Moral dilemma

[JimP]

I also wouldn't say anything.

It could be one of those things where you'll be dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

 

[Pheroze]

No good turn goes unpunished. There is no upside for you in this.

Now, perhaps if they are introduced to AH, they may look up your posts......

Seriously, I would wait to be the sympathetic ear they may need.

 

[MarkB]

I am same as most, do not say anything, they hunted only once with you, you have no obligation to them, they will live and learn. A courteous meet up after their safari I see no problem with if you wish, close no doors and that could be a new booking.

I have never hunted with any outfit more than once, mostly due to reasons already stated. I did contact a previous PH before I booked last safari but he was totally honest and stated he could not do what I asked for.

Good on you for coming on here with such a delicate issue.

MB

 

[trperk1]

If it was me I’d want to know. Even if I’d paid my deposit, with this insight I’d be more cautious. Otherwise I may be over trusting(normal for most of us)and get screwed.

 

[IdaRam]

Sometimes we find ourselves between a hard place and a rock. Seems like it’s your turn and that sucks. But I commend you for caring enough to ask for some advice. I’m with most of the rest of the folks who have suggested saying nothing. At least initially it would come across to the former clients poorly and be perceived as sour grapes I think. So I would view it like this, once they have experience with this other outfit they will be able to draw a comparison to the experience they had with you. They will probably have an even greater appreciation for the experience you provided them and be grateful for that experience. If it were to ever come up in future conversations about a negative experience they may have had with your competition I would just tell them you pride yourself on your professionalism and you do not bash the competition. Period. They are still your friends and you hope to hunt with them again one day, but it is every clients choice where they go and who they hunt with. Not within your purview to provide advice on booking with other outfitters. You‘re not a booking agent. If they can’t accept that in good spirit they may be better off with another outfitter.
Good luck and kind regards

 

[Traveler1]

I agree with a most the responses, don't say anything as it would come off as sour grapes.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

You caring about previous clients shows what kind of a person you are!
But I agree with others. Don't say anything. It is there choice and was there responsibility to check references and about the outfitter.

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

Thanks a mil for all your advice. it’s much appreciated. I’ve slept on it (albeit briefly). I’m going to wish them well with their hunt and let them know we can meet them for lunch near the airport on their return home.

Warning them would come across as sour grapes even though I genuinely am not. I do understand people are different, some like to return to hunt with an outfit they enjoyed before, others will never hunt with the same outfit twice no matter how good the experience was.

 

[HuntingGold]

I'm sitting here as a past client of yours and trying to think of how I would respond and I'd likely be very guarded; I'd listen to your concerns but consider it as sour grapes. However the seed would be planted then I'd go about looking into it to see what I could learn on my own. After that, it would be on me.

******
BTW: I'm in the camp of liking to see more country but when I put on the merino socks we bought in Plett.... great socks, I think that at some point I must go back for some of Lindsay's lamb shank... and get more socks.

I'd probably have to bring the 280 Ackley Improved to assist with some of the out of control springbok. I'd also have to get into better shape to walk the Klipspringer Mountain again just to prove I could do it better than the first time, and use fewer cartridges.

All the best to you and Lyndsay!

 

[BRICKBURN]

".......... if they’d asked me."
Do I warn them of the dangers of going on their trip with this outfitter...........

...... they haven’t done the necessary research prior to booking, or else they’ll see what everyone else already knows.

Victor, I'm glad that you are genuinely concerned for a fellow human being.

We are in fact all the indirect Outfitter police.
That is part of what we get from excellent hunt reports that tell the good, the bad and the ugly.

There are poor outfitters and some down right scum bags operating. If we do nothing.....

So many stories on AH about encounters where the hunter did ZERO research. "I bought this hunt at an auction." I feel for them and also shake my head.

How the hell does Juan Pace stay in the business? It amazes me.

What's the phrase attributed to PT Barnum..... "There's a sucker born every minute".
or Dr. Bridges "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Sadly, informing them of their poor decision will only pit you against their ego. Plenty of egos can not take that challenge.

If they were truly your "best friend", I would tell you to call them up and ask them if they had lost their damned minds and to cut their losses now and find a reputable Outfitter.

As you noted; THEY DID NOT ASK YOU!

Enjoy your lunch at the Airport!

