mono vs lead for Cape Buffalo?

[Pondoro]

This drawing shows the proper angle of the heart. The plumbing comes out towards the neck. More importantly the Sinus Node is nestled in the junction Aorta, Vena Cava.

Shoot straight up the leg of most NA and African animals. Not behind it. A hair forward destroys the leg. A hair high is spine. Many shoot way too high on ungulates.

The top of the heart is almost instant death. A hole through the lower heart is a 100 yard proposition.

The blue circle is a good aim point
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It is a lot about right bullet placement.. But that said..after hunting buffalo with my .470 double and watch its devastating effect on buff, I would not personally contemplate using a .375H&H. Period. Its not that the .375H&H do the job..but the extra safety margin is there big time..

Besides, at 62, I am getting too old to run..worn knees etc..

 

[grand veneur]

The caliber used must also be taken into account. A double lung shot with a 375 H&H Magnum cartridge is not comparable to a double lung shot with a 460 Weatherby Magnum cartridge, assuming the use of the same kind of bullet.

 

[Philip Glass]

While I agree with Philip Swift A Frames aren’t a bad second

Yes sir. That is a fact.

 

[pilar]

It is a lot about right bullet placement.. But that said..after hunting buffalo with my .470 double and watch its devastating effect on buff, I would not personally contemplate using a .375H&H. Period. Its not that the .375H&H do the job..but the extra safety margin is there big time..

Besides, at 62, I am getting too old to run..worn knees etc..

Yeah a nice 470 double is what my buddy John and his son use,
“ no replacement for displacement “ on the big stuff, but you still gotta hit ‘em in the zone with the right stuff ! Or pay the price of a long walk or something worse.

 

[375Ruger416]

It is a lot about right bullet placement.. But that said..after hunting buffalo with my .470 double and watch its devastating effect on buff, I would not personally contemplate using a .375H&H. Period. Its not that the .375H&H do the job..but the extra safety margin is there big time..

Besides, at 62, I am getting too old to run..worn knees etc..

From everything I’ve read from PH’s and experienced buffalo hunters, it all comes down to good initial shot placement with an adequate caliber. The biggest failure point is poor shot placement by the client which is more likely with a larger ccrtridge and an unfamiliar action.

No question, the 470 NE is a great DG cartridge, but to suggest you wouldn’t consider using a 375 H&H is likely saying you wouldn’t use a 30/06 for deer. In all likelihood, more buffalo have been taken with a 375 H&H or a 9.3x62 than any other cartridges.

 

[grand veneur]

#102

@375Ruger416

When you distribute dislike's, you should also post why !

...but I'm not offended, I am used to it when it comes to cartridges and bullets.

 

[pilar]

#102

@375Ruger416

When you distribute dislike's, you should also post why !

...but I'm not offended, I am used to it when it comes to cartridges and bullets.

Amen amigo!
Talking cartridges and bullets

“”it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair”

 

[375Ruger416]

The caliber used must also be taken into account. A double lung shot with a 375 H&H Magnum cartridge is not comparable to a double lung shot with a 460 Weatherby Magnum cartridge, assuming the use of the same kind of bullet.

Cartridge matters and I believe in using ‘enough gun’. However, there is a point of diminishing returns. Some cartridges, like the 404J, have a reputation for killing out of proportion with their recoil and cartridge size. IMO, the Weatherby DG cartridges have recoil out of proportion with their terminal effect.

As Kevin Robertson emphasizes in the Perfect Shot II, he has seen more game wounded or just cleanly missed with weatherby DG cartridges than any other. Their muzzle blast is increased, they need a 26” barrel to get optimum velocity, and high impact velocities increase the risk of bullet failure.

I’m a fan of the Weatherby cartridges, but once you get above the 300 Weatherby the benefit/cost ratio is much less favorable.

 

[One Day...]

#102

@375Ruger416

When you distribute dislike's, you should also post why !

...but I'm not offended, I am used to it when it comes to cartridges and bullets.

I am going to speculate grand veneur, that 375Ruger416's comment is an example of .460 Wby copy / paste, read & repeat, dislike.......

The simplest way to test this hypothesis would be to change the statement with:

"A double lung shot with a 375 H&H Magnum cartridge is not comparable to a double lung shot with a .458 Lott cartridge, assuming the use of the same kind of bullet."​

​

With the "culturally correct" bad-mouthing of the Weatherby taken out of the mix, I just can't wait to hear someone argue that a double lung shot with a 375 H&H is more effective on Buff than a double lung shot with a .458 Lott, assuming the use of the same kind of bullet


And since we are at it, people actually in the know do not confuse the .378 Wby with the .460 Wby when it comes to Weatherby cartridges reputation in Africa. The bad reputation generally came from the .378 Wby due to its fearsome recoil (much faster and more brutal than the .460 Wby) and mostly from its unnecessary and actually counterproductive (in terms of bullets of those days performance) hyper velocity.

