Need for Solids?

[Olivier]

Gday
Here’s a little bit for people to digest & see how we are so conditioned to what we are told & not look outside of the square


On looking @ these pictures below one is a hydro & one a Barnes both in 375

1st pic is Entry into the chest of a bovine of around 850/900 pounds
View attachment 705019
Exit side on inside of the chest View attachment 705015

So a solid does less damage than an expanding ??

Yes if we listen too what we are told & lead to believe by individuals or companies is the only way & we blindly follow the pied piper & don’t understand what we actually need for a chosen critter & how to apply it to the best of its ability , we will get no where near this that I can guarantee

Yes the hydro out preformed the Barnes easily well on what I saw lol

Barnes on left hydro on right in the pictures above

barnes 350 tsx
Hydro 235
With both not being slow as I’m a speed freak lol


Cheers

It looks like the Barnes are going through flesh, and the Solid is going through the bone of a rib... Wouldn't it be more appropriate for both to hit either bone or flesh?

 

[ftrovato]

Gday ftrovato

Good pic up sir got me looking a little more so thankyou but not quite dead but dead on feet i guess you could call it ? i believe was basically so yes I guess as it just kinda froze on impact of the hydro & then wobbled a touch as I put the Barnes in it as it dropped ( I don’t know probably 4 to 6 seconds between shots) here’s another pic of entry & that shows way less than normal blood splash or Barnes types of wounds View attachment 706036

The interesting part of this was the lungs also as they had no colour of a normal type of wound ( sorry don’t have pics of those )
Now I need to delve a little deeper here to hopefully answer some parts while others I’ve got no idea & only a theory so anyone else know the finer details please speak up

Overall you see more blood shot meat /bruising or bloody layers ( I guess that’s what your referring to as haemorrhaging ) from cup & core bullets than the monos
Now you’ll see some extremely clean wounds with the earlier hammer bullets but todays you see more bloodshot meat this I believe is from 2 different systems of killing

One is the hydraulic action that for better words is like a air compressor has blown the critter up & the nervous system has gone into shock & the body as a self defense mechanism stops everything working but I think this air compressor effect pushes the blood away from the wound site & hence you get very clean wounds heres some others in various critters
View attachment 706023View attachment 706024View attachment 706027

Now the part that’s fascinating to me on this one is Barnes don’t usually produce a clean wound & act more like the hydro on the right to more bruises again like the bonded but not as much as some non bonded pills as these seem to crush the meat not cut it & I know I’ve got better pictures than these but please excuse me for not being thorough enough View attachment 706026View attachment 706025

Todays hammer pills are very easy to follow wound paths unlike these of the hydraulic pills they use to be as was case here View attachment 706028


Now the other part you see a lot of bruising in /on meat is when the critters run & this one definitely didn’t run so that gives us a plus on that but still it’s a very clean wound
Now the position of the hydro cut a lot of stuff off @ the top of the pump house so could that have effected the part of no blood pressure in the back of those lungs & ribs ????

I just don’t know why or what occurred & be good for a little more clarity if you or anyone else has any ideas

Thanks for the pickup as now has me ticking & im going to do a little testing on this now & see if I can replicate those clean wounds again with the 350 Barnes?
Cheers

I suspect when the heart stops pumping new bruising doesn't occur anymore.

To your point, it's hard to prove that as a hunter.

I'd imagine when a heart has stopped and animal is standing dead on its feet, additional/new trauma will not occur.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Oliver

It looks like the Barnes are going through flesh, and the Solid is going through the bone of a rib... Wouldn't it be more appropriate for both to hit either bone or flesh?

