Medium bore white tail caliber

[JMV375]

6.5x55 - excellent

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Trust me, I have never met a 35 that won’t drop a deer within50 yards. I am a 35 looney for a reason.

@MS 9x56
Mate there's no such thing as a 35 loony.
35 owners are the intelligentsia of rife owners. We are the elite of the hunting world.
35 shooters own real hunting cartridges, all others just own rifles.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Depends how you’re killing an animal @Bert the Turtle and @MS 9x56.

A .243 can kill an animal instantly with hydrostatic shock. A 9.3x57 or 9x5x57 going slow and close (or a 35 whelen) can kill by slow-dumping its energy into an animal and burrowing a might big hole.

Some guns kill by hydro shock (all of Roy Weatherby’s rounds) whereas some light recoiling guns kill by “hang time” in the animal slowly transferring all the energy as they deplete to nothing. (6.5x55 and 7x57 are notorious for killing way above their advertised specs). 9.3 and 9.5x57 are also real killers for close work. I’m told so is 35 Rem although I don’t own and have never owned one. Certainly a 35 whelen pushing a 320 grain Woodleigh would be like shooting a mortar into a deer.

@rookhawk
Mate the only way a 243 can kill an animal that quick is if you get a good s wing up And hit it in the head with the but.
As others have said the Whelen with 200gr superformance ammo dumbstruck deer on there arse right there. Does a lot of damage but dead is dead.
Roy Weatherby was a great believer in hydrostatic shock but look at the speeds his cartridges are doing.
Sorry to say but the 243 can't reach those speeds and dare I say if tou chronoed the 243 with 95 to 100gn projectiles out of the average 22 inch sporter you would be sorely disappointed and shocked. I fear you would wrapyour rifle around a tree ifn you knew what it was actually doing.
With 100 grainers and a max load of H4350 the best I ave managed is 2,800fps, a long way short of the 3,000 the books have you believe.
Bob

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk
Mate the only way a 243 can kill an animal that quick is if you get a good s wing up And hit it in the head with the but.
As others have said the Whelen with 200gr superformance ammo dumbstruck deer on there arse right there. Does a lot of damage but dead is dead.
Roy Weatherby was a great believer in hydrostatic shock but look at the speeds his cartridges are doing.
Sorry to say but the 243 can't reach those speeds and dare I say if tou chronoed the 243 with 95 to 100gn projectiles out of the average 22 inch sporter you would be sorely disappointed and shocked. I fear you would wrapyour rifle around a tree ifn you knew what it was actually doing.
With 100 grainers and a max load of H4350 the best I ave managed is 2,800fps, a long way short of the 3,000 the books have you believe.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen I can give you a few anecdotes and a bit of data.

The data: The Barnes ttsx factory load is at 3350fps and 1994 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Discount as you will for shorter barrel lengths, the 80gr ttsx in a .243 is a heck of a weapon.

I’m not an expert in ballistics but I’m highly proficient at carting kids around from ages 6-10 years to hunt large game with .243s. It is wholly sufficient for everything up to bear and cow elk. Probably bull elk if the shooter was an exceptionally disciplined shot. Over the course of parenting three kids with .243s our recovery rate was 100%. In addition, to start out we initial used the 87gr reduced recoil Hornady loads. The Hornady literature states “to be used inside of 200 yards” as it is quite a mild load. My daughter killed a Red Deer Hind with this load at about 120 yards when she was six. I think we paced it out and the hind made it 9’ after the shot.

But maybe the .243 is just a kids gun, right? I’d direct you to the gentleman’s very adult, very safari worthy best gun alternative, Holland & Holland’s 240 Apex. The amount of game the 240 Apex killed all over the world with weak jacketed bullets that were not bonded, plus cordite as the propellant, is very high. Many of these 240s were made for Maharajahs to use in blackbuck, chital, and the occasional bengal tiger. They work just fine for that.

I would not hesitate to recommend a 243, 250 savage, a 257 weatherby, a 240 apex, a 244 remington, or a 257 Robert’s to anyone that is recoil averse. Especially if the goal is white tail deer where each of these cartridges is more than sufficient. Amply sufficient. Sufficient++.