And it is factual that this bad reputation is justified, and was richly earned by a bunch of American first time safari goers showing up in Africa with the fearsome .378 Wby (which HAD to be better than the .375 H&H, right!?!?!?), and scaring (and scarring ) themselves to death every time they pulled the trigger, hence leading to miss-the-barn-from-the-inside deplorable accuracy (or lack thereof), hence lost game, as we all agree that shot placement is indeed THE critical factor.

The .460 Wby is a well respected, extremely effective cartridge, actually favored by a number of PHs, and not all that fearsome to shoot from a reasonable weight rifle. It is interesting to note that the recent .450 Rigby, which is factually an unbelted .460 Wby*, is de facto a detuned .460 Wby (450 gr at 2,400 fps instead of 500 gr at 2,550 fps from a 24" barrel), and the .458 Lott rides in between them with 500 gr at 2,300 fps.

* Roy created his large case by belting the .416 Rigby (the parent case for the .450 Rigby), and for many years .460 Wby cases' belts were turned off by folks reloading the .416 Rigby.

Do not interpret the above as me advocating for the .460 Wby to be the best caliber for Africa, as its recoil is indeed above, and often considerably above, the tolerance threshold of most hunters, leading to poor shooting, but for those who can shoot it well, and there are a number of folks who can, the .460 Wby is indeed an awesome cartridge which has CONSIDERABLY more knockdown effect on Buffalo (and everything else) than the .375 H&H. Arguing against this would be silly

As for the many who cannot shoot the .460 Wby reliably, a .375 H&H is certainly a better choice, and for many of us, the .458 Lott seems a happy medium, not to mention the availability of ammo, and the ever present backup solution of being able to shoot common-as-African-dirt .458 Win

As to the original question: my own Buff medicine is TSX 500 gr, which I consider as a dual purpose expanding solid, from, you guessed it, .458 Lott loaded at full house, and no I do not use modern solids on Buff, it is just too risky for a client, but I can see the rationale for a PH who wants to punch out of the brisket a backup shot sent up the rear end... (and who does not worry about paying a trophy fee if he kills accidentally a second Buff ).

 

[grand veneur]

In fact, I just wanted to write that there is a difference when using a cartridge like thew 375 H&H Magnum or a cartridge of the 45 caliber class. I had the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum in front of my eyes because I shot several buffaloes with it, but I could also have written when using the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum, 458 Lott or 450 Rigby. Some people would maybe not have been upset.

 

[Mark R]

Swift A-Frame has a fantastic reputation and would be hard to beat. No solids aren’t usually recommended for Cape Buffalo due to herds encountered. Having said that, an A-Frame given heart/lung placement will kill faster than a similar sized solid. In a charge the point of the nose would be my first option given enough time. Remember, even with a good first shot, unless brain or spine is hit it ain’t going to be a drt drop to the shot.

 

[Red Leg]

In fact, I just wanted to write that there is a difference when using a cartridge like thew 375 H&H Magnum or a cartridge of the 45 caliber class. I had the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum in front of my eyes because I shot several buffaloes with it, but I could also have written when using the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum, 458 Lott or 450 Rigby. Some people would maybe not have been upset.

I absolutely agree but with one small and nevertheless important caveat. The bigger bullet is only useful if it is put in the right place to begin with. I have noted here previously the observation of my now old friend and former PH in Mozambique when he said that the only thing that really frightened him on safari was a client showing up with his brand new double on his first DG hunt. I am confident he would extend the observation to rifles with forty something bores.

I look at it as a choice between broadsword and rapier. Both can be very lethal and both can wound. I am personally quite accurate with my 500/416 and .404, but when I travel to Africa for a buffalo and PG, I choose the rapier in the form of a .375 and 300 gr A-Frame. It is simply the most useful option - particularly in the small travel form factor of an R8.

 

[One Day...]

Cartridge matters and I believe in using ‘enough gun’. However, there is a point of diminishing returns. Some cartridges, like the 404J, have a reputation for killing out of proportion with their recoil and cartridge size. IMO, the Weatherby DG cartridges have recoil out of proportion with their terminal effect.

As Kevin Robertson emphasizes in the Perfect Shot II, he has seen more game wounded or just cleanly missed with weatherby DG cartridges than any other. Their muzzle blast is increased, they need a 26” barrel to get optimum velocity, and high impact velocities increase the risk of bullet failure.

I’m a fan of the Weatherby cartridges, but once you get above the 300 Weatherby the benefit/cost ratio is much less favorable.

I agree that the .300 Wby is likely the most balanced Wby cartridge. I shoot mine with deadly effect out of a Blaser R8 barrel and have had flawless results with the 165 gr TTSX.

I also agree that the cost in recoil for performance improvement climbs exponentially as Weatherby caliber increases. I still like very much my stainless .340 Wby MkV for Moose, but it is already too much gun for many, although going down from 250 gr Nosler (my original load) to 225 gr TTSX reduces recoil noticeably (and penetrates deeper thanks to bullet technology improvement), and I will have to test one day Barnes owner's wife, Coni Brooks, devotion for the 185 gr TTSX .340 Wby: supposedly, the results are indistinguishable between the 185 gr TTSX and the 225 gr TTSX...