You are correct on the different resistances creating different wounds

On the “more appropriate “ correct again
I do try & get as close as possible to same when evaluating differences in pills & I do multiple critters ( buff down as no luxury on elephant ) not just a one off like in the case we are talking about here as that was easier for me to show that than the talk as a picture tells a story with way more credibility than my words

On those contrary to what people may think I’ve seen the Barnes not produce the killing efficiency of the hydro in this case over & over again across multiple resistances & multiple species & sizes I did have a few photos in my phone of the differences & either deleted them or can’t find

But that’s easily fixed as soon as the situation becomes available , I’ll go shoot some critters & get more appropriate data to show why the solid works better under a different mindset of application

Not saying you have a different mindset as you made very valid points & I’ll agree on them hands down


Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday
sectional density ( SD ) is one that a lot still go off in choosing a bullet that is so called going to give better preformance due to a higher SD

Terminal sectional density (TSD ) is actually part of the key to understanding actuals

Here’s a few different examples

To the eagle eyes who may have noticed the calipers were measuring the same pill in different locations hmmm

where is the spot we take the measurements from ??? but more importantly what does this do terminally???

I’ve got no clue on where the measurements are taken on these & basically I halve the 2 to give a guesstimate but terminally I’ve got a way better understanding of what does what

Here’s better pictures of what I’m asking

I’ll start another thread on terminal sectional density ( not going to happen overnight sorry ) & overall where the old concept is outdated & one we can get into it more of a in-depth discussion that I’ll show the odd picture or 3 & to not derail this thread anymore

Cheers

 

[michael458]

After my hunt I was talking guns and bullets with the retired PH who actually owned the land upon which I had been hunting.
His opinion was that since the advent of the really good controlled expansion, mono copper bullets like the Barnes brand that he felt there really was no longer any real need for solids in the 375 caliber rifles and on up.
What’s your opinion?

I would say the fellow had been drinking too much kool aid?

Fact is, anyone with that opinion, many non shooter client hunters here with the same opinion are simply short sighted and misguided.

A "Properly Designed Solid" is the most important part of any serious Dangerous game endeavor, and even in many cases, non dangerous game as well.............

You see I state "Properly Designed"......... All Solids are NOT created equal. There is a world of difference in a Round Nose FMJ so called solid and a Flat Nose 65% meplat of caliber Solid, with all the proper design factors included. No comparison at all between those.

1. I have heard the statement "Premium expanding bullets are so good these days, you no longer need solids for Buffalo"..................

2. I have heard the statement "You should use Premium Expanding bullets for heart/lung shots on elephant and rhino because a solid just does not do enough damage"...................

These are statements made out of ignorance, and quite frankly inexperienced shooters. I draw a serious distinction between the terms "Hunter" & "Shooter"..............

When I started my hunting endeavors many years ago, I was green as could be when it came to the hunting. But I was not green to shooting, I was a shooter in many different aspects of the shooting world. I was totally amazed and bewildered when I met other hunters and would ask, questions like "What bullet are you using", loads, rifles, cartridges, all sorts of other details and the person would not have a clue? "No man, I bought it at the gun store, the guy said these bullets were the best"........ "My Gunsmith said this bullet was a real buffalo slammer".................."I don't know, friend of mine told me to use these".......... and it goes on and on. I was totally taken by surprise that someone going buffalo hunting knew so little about what they were shooting! I learned that some had never even fired their rifles until they were on site! Some had the PH sight the rifles in? This was absurd to me, I did not understand this mentality at all. This is not where I came from for sure.

Those people would not be qualified as "Shooters"............... And the knowledge base severely limited.

Others may be great hunters in the field, but have no real experience shooting. And the other way around as well. I am not a hunter, I never hunted to Hunt! I hunted to SHOOT. Do keep in mind however, with that statement said, I enjoyed being in the field just as much as anyone, but my purpose for being there was different. I did not go to the field to hunt the biggest trophy whatever that was out there, I went to do the shooting, every round I fired and animal taken was a trophy to me, I never carried a measuring tape. I was testing bullets, rifles, cartridges and theories of rifles, bullets and cartridges............ Did I enjoy the hunt, the adventure and the endeavor? Of course I did, just the same as every single one of you do, but the purpose was different. Once I had accomplished all I wanted to do with the shooting part....... I retired from hunting. I no longer desired or needed it.

To say "Solids are no Longer Needed", is simply ignorance at play.

What is a Solids Purpose?