As I said above, if you want to kill Elands and moose and other large creatures, you can step up to a 7x64 Brenneke, or a 280 remington, or any number of other mild recoiling cartridges. Certainly the 318 Westley is another good one. But not everyone can shoot a more powerful weapon or perhaps they are only hunting deer in which case “more gun” just isn’t necessary. It doesn’t mean I don’t like 8x57, 9x57, 9.3x57, 9.5x57, 7-30 waters, or any of the other larger bore diameter cartridges that are mild, those are all good too. But we need to focus on the point of the thread which is what are suitable moderate recoil cartridges for a deer hunter. Answer: tons of good ones, all the above exceeding sufficient by good margins.

Proof in the pudding:

 

[ChrisG]

View attachment 440842

Is that pre-64 M70? Very nice looking rifle!

 

[rookhawk]

Yes. Moderate price. Accurate. Reliable. Non-depreciating.

Is that pre-64 M70? Very nice looking rifle!

 

[ZG47]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen I can give you a few anecdotes and a bit of data.

The data: The Barnes ttsx factory load is at 3350fps and 1994 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Discount as you will for shorter barrel lengths, the 80gr ttsx in a .243 is a heck of a weapon.

I’m not an expert in ballistics but I’m highly proficient at carting kids around from ages 6-10 years to hunt large game with .243s. It is wholly sufficient for everything up to bear and cow elk. Probably bull elk if the shooter was an exceptionally disciplined shot. Over the course of parenting three kids with .243s our recovery rate was 100%. In addition, to start out we initial used the 87gr reduced recoil Hornady loads. The Hornady literature states “to be used inside of 200 yards” as it is quite a mild load. My daughter killed a Red Deer Hind with this load at about 120 yards when she was six. I think we paced it out and the hind made it 9’ after the shot.

But maybe the .243 is just a kids gun, right? I’d direct you to the gentleman’s very adult, very safari worthy best gun alternative, Holland & Holland’s 240 Apex. The amount of game the 240 Apex killed all over the world with weak jacketed bullets that were not bonded, plus cordite as the propellant, is very high. Many of these 240s were made for Maharajahs to use in blackbuck, chital, and the occasional bengal tiger. They work just fine for that.

I would not hesitate to recommend a 243, 250 savage, a 257 weatherby, a 240 apex, a 244 remington, or a 257 Robert’s to anyone that is recoil averse. Especially if the goal is white tail deer where each of these cartridges is more than sufficient. Amply sufficient. Sufficient++.

As I said above, if you want to kill Elands and moose and other large creatures, you can step up to a 7x64 Brenneke, or a 280 remington, or any number of other mild recoiling cartridges. Certainly the 318 Westley is another good one. But not everyone can shoot a more powerful weapon or perhaps they are only hunting deer in which case “more gun” just isn’t necessary. It doesn’t mean I don’t like 8x57, 9x57, 9.3x57, 9.5x57, 7-30 waters, or any of the other larger bore diameter cartridges that are mild, those are all good too. But we need to focus on the point of the thread which is what are suitable moderate recoil cartridges for a deer hunter. Answer: tons of good ones, all the above exceeding sufficient by good margins.

Proof in the pudding:

View attachment 440837View attachment 440838View attachment 440839View attachment 440840View attachment 440841View attachment 440842View attachment 440843View attachment 440844View attachment 440845View attachment 440846

I have mentioned before, that a local guy who worked as a ranger for the Regional Council, acquired a fair amount of experience using the .243 Winchester and .308 Winchester on deer and pig. He found that the Hornady 87 grain .243 Interlock flat-base projectile had approximately the same hardness as the Sierra 100 grain.243 flat base projectile and that: the Hornady 130 grain .308 Interlock flat-base projectile had approximately the same hardness as the Sierra 150 grain .308 flat-base projectile.

