


Well on these bovines especially over the years but horses are also a great one I’ve learned a lot on & taken 1000’s of them & one you wait till the good shot presents & put those expanding/trauma pills in the boiler room it’s game over right

Well completely wrong & let’s go back to the pig headed muppet ( yes me )

A buff is actually very easy to stop running away from you contary to a lot of beliefs

It’s either cut the tail like riflecrank picked up or have one hand span off the tail to either side ( watch angle of run away gives you your side of best option & take the pelvis/bones out but now we enter into the part the muppet plays & where the easy to bring down bovines or horses are a little more difficult than the easily wrote words above .
now I took 2 guys up north around 5years ago for a week whacking & stacking bovines horses & donkeys & they named me the back up shooter among other things lol & one we lost 2 buff that the trip of over 100 of those critters my other mate there said Fordy they have to learn to shoot again & again till the critter is on the ground properly

So that’s what occurred no back up

Here’s all that we got on this bovine & one that admiring the shot lost my mate a buff of a lifetime ( I also lost one buff due to being a Slovakian of not securing with another shot & it made the thick stuff right on dark but one I wouldn’t persue with a held lamp anymore ( yes done some stupid stuff over the years )but it didn’t go far as found weeks later but lost it was counted as but mostly my fault for admiring & not to justify but sometimes you need to admire on testing a pill’s capacity but one that a good backup plan is needed

So yes insurance shot should’ve been applied & one the expanding pills of the time would’ve most likely secured him also on a second shot but reality was when the bull rose to his feet the only shot offered was a south to north angle & one that the lost critter should not need anymore explaining
Hmmm we were using all expanding/trauma pills that trip

Just in case let’s make sure but one I’ll break down this way

Let’s start by using the rat calibre 375 & one that on buff on these south end shots there is not a expanding / trauma pill I’ve seen that has been able to get through the paunch to the vitals in the chest & I’ve tried some lol


So now we go to but I had shown the recovered critters from those raking shots so worked fine right

& riflecrank picked it up on the tail & all worked out well as the petals in this case cut the femoral artery while another got into the spinal column & immobilised immediately so yes that’s pretty darn good

Now move to this guy from another trip & we nearly lost him & my youngest sons best buff to date with more on him in a minute as extremely important of what secured him

Yes & no & where this muppet has a very good track record of securing those & as I said before so is that the same as relying on a ph to finish the job

I hope we don’t go that route as with respect that is also not a wise choice as in some cases I guarantee the ph can’t solve it either especially if he or she is only carrying a expanding /trauma pill in the rat calibre & won’t matter what caliber they have if one looks at it more deeply
The reason is simple & no matter how good of a shot one is the use of those pills are reliant on one thing & that is the need to bust the back leg bone , pelvis take out the femoral artery or spine
You miss that & it’s a long tracking job as this one was of a long long way after first 2 shots

So the first shot is pretty self explanatory as all good but a quick second that we thought all good it will be down but had missed the vital parts of the rear end shot placement hence lessons learned we can’t guarantee it even with a shedding
So off on the tracks & around 2/3 rds of a mile later we found & sent the third shot that just got him into another gear & off we went again on the merry go round of getting a glimpse & loosing him in the thicker stuff pick up tracks & glimpse again & so on
The last shot was all we could see & I sent this one with correct placement & cutting the femoral but off he went on impact of the shot @ a pretty quick pace yes he still hadn’t succumb to that 1st chest shot & was pretty well full of steam as no way we could keep up so tracking was the method once again & after around 1/4 mile he had stopped due to the lack of blood & might add he was easier to track due to the amount coming out of that last shot
Here’s a couple more pics of that bull that may interest some but I’m sorry I’ve deleted the autopsy ones of the vitals & nothing made it through the paunch

& also on this kinda thing above sometimes with a pi$$ed buff they can come in extremely fast or if he goes the other way hopefully you recover your critter as we we’re lucky on this guy as he nearly made it to a no go area around 400 yards off so I’m pretty sure if that artery hadn’t of been cut he was gone for good & also it’s still extremely dangerous with all 4 legs still functioning & buff come extremely quick on 4 legs 3 not so quick & 2 it’s one you can pretty well walk upto them with way less fear

So breaking this down even more wouldn’t it have been better to have that 2nd shot ( the 1st raking one ) into those vitals with a good solid ???
( lessons learned along that path also & more on that part shortly ) & let’s just go back to say the likes of the Barnes as it seems a favourite here
on the wound channel size it’s not like some believe either as once again the different zone wound channels come into play here & even if we use a 2xcalibre expansion you’re relying on something that’s only .1875 of a inch bigger than the true solid to cut that artery or bust bone & if your relying on that to get your critter your playing the bluff game with yourself & why the good shedding monos are way more consistent @ recovery of critters in these shot angles than ANY mushroom pill end of that story or is it ?