To penetrate deep and straight, to overcome obstacles that may be in the way, to give depth of penetration that no conventional or non conventional Trauma Inflicting bullet can accomplish. While Proper Solids can be used as a Primary First Shot Bullet, that is not normally the case or the Primary Purpose of the Solid. The Primary Purpose of the Solid is to follow up after that first so called Perfect Shot is taken with the Trauma Inflicting bullet. The next shot taken will not be that perfect shot! There are hundreds of difference scenarios that might come up, lets say buffalo, 1st shot buffalo runs, most of the time away from you, your shot is in the South End of a North Bound buffalo, and that is several feet of penetration needed to reach vitals, or a serious heavy constructed bullet to hit and break bone down and continue on its path. Only a proper designed FN Solid can accomplish this mission. Your second shot may be through brush, limbs and even trees, it will be fast and furious and you won't have time to pick the perfect shot. Only a proper designed solid has a chance to accomplish this mission.

I mentioned above about using a Proper designed solid as a Primary Bullet. First shot fired! To me, this is very desirable with cartridges of limited capacity and velocity. The big Flat Nose Solid can penetrate where conventional and non conventional Trauma bullets cannot. When using a limited capacity cartridge, your bullets are also limited, a big FN Solid can get you where you need to go, without compromising penetration. I would look hard for this ability in various Lever Gun cartridges.

Elephant? Really, there can't be any question about that, not from any knowledgeable person. Solids.... Proper Designed Solids........... End of story............

Recently a statement was made about using a premium expanding bullet on a rhino. This person used an inferior solid on rhino, did not do the job and ended up chasing it for however far and however long. Figured his problem was not his shooting ability or knowledge of proper solids, but it must have been that solid bullets are not any good, so to fix that, use a expanding bullet! Yeah, OK............. another example of ignorance. I am going to show you below, how a Serious Shooter handles a rhino with a serious bullet.

Now there is this ignorant habit of inexperienced shooters/hunters thinking they shoot one time, sit back and see the great results of their marksmanship abilities! Shoot one time and Stop and Admire? That is STUPID, capital STUPID. They read to many "Sniper" books and fancy themselves something they are not!

An experienced shooter never stops shooting until one of the below factors takes over;
You Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore;
1. You no longer have target in sight and no shot!
2. You have no more ammo!
3. Your problem is solved...... Your target is down.........and even then you shoot one more time, pay the insurance! In addition you approach ready to shoot more if needed!

Below is how an Experienced and Skilled Shooter handles a Rhino...... and this could just as easily be elephant, buffalo, hippo, bear, lion and much more...............This came to me in the last couple of days. The bullet used in this was the new 400 CEB Safari Solid in .458 caliber, which I had done not too long ago.

This Shooter is using a 458 WSM, somewhat limited, but not severely so. He Hand Loads, capable of making his own from prepping the brass, to load data, and proper choice of the bullet for the mission at hand. He shoots a lot, preps his rifle, sights and cartridge so that he knows he can be successful in the endeavor. He knows his rifle, cartridge and bullet capabilities. And these are the results of this and how he accomplished it.

The load was a 400 CEB #13 Solid at 2250 fps. The dance started at 62 yards. (A little long for my tastes to be honest) Below a description of each shot fired. Take note, our Pro Shooter did not sit and wait or admire his first shot....... He went to work and solved the problem.

Shot 1 – Frontal in between neck and shoulder. Went through the heart. Stopped just before the hip joint if you will. Buckled the front legs well. But turned and tried to run.

Shot 2 – Left side, fully broadside, high lung shot only one lung. Pass through.

Shot 3 – Left side, fully broadside, both lungs, stuck in opposite side rib. Fell down on it’s side 30 feet from where it started.

Shot 4 – Center Sternum, stopped moving Never recovered the bullet.

Shot 5 - Little further up, under the arm pit, lodged in opposite shoulder at the top.

As I see this I believe shot 4 and 5 were paying the insurance. Our Pro Shooter fired 1-3 to get the target down in a timely manner, with target never moving further than 30 ft from the beginning of the dance! This is how you handle a Problem, once you start that dance!