 

[PeteG]

I see this from a different perspective possibly.
I would advise them that the outfitter they’ve booked with does not have a good reputation at this current time due to whatever reasons and I’d offer to help point them to another reputable outfitter (not yourself because possibly they want to experience something different).
I would tell them you’re concerned for their sake and it’s up to them to take or leave your advice.
I would also do this for the reason that if they find out you know the outfitter has a problem and you declined to say anything they will likely never book to talk with you again as it will be seen that you let them have a bad hunt out of spite for not booking with them.
as someone noted above, you are between a rock and a hard place.

many have said you do not have an obligation to help them and I agree, but I feel it is merely a good moral standing to look out for someone who is possibly making a mistake.
If I were a client and had been spun a starry story of an amazing hunt by an outfitter and someone knew but didn’t tell me that it was nonsense. I’d be more pissed off with him for not saying so and bringing me back to reality.

 

[Desperatezulu]

This is a textbook dilemma for sure...

A couple of alternative points to ponder:
- Victor contributed to these folks returning to hunt in his area. They had a great experience and now they're branching out. If their previous experience had been poor, they would not be booking with anyone in the Eastern Cape in all probability. If they now have a $hitty experience, will they ever be back? Will they shout from the rooftops that the Eastern Cape is a prime hunting location or to be avoided? Who are the losers in such a scenario - Victor and the other excellent E Cape operators? The whole South African hunting sector? Or just the bad egg?

My opinion based on what I've read here is that you probably do need to say something - the actual question is how to do this with the minimum damage.

Maybe it's a case of reaching out and laying your cards on the table and stating that you know you may be tarnishing their previous experience with you and even losing their (and any of their acquaintances) future business, however as an upstanding outfitter in the area and someone that holds these folks in high regard after their previous hunt with you, you feel that they need to have more info to at least be making a fully-informed choice. You also understand how this may look to them and if that costs you their future support, then so be it but as a good human who considers these people your friends you need to share what you know.

Another way of looking at this is if a disaster is inevitable, then you really have little to lose - in which case doing the right thing will at least help you sleep better. Maybe these people have the EQ to recognise how tricky this has been for you and the actual outcome of your intervention is a positive one.

The advice to leave these people to their own fate may be valid in the corporate world but the outfitting industry is much more personal and I am not sure that being so hard-nosed is smart in the long run.
After all, how many members on this site would expect their doctor/lawyer/therapist/golf pro to free up time and meet them for lunch gratis when they're passing through town? Yet (good) outfitters give up their time like this frequently.

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

I'm sitting here as a past client of yours and trying to think of how I would respond and I'd likely be very guarded; I'd listen to your concerns but consider it as sour grapes. However the seed would be planted then I'd go about looking into it to see what I could learn on my own. After that, it would be on me.

******
BTW: I'm in the camp of liking to see more country but when I put on the merino socks we bought in Plett.... great socks, I think that at some point I must go back for some of Lindsay's lamb shank... and get more socks.

I'd probably have to bring the 280 Ackley Improved to assist with some of the out of control springbok. I'd also have to get into better shape to walk the Klipspringer Mountain again just to prove I could do it better than the first time, and use fewer cartridges. View attachment 515865

All the best to you and Lyndsay!

Good advice Randy. Thank you. I have a bigger mountain for you with Vaal Rhebuck on . You were honestly fine on the klipspringer hunt - you're too hard on yourself.

All the best to you and Shannon - hope you've got her hunting more, she's very light on ammo.

 

[mark-hunter]

A} wish them well on their hunt
B} tell them they’re about to make a huge mistake.

Nothing much you can do.
Wish them well on their hunt. Tell them any next time they are welcome at your venue.

 

[Ridge Runner]

My experience, I hunt with the same outfitter in South Africa. I wanted to hunt a DG hunt that my South Africa outfitter couldn't provide but advised me he had a good hunt with a Zimbabwe outfitter and this outfitter could provide me the DG animal I wanted to hunt.

The suggested Zimbabwe outfitter is a disreputable outfitter and I advised my South Africa outfitter of my experience as well as posted my experience here on AH which several other members responded of having their own bad experiences with this outfitter.

I still hunt with my South Africa outfitter and will continue to hunt and recommend him to others. I won't recommend the Zimbabwe outfitter.

I would recommend to you to have a get together somewhere other than at the other outfitter's location and in a settle/casual way ask what made them choose or drew them to this particular outfitter? Why their previous clients would or would not recommended them? Posing the questions in manner like you want to improve your own operation and making sure future prospective clients have easy/easier access to previous clients reviews and recommendations.

This way you aren't being directly negative toward their current outfitter and suggesting they may need to review thier choice of outfitter and maybe look for an alternative outfitter in that area.

 

[BRICKBURN]

This is a textbook dilemma for sure...