Well once again is it NO as now let’s go the route I’ve also gone that didn’t work & go a bigger caliber & don’t know what you Guys call them I just say big bores & that’s plus 375 for me but whatever it is let’s just step up to my little baby the 500 Jeffery & same analogy as above in 375 but I’m yet to see a consistent pattern of reliability to get through that paunch with anything other than a good true solid so back to the solid once again we go except now we have a bigger frontal & for those that believe it’s only .135 overall or .0675 ea side of the pill that’s also just a textbook answers as when you compare the .510 vrs a 375 the wounds they are not the same proportionally as now we need to go back to meplat shape as that dictates a lot surface area is way greater ( a simple example is a 2in pipe @same pressure will will deliver approximately 4times the water of a 1 inch pipe yet it’s only twice the size )
Especially if one understands the speed of the pill in / through the critter ( wound zones tell us a lot ) & applies it in a way that’s a little unconventional but to compromise on penertration is a no no as here’s a bad solid

that yes did it’s job partially that time & still outperformed the expanding we used but it failed numerous times on lesser critters but higher resistance so one should be stringent on consistency across a lot of resistances & a lot of critters



Now all of that has left out the potential deflection that occurs on a higher % with the rat calibers Especially the flea calibers lol ( below 6.5 ) but also the mushroom & shedding are back to the drawing board as those also don’t offer the reliability of a proper designed solid end of story

WELL NO once again but until I do the tests that are forthcoming i am better of saying @ this stage of the understanding & knowledge of a proper good solids it is the best that’s available & never be dismissed as not needed as just keep shooting as it will occur , maybe not to you but it will to someone & that’s
THE END OF THE STORY !!!!


Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Whack a possum in the head or water buffalo in the spine
for similar CNS effects. Noted.
Still studying this, Fordy, got interrupted by the Old Ladies here.
Thanks.

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank I got a little sidetracked on my previous post to your questions below so I’ll try & answer best I can

Looks like what that 'possum did when I hit it in the head with my flashlight bat last night,
in my backyard.
My pair of rat terriers had him playing possum until I got there.
Town 'possums !

So, was the rectal evacuation of this bovine caused by a CNS hit ?

Love the rat terriers
I think it’s just the body loosing control of all its bodily functions due to death as you see that in a lot of critters

Is there a little nick from bullet on tail of the bovine ?

Yes , I think that was partly answered in my previous post but if one looks @ it you can see a not so normal straight cut /nick
This is a very important bit of information on how a pill works & you’ll see patterns here & ultimately if a pill will give optimal or less than ideal results
In this case the petal pattern is so important & you’re starting to see where a mechanical broadhead issue potentially occur it was good in this case as it entered a straight line of the backside of the buff

It can also occur if one is very close due to the projectiles instability from the muzzle basically a unstable projectile & this isn’t anything brand specific I’ve seen but without a doubt design will help or hinder & more on this in the next part

And from post following that, was that a 375-gr/.375 TSX ?
Impacting (~2540 fps) at about what range ?
And did it stop inside the shoulder meat after traversing the chest cavity ?

Those pictures were from a 350 gr tsx in 375 cal out of my rum
Impact was around 15 yard & excited

This is also important & I was trying to avoid getting into this too Deep as it’s id say already a lot for people to take in & once again a lot won’t get it based off previous history on discussions on these things & I don’t know all of the whys but without a doubt it occurs & hey let’s get into it as it’s also extremely important for reliability of the pill working as designed & someone may also have a bit more to the puzzle

As the pill leaves the muzzle it’s unstable & guess you call it wobbling like a football that’s not thrown well but the pill will stabilise once it gets down range a bit further the wobble stabilises out

This seems to be pretty bad 10 yards & under & under 20 you can still see it on some design

This is one extremely important piece of information as depending on design it can show some pretty weird occurrences in critters now a faster twist is a good bandaid but a better bet is to have a better designed bullet