Now, I want you to look closely at this photo, your attention is drawn to the lower shot, with the trickle of blood running out.......... But look a little higher and you will also see that wonderful cookie cutter wad cutter hole that is so typical of a nice Flat nose Solid, leaving a full caliber hole in the thick skin. These do not close up like you would see with a sorry Round Nose design...........

And of course what also made this a very successful hunt, THE BULLET........... Do remember that at least 2 exited the broadside shots........... I never measured a rhino in length, and this one was a full grown version, looks pretty long to me................

There are many good reasons to be in possession of properly designed Solids for every endeavor in the field, and there are NO good reasons for not having them.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I would say the fellow had been drinking too much kool aid?

Fact is, anyone with that opinion, many non shooter client hunters here with the same opinion are simply short sighted and misguided.

A "Properly Designed Solid" is the most important part of any serious Dangerous game endeavor, and even in many cases, non dangerous game as well.............

You see I state "Properly Designed"......... All Solids are NOT created equal. There is a world of difference in a Round Nose FMJ so called solid and a Flat Nose 65% meplat of caliber Solid, with all the proper design factors included. No comparison at all between those.

1. I have heard the statement "Premium expanding bullets are so good these days, you no longer need solids for Buffalo"..................

2. I have heard the statement "You should use Premium Expanding bullets for heart/lung shots on elephant and rhino because a solid just does not do enough damage"...................

These are statements made out of ignorance, and quite frankly inexperienced shooters. I draw a serious distinction between the terms "Hunter" & "Shooter"..............

When I started my hunting endeavors many years ago, I was green as could be when it came to the hunting. But I was not green to shooting, I was a shooter in many different aspects of the shooting world. I was totally amazed and bewildered when I met other hunters and would ask, questions like "What bullet are you using", loads, rifles, cartridges, all sorts of other details and the person would not have a clue? "No man, I bought it at the gun store, the guy said these bullets were the best"........ "My Gunsmith said this bullet was a real buffalo slammer".................."I don't know, friend of mine told me to use these".......... and it goes on and on. I was totally taken by surprise that someone going buffalo hunting knew so little about what they were shooting! I learned that some had never even fired their rifles until they were on site! Some had the PH sight the rifles in? This was absurd to me, I did not understand this mentality at all. This is not where I came from for sure.

Those people would not be qualified as "Shooters"............... And the knowledge base severely limited.

Others may be great hunters in the field, but have no real experience shooting. And the other way around as well. I am not a hunter, I never hunted to Hunt! I hunted to SHOOT. Do keep in mind however, with that statement said, I enjoyed being in the field just as much as anyone, but my purpose for being there was different. I did not go to the field to hunt the biggest trophy whatever that was out there, I went to do the shooting, every round I fired and animal taken was a trophy to me, I never carried a measuring tape. I was testing bullets, rifles, cartridges and theories of rifles, bullets and cartridges............ Did I enjoy the hunt, the adventure and the endeavor? Of course I did, just the same as every single one of you do, but the purpose was different. Once I had accomplished all I wanted to do with the shooting part....... I retired from hunting. I no longer desired or needed it.

To say "Solids are no Longer Needed", is simply ignorance at play.

What is a Solids Purpose?

To penetrate deep and straight, to overcome obstacles that may be in the way, to give depth of penetration that no conventional or non conventional Trauma Inflicting bullet can accomplish. While Proper Solids can be used as a Primary First Shot Bullet, that is not normally the case or the Primary Purpose of the Solid. The Primary Purpose of the Solid is to follow up after that first so called Perfect Shot is taken with the Trauma Inflicting bullet. The next shot taken will not be that perfect shot! There are hundreds of difference scenarios that might come up, lets say buffalo, 1st shot buffalo runs, most of the time away from you, your shot is in the South End of a North Bound buffalo, and that is several feet of penetration needed to reach vitals, or a serious heavy constructed bullet to hit and break bone down and continue on its path. Only a proper designed FN Solid can accomplish this mission. Your second shot may be through brush, limbs and even trees, it will be fast and furious and you won't have time to pick the perfect shot. Only a proper designed solid has a chance to accomplish this mission.

