Moral dilemma

[John Wasmuth]

The road to hell is paved with the best intentions. I’d say nothing because you will end up the bad guy no matter which way it goes. If the font score they’ll likely be upset that you didn’t stop them, if they score big you’ll be told you were just jealous they didn’t use you again. Either way, you’ll be the bad guy. Not your circus, not your monkeys.

 

[AZDAVE]

Your caring says a lot about your character! However there is no upside for you period.

Some lessons are learned the hard way. So I think you are right is telling them your will gladly meet them for lunch or dinner and enjoy that time with them.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Wishful thinking on my part to believe...? I posed this as a possibility, no more.

Sometimes doing the right (moral?) thing requires some risk of personal expense. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil requiring good men to do nothing and all that.
I empathise with Victor on this thorny issue.

I empathize with Victor as well and commend him for giving a damn. I also agree that not every act has to be for personal benefit alone.

I think I explained the concept of wishful thinking regarding the hunter. From the hunters past behaviour I would not expect an insightful response to the news. No one can believe the hunter will dance for joy at being told he has made a purchase from a known/suspected disreputable Outfitter.

Devils advocate route.
Why stop at informing this one hunter?
If the big concern here is controlling "Evil", wouldn't a new thread detailing all the issues regarding this bad Outfitter, including references to the reports filed with PHASA, Nature Conservation and SAPS be forthcoming?

How will this information benefit the hunter now?
Allow him to cancel.
Allow him to be more wary of the Outfitter when he arrives in SA.
??

Good luck Victor, no matter what you decide.

 

[Tanks]

If you were not a competitor to the other outfitter I'd say go and warn them. However, in your particular situation I see no benefit to you. Also, the other outfitter might not have a good reaction to your intervention on his business and you all live there.

 

[MTA]

You caring about past clients is an integrity move. I'd want to know personally but everyone is different. In this particular situation though, I think they need to find this out for themselves

 

[kdenn]

Caveat emptor! Lot's of life's lessons are painful.

 

[Scott CWO]

People don’t like being told they are wrong. Especially if they feel they put their due diligence in. I’d be happy to hear feedback from a friend I see everyday but coming from the competition would just come off wrong. If they go and have a great experience with this outfitter, his reputation with them would be permanently damaged as well. Most people in this situation have already committed themselves to the shipwreck and aren’t going to change their minds. We also don’t know all the information from all 3 sides, regardless of the best intentions.

This is absolutely correct. Reminds me of a situation way back in 1995 that I got involved in. After the bighorn sheep draw for licenses was complete, I reached out to a doctor from Ohio who had drawn the only nonresident license offered in the unit I live in. He told me he was already booked with another outfitter who had told him to apply in the unit. He told me the other outfitter’s name and I recognized it as someone who had been in trouble before for hunting in a unit he was not authorized in. I told the hunter that his chosen outfitter did not have an outfitting permit from the Forest Service for this unit. He didn’t believe me. I then called the FS to confirm and double check. I was correct, the other outfitter did not have a permit for the unit. After the hunter called the illegal outfitter, the illegal outfitter then contacted the FS to try to get a permit but was turned away. I was then somehow turned into the bad guy in their minds. I learned that if you’re the bearer of bad news, you become the bad guy sometimes.

I remained polite to the hunter and he actually called me again a couple weeks before the season and booked with me. Even though he got the biggest ram of the six killed that year in the unit, he was a total PIA and doubted everything I did. He even questioned whether he would have gotten a bigger ram with the other outfitter. After all the results were tallied, I sent him the harvest reports from that unit showing that his ram was clearly the biggest that year out of six rams taken. Later, he called me and apologized and said he wanted to apply for moose in one of my areas. I politely said no thanks, that I didn’t wish to hunt with him again and wished him well. Lessons learned!

 

[Nevada Mike]

I would not denigrate the other outfitter, but would, perhaps, suggest an alternative outfitter that you trust to provide a good hunt in the same area & price range.