A couple of alternative points to ponder:
- Victor contributed to these folks returning to hunt in his area. They had a great experience and now they're branching out. If their previous experience had been poor, they would not be booking with anyone in the Eastern Cape in all probability. If they now have a $hitty experience, will they ever be back? Will they shout from the rooftops that the Eastern Cape is a prime hunting location or to be avoided? Who are the losers in such a scenario - Victor and the other excellent E Cape operators? The whole South African hunting sector? Or just the bad egg?

My opinion based on what I've read here is that you probably do need to say something - the actual question is how to do this with the minimum damage.

Maybe it's a case of reaching out and laying your cards on the table and stating that you know you may be tarnishing their previous experience with you and even losing their (and any of their acquaintances) future business, however as an upstanding outfitter in the area and someone that holds these folks in high regard after their previous hunt with you, you feel that they need to have more info to at least be making a fully-informed choice. You also understand how this may look to them and if that costs you their future support, then so be it but as a good human who considers these people your friends you need to share what you know.

Another way of looking at this is if a disaster is inevitable, then you really have little to lose - in which case doing the right thing will at least help you sleep better. Maybe these people have the EQ to recognise how tricky this has been for you and the actual outcome of your intervention is a positive one.

The advice to leave these people to their own fate may be valid in the corporate world but the outfitting industry is much more personal and I am not sure that being so hard-nosed is smart in the long run.
After all, how many members on this site would expect their doctor/lawyer/therapist/golf pro to free up time and meet them for lunch gratis when they're passing through town? Yet (good) outfitters give up their time like this frequently.

Just for giggles, it's an interesting discussion ......

What does Victor know are the facts about this Outfitter? Not rumours or gossip.
If someone is losing sleep because of this operator in the EC ruining brand SA then why have the police or PHASA or Nature Conservation not been called to investigate? No laws broken? No proof?
He's only ripping strangers off so there was no need to act before this? (A long list of victims is much more likely to cause disrepute for brand SA) Where is the line for action?

Why is Victor, or anyone else for that matter, not creating a thread right here and sharing it with the world, if this muppet is so bad?

It is wishful thinking on your part to believe that someone who skipped any reasonable amount of research (did not even consult Victor for his expertise), is going to be insightful enough to take the negative information after the fact.

Apples and oranges comparison for Doctors and therapists. Those professionals will be losing their licenses by heading out for lunch with a patient. Friends are not patients.
Lawyers and golf pros might be able to pull lunch off as marketing, just like an Outfitter. Guess that choice depends on the repeat business expected.

If you are actually friends, I think the plan for lunch would have been made when you booked the rental car in order to drop by Victor's house for dinner.

Further, It seems rather bizarre to me that a "friend" would not talk to me about a field in which I am expert before making a decision. Perhaps they are not really friends!

 

[Desperatezulu]

It is wishful thinking on your part to believe that someone who skipped any reasonable amount of research (did not even consult Victor for his expertise), is going to be insightful enough to take the negative information after the fact.

Wishful thinking on my part to believe...? I posed this as a possibility, no more.

Sometimes doing the right (moral?) thing requires some risk of personal expense. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil requiring good men to do nothing and all that.
I empathise with Victor on this thorny issue.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

this is really interesting on this conundrum that outfitters face all the time. must say i am surprised at most of the "client" responses here to keep quiet or not intervene
if you were those people wouldnt you want someone to tell you about the incumbent shipwreck

i would just say i am more than happy to catchup but not at that oufitters place, and offer a polite, if you need any help or run into a situation of any kind they can call you to help out. and you will do your best.

wish them all the best on their hunt.

one thing most outfitters battle with, is, we dont own the clients, once a clients has hunted with your operation, they are free to go wherever they like, hell we all love returning customers but a lot of people yearn for something different and others love things to be the same, each to their own.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

If they're going to be hunting with this outfitter soon they likely have a considerable deposit in place, plus travel expenses and time off from work.

It is too late to help them now. Best not to say anything and hope for the best.

I was in a service business for many years, we worked hard to provide personal service and it hurt when a client went to another business. I found I usually got them back as clients when they had something to compare to.

 

[375Fox]

this is really interesting on this conundrum that outfitters face all the time. must say i am surprised at most of the "client" responses here to keep quiet or not intervene
if you were those people wouldnt you want someone to tell you about the incumbent shipwreck

People don’t like being told they are wrong. Especially if they feel they put their due diligence in. I’d be happy to hear feedback from a friend I see everyday but coming from the competition would just come off wrong. If they go and have a great experience with this outfitter, his reputation with them would be permanently damaged as well. Most people in this situation have already committed themselves to the shipwreck and aren’t going to change their minds. We also don’t know all the information from all 3 sides, regardless of the best intentions.