So we’re are talking solids vrs a expanding/trauma pill
& close shot of let’s say 10 yards as if your not close your not having fun lol
The solid of good design has the ability to correct the wobble once it gets into the critter the likes of some expanding or shedding don’t
Yes design is critical here
So let’s forget the solid as it’s the best already ( I don’t forget it but working on that I think it potentially has a ability to be improved on but crow I may need to eat again)
So now seeing Im on the path of Barnes you’ll see these pills just give more erratic results up close but it’s also on some shedding as I found out with the hammers numerous times & if one was not careful it turned into some nightmares worse than Barnes
Easy fix was change the nose profile & you see that in your 458 404SH as that was based off it’s parent pill & a pretty well tested 375 cal 270SH I had with another fine gentleman a lot of input into & one that can withstand a mechanical broadhead occurrence on a greater level

The best 2 brands /styles that are really not effected & not really need bandaids ( you can run the advertised twist rates without concern ) are the ceb raptor & the apex afterburner ( apex only in rat caliber so no good for some ) but I’ll not talk the good I’ll hone in on the bad as I always do

we hear a solid is no good on a charge vrs a expanding
Well against a wobbling Barnes or a poor style hammer you watch me take the ever so unpopular solid these days even on the way most people believe them to be run of a traditional weight & that’s slow
Yes once again speed is your friend here but a lot seem scared of it as it on the wrong style /construction is one to be very wary of
Now the likes of the tbbc or rhino solid shank etc do pretty darn well on these types of shots but once again they are not as consistent as a solid especially once you clear your head on application

Yes it’s only a another part of the fascinating world of terminals & one that still have more to learn

I have a lot of words that don’t relate properly to what they are in most people’s eyes which is cool & as i said before I’m a muppet so no worries here on my lack of writing skills eg mechanical broadhead so please ask as on discussing it we may both understand ea others part & by doing that the conversation & potential outcomes can grow/ improve

Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Fordy,
You wrote:
"Those pictures were from a 350 gr tsx in 375 cal out of my rum
Impact was around 15 yard & excited"

What was excited ?
You or the bullet or the buffalo ?
Did you mean to say the bullet exited ?

On a 15-yard impact, yes, the bullet is not yet gone to sleep so it might be considered to be "excited."
And if it exited on a shoulder shot that is pretty darn good work by an excited 350-gr/.375 TSX.

I think the well-designed FN solid (CEB and North Fork) have a self-correcting feature in the shoulder-stabilization by the FN meplat.
Corrects the yaw of an "excited" state.
Fast twist might help in the transition into an angled impact surface, and maybe inside a vapor bubble from supercavitation in front of and around that meplat.
Bullet speed (MV) makes any twist rate twist faster.
A shorter FN solid is inherently more stable than a longer one, whatever the MV and twist,
or no twist at all.

Expanding bullets: Longer/heavier/high-SD bullets expand better for a given velocity,
but they go slower.
Do they stay excited for longer distances traveled before going to sleep ?

No doubt a solid is always a good thing for the south end of a north bound buffalo.

 

[Riflecrank]

A bullet that can be used as either a monometal-brass-FN solid or a ballistic-tipped, hexploding, brass hollow point:
CEB 300-gr/308-gr/.458 ESP Raptor:

A hollow-based FN solid would add dart-stabilization to the shoulder-stabilization,
all of which are lacking in a round-nose solid.
Keep it under 2800 fps impact so the brass meplat does not expand.
I think that little bullet will punch above its weight class,
just like the CEB 400-gr/.458 Safari Solid at 2500 to 2600 fps from a .458 WIN MAG with 24" barrel,
2350 fps from a 16.9"-barreled .458 B&M+,
or even 2250 fps MV from a 20"-barreled .458 WSM impacting that rhino at 62 yards !

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank
Well the muppets spelling skills have shown through again

No worries & thanks for the correction & I’ll come back tonight on your above but your 2800 is a number I want to see

Here’s one pill that definitely didn’t go to sleep only this old girl did really quick & a
4 yard impact with the 475 raptor @ a poultry 2700 impact out of my Jeffery
Nothing like getting up close & personal imo
she rolled down the hill further than the shot x about 5 times further lol

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank I got sidetracked on a spelling bee competition lol

I was just on another thread showing a few good & bad examples so time I found the pics was a long night so I’ll have to come back & answer your questions the best I can later as I’m up in 4hrs to smack a few critters before my next full day starts & im “excited” on that lol yes got it right this time we’ll I hope so or more schooling I’ll get & one it’s cool & thankyou for doing it

Cheers