 

[Nyati]

I would not denigrate the other outfitter, but would, perhaps, suggest an alternative outfitter that you trust to provide a good hunt in the same area & price range.

And what if the client books with the Oufitter you have recommended, and for some reason he is not really satisfied ?

Then who takes the blame ?

 

[freefall]

I would not denigrate the other outfitter, but would, perhaps, suggest an alternative outfitter that you trust to provide a good hunt in the same area & price range.

The very act of suggesting an alternative is a negative on their choice.
For the last 20 years I worked for a water treatment company. We refused to make negative comments on our competitors, tho we knew full well such courtesy was not reciprocated. It MAY have cost us a little business, but I feel it enhanced our reputation as an honourable company.
I will reiterate, NO GOOD comes of bad-mouthing your competitors.
For those of you who feel one SHOULD inform the client he's getting in bed with the devil, what would YOUR reaction be on being told such by the person you didn't book with? I'm betting you would regard it as petty back-biting by someone who felt entitled to your money.

 

[Vintageguy]

It says a lot of your character that you are concerned but if they didn’t ask for your opinion before hand and they didn’t book time to hunt with you while there then I wouldn’t feel like it would be wise to warn them. Due diligence is their responsibility in the end.
If you warn them they’ll likely still go anyway but with apprehension and if they are lucky enough to have a good experience then they may bite you as a case of sour grapes on your part.
I differ from many here. If an outfitter provides a great experience then I will definitely look at returning. I understand wanting to go to different places too though. I am currently planning a return trip with the same outfit as last trip but a different area, SCORE!
I also likely wouldn’t be able to hook up with them due to circumstances having me tied up. If they are close enough for that then they could have probably booked some time with you. I like the idea of being friends with an outfitter or other traveling hunters as much as the next person but many don’t seem to grasp that means things go both ways.

 

[Ridge Runner]

And what if the client books with the Oufitter you have recommended, and for some reason he is not really satisfied ?

Then who takes the blame ?

As related to my previous post.

Because their were old negative reviews of the PH/outfitter in Zimbabwe and a relative more recent hunt by my outfitter in South Africa, I rolled the dice that maybe the Zimbabwe outfitter was or might have been caught up in an out of his control circumstances and had became more ethical and I could help his reputation with a positive review/hunt report. Unfortunately this outfitter/PH has earned and maintains his bad reputation.

I chalked it up as the Zimbabwe outfitter gave my South Africa outfitter a good hunt so the Zimbabwe could attract unsuspecting client's.

My South Africa outfitter did help make the rest of my trip more enjoyable. When he read my hunt report and the threads from other AH members who shared their related bad experiences with this Zimbabwe outfitter, James emailed me with a better understanding and more regret that I had such a bad experience with what he believed to be a good outfitter from his own experience.

Thus we can all learn that sometimes a disreputable outfitter will often provide better service to a reputable fellow just to gain unsuspecting clients. Which can lead to damaging a good outfitter's reputation; "guilty by association".

Because I have hunted with James in South Africa more than once, all outstanding experiences; I did my research...not as well as I should have...yet I still chose to hire this Zimbabwe outfitter.

The question becomes whose really at fault? James for recommending the Zimbabwe outfitter?
Me for still hiring this Zimbabwe outfitter based on James' recommendation even though I had read several negative old reviews about this Zimbabwe outfitter? Would James had recommended or warned me about this outfitter had James known about the bad reputation this outfitter had?

My learning experience is from now on when an outfitter recommends another outfitter to be more inquisitive about their relationship and how long they've known each other before making a deposit or paying for a hunt.

 

[accipiter]

Would you be willing to share the name of the outfitter so everyone on this thread has a warning?

 

[freefall]

Would you be willing to share the name of the outfitter so everyone on this thread has a warning?

Sounds like he's been trying to avoid that. In his situation, I most definitely would not.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Gotta trust somebody...