But my favorite Weatherby cartridge remains the .257 Wby with 100 gr TTSX. Unlike Roy I will not test it on Buff (a silly stunt if you ask me!), but it is a death ray AND Thor's own hammer on any and all small and medium PG and MG (mountains game), all the way to Elk and Kudu if you favor the behind-the-shoulder-double-lungs shot, which is my favorite shot, including in Africa, although I agree that the shot needs to be closer to the shoulder in Africa - but still just behind it, due to differences in anatomy.

And in another lane, like Red Leg, I will have no trepidation whatsoever taking the .375 H&H on Buff in the framework of a one-rifle safari, although - truth be told, more for intellectual laziness than any other factor - I favor the 300 gr TSX over the 300 gr AFrame due to the fact that I now only shoot TSX and TTSX for anything and everything.

But the R8 is marvelous, because 3 barrels & scopes nest comfortably in the airline compliant <62" linear and <50 lbs. Pelican 1700, therefore my .458 Lott barrel is on hand if Buff is on the menu, just in case he would not get the memo and go down nicely, preferring instead to try to rearrange my already imperfect anatomy, in which case I have immensely more trust in a .45 500 slugs to stop it than a .375 300 gr pill

 

[SStomcat]

It doesn’t matter if client fired first shot and wounded buffalo before? Both those videos are follow up on wounded buffalo. The outcomes are just very different. The first shot was taken sometime before either video started. I really have no idea what you are arguing and I don’t think you do either. Use a drone on follow up if you’d like. I’ll hunt with experienced PHs.

There is no point debating with you as you don't get it and I don't think you ever will. If your idea of an experienced PH is the one who takes the shot before the client takes it, so be it and I disagree. I have never said that drone hunting is right or I support it, but it does not change the fact that many SA PH are deploying them and that is what I wanted to mention.

 

[375Fox]

There is no point debating with you as you don't get it and I don't think you ever will. If your idea of an experienced PH is the one who takes the shot before the client takes it, so be it and I disagree. I have never said that drone hunting is right or I support it, but it does not change the fact that many SA PH are deploying them and that is what I wanted to mention.

Have you hunted buffalo before? I think you have a different idea in your head than the reality. I have not been in the situation but if I wound a Buffalo I tell my PHs to shoot if they get a chance on follow up. I don’t want to lose a wounded buffalo or get someone hurt by going into even thicker cover. You keep saying the PH fired when the client fired first several hours before. I’d recommend you have a discussion with your PH on follow up shots when you go on a buffalo hunt.

 

[SStomcat]

Have you hunted buffalo before? I think you have a different idea in your head than the reality. I have not been in the situation but if I wound a Buffalo I tell my PHs to shoot if they get a chance on follow up. I don’t want to lose a wounded buffalo or get someone hurt by going into even thicker cover. You keep saying the PH fired when the client fired first several hours before. I’d recommend you have a discussion with your PH on follow up shots when you go on a buffalo hunt.

This is what I call an exp of good tracking, exp PH and thick cover..

 

[375Fox]

This is what I call an exp of good tracking, exp PH and thick cover..

It is, except several of those scenes are staged for the camera. When you finally go buffalo hunting you’ll see it’s a team effort. Once I’ve put the first bullet in if the PH feels the need to put another bullet in it makes no difference to me, especially if it’s several hours of tracking later after an initial shot.

 

[SStomcat]

Have you hunted buffalo before? I think you have a different idea in your head than the reality. I have not been in the situation but if I wound a Buffalo I tell my PHs to shoot if they get a chance on follow up. I don’t want to lose a wounded buffalo or get someone hurt by going into even thicker cover. You keep saying the PH fired when the client fired first several hours before. I’d recommend you have a discussion with your PH on follow up shots when you go on a buffalo hunt.

Yes I have, you need to learn how to disagree agreeably, somehow you seem to have this in your head that you are always correct and anyone that has a different view is no good. You keep repeating that the client fired the shot hours earlier, that to me is meaningless, it is in this situation that matters and the PH was dead wrong to shoot first.
What you choose to do is your choice, and that applies to you and you only doesn't mean it becomes ubiquitous.

 

[375Fox]

Yes I have, you need to learn how to disagree agreeably, somehow you seem to have this in your head that you are always correct and anyone that has a different view is no good. You keep repeating that the client fired the shot hours earlier, that to me is meaningless, it is in this situation that matters and the PH was dead wrong to shoot first.
What you choose to do is your choice, and that applies to you and you only doesn't mean it becomes ubiquitous.

It’s easier to disagree agreeably when someone is honest. It took multiple posts for you to admit whether it’s a wounded buffalo or not you don’t want a PH firing at your buffalo. You do continue to incorrectly say the PH fired first to support your point through. Whatever point that is.

 

[SStomcat]

It’s easier to disagree agreeably when someone is honest. It took multiple posts for you to admit whether it’s a wounded buffalo or not you don’t want a PH firing at your buffalo. You do continue to incorrectly say the PH fired first to support your point through. Whatever point that is.

So now you are getting into personal attacks by insinuating that I'm dishonest. I'm not offended nor do I care but glad if it makes you feel a little better.