I mentioned above about using a Proper designed solid as a Primary Bullet. First shot fired! To me, this is very desirable with cartridges of limited capacity and velocity. The big Flat Nose Solid can penetrate where conventional and non conventional Trauma bullets cannot. When using a limited capacity cartridge, your bullets are also limited, a big FN Solid can get you where you need to go, without compromising penetration. I would look hard for this ability in various Lever Gun cartridges.

Elephant? Really, there can't be any question about that, not from any knowledgeable person. Solids.... Proper Designed Solids........... End of story............

Recently a statement was made about using a premium expanding bullet on a rhino. This person used an inferior solid on rhino, did not do the job and ended up chasing it for however far and however long. Figured his problem was not his shooting ability or knowledge of proper solids, but it must have been that solid bullets are not any good, so to fix that, use a expanding bullet! Yeah, OK............. another example of ignorance. I am going to show you below, how a Serious Shooter handles a rhino with a serious bullet.

Now there is this ignorant habit of inexperienced shooters/hunters thinking they shoot one time, sit back and see the great results of their marksmanship abilities! Shoot one time and Stop and Admire? That is STUPID, capital STUPID. They read to many "Sniper" books and fancy themselves something they are not!

An experienced shooter never stops shooting until one of the below factors takes over;
You Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore;
1. You no longer have target in sight and no shot!
2. You have no more ammo!
3. Your problem is solved...... Your target is down.........and even then you shoot one more time, pay the insurance! In addition you approach ready to shoot more if needed!

Below is how an Experienced and Skilled Shooter handles a Rhino...... and this could just as easily be elephant, buffalo, hippo, bear, lion and much more...............This came to me in the last couple of days. The bullet used in this was the new 400 CEB Safari Solid in .458 caliber, which I had done not too long ago.

This Shooter is using a 458 WSM, somewhat limited, but not severely so. He Hand Loads, capable of making his own from prepping the brass, to load data, and proper choice of the bullet for the mission at hand. He shoots a lot, preps his rifle, sights and cartridge so that he knows he can be successful in the endeavor. He knows his rifle, cartridge and bullet capabilities. And these are the results of this and how he accomplished it.

The load was a 400 CEB #13 Solid at 2250 fps. The dance started at 62 yards. (A little long for my tastes to be honest) Below a description of each shot fired. Take note, our Pro Shooter did not sit and wait or admire his first shot....... He went to work and solved the problem.

Shot 1 – Frontal in between neck and shoulder. Went through the heart. Stopped just before the hip joint if you will. Buckled the front legs well. But turned and tried to run.

Shot 2 – Left side, fully broadside, high lung shot only one lung. Pass through.

Shot 3 – Left side, fully broadside, both lungs, stuck in opposite side rib. Fell down on it’s side 30 feet from where it started.

Shot 4 – Center Sternum, stopped moving Never recovered the bullet.

Shot 5 - Little further up, under the arm pit, lodged in opposite shoulder at the top.

As I see this I believe shot 4 and 5 were paying the insurance. Our Pro Shooter fired 1-3 to get the target down in a timely manner, with target never moving further than 30 ft from the beginning of the dance! This is how you handle a Problem, once you start that dance!

View attachment 707003

Now, I want you to look closely at this photo, your attention is drawn to the lower shot, with the trickle of blood running out.......... But look a little higher and you will also see that wonderful cookie cutter wad cutter hole that is so typical of a nice Flat nose Solid, leaving a full caliber hole in the thick skin. These do not close up like you would see with a sorry Round Nose design...........

View attachment 706999

View attachment 707001

View attachment 706998

And of course what also made this a very successful hunt, THE BULLET........... Do remember that at least 2 exited the broadside shots........... I never measured a rhino in length, and this one was a full grown version, looks pretty long to me................

View attachment 707005

There are many good reasons to be in possession of properly designed Solids for every endeavor in the field, and there are NO good reasons for not having them.

Completely Agree!

HH