 

[IvW]

@rookhawk
Mate the only way a 243 can kill an animal that quick is if you get a good s wing up And hit it in the head with the but.
As others have said the Whelen with 200gr superformance ammo dumbstruck deer on there arse right there. Does a lot of damage but dead is dead.
Roy Weatherby was a great believer in hydrostatic shock but look at the speeds his cartridges are doing.
Sorry to say but the 243 can't reach those speeds and dare I say if tou chronoed the 243 with 95 to 100gn projectiles out of the average 22 inch sporter you would be sorely disappointed and shocked. I fear you would wrapyour rifle around a tree ifn you knew what it was actually doing.
With 100 grainers and a max load of H4350 the best I ave managed is 2,800fps, a long way short of the 3,000 the books have you believe.
Bob

And a 35 Does what velocity???

 

[IvW]

By the way if you need a 35 to kill deer sized game....well you need help......

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

And a 35 Does what velocity???

@IvW
2,900fps with a 225gn projectile, chronoed.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen I can give you a few anecdotes and a bit of data.

The data: The Barnes ttsx factory load is at 3350fps and 1994 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Discount as you will for shorter barrel lengths, the 80gr ttsx in a .243 is a heck of a weapon.

I’m not an expert in ballistics but I’m highly proficient at carting kids around from ages 6-10 years to hunt large game with .243s. It is wholly sufficient for everything up to bear and cow elk. Probably bull elk if the shooter was an exceptionally disciplined shot. Over the course of parenting three kids with .243s our recovery rate was 100%. In addition, to start out we initial used the 87gr reduced recoil Hornady loads. The Hornady literature states “to be used inside of 200 yards” as it is quite a mild load. My daughter killed a Red Deer Hind with this load at about 120 yards when she was six. I think we paced it out and the hind made it 9’ after the shot.

But maybe the .243 is just a kids gun, right? I’d direct you to the gentleman’s very adult, very safari worthy best gun alternative, Holland & Holland’s 240 Apex. The amount of game the 240 Apex killed all over the world with weak jacketed bullets that were not bonded, plus cordite as the propellant, is very high. Many of these 240s were made for Maharajahs to use in blackbuck, chital, and the occasional bengal tiger. They work just fine for that.

I would not hesitate to recommend a 243, 250 savage, a 257 weatherby, a 240 apex, a 244 remington, or a 257 Robert’s to anyone that is recoil averse. Especially if the goal is white tail deer where each of these cartridges is more than sufficient. Amply sufficient. Sufficient++.

As I said above, if you want to kill Elands and moose and other large creatures, you can step up to a 7x64 Brenneke, or a 280 remington, or any number of other mild recoiling cartridges. Certainly the 318 Westley is another good one. But not everyone can shoot a more powerful weapon or perhaps they are only hunting deer in which case “more gun” just isn’t necessary. It doesn’t mean I don’t like 8x57, 9x57, 9.3x57, 9.5x57, 7-30 waters, or any of the other larger bore diameter cartridges that are mild, those are all good too. But we need to focus on the point of the thread which is what are suitable moderate recoil cartridges for a deer hunter. Answer: tons of good ones, all the above exceeding sufficient by good margins.

Proof in the pudding:

View attachment 440837View attachment 440838View attachment 440839View attachment 440840View attachment 440841View attachment 440842View attachment 440843View attachment 440844View attachment 440845View attachment 440846

@rookhawk
Your kids have done well.
Yes the 243 will kill game IF the RIGHT projectile is used. My view has been tainted by the fact tat so many people in Australia use the wrong projectile for the game hunted and just end up wounding it.
With some clowns this applies to any caliber they use. I know of a person that states the best game bullet in his 300WSM is the 125gn nosler balistic tip because that's what the guy at the gun shop told him or the local range expert tat has never hunted game. Unfortunately these people listen to such rubbish and take it as gospel.
Loaded with the Barnes or the 95gn SST it probably would make a dandy medium game cartridge inside of 200 yards. As I said tho to many fools have tainted my opinion of it, even Winchester and their hype.
Bob

 

[ldmay375]

@rookhawk
Your kids have done well.
Yes the 243 will kill game IF the RIGHT projectile is used. My view has been tainted by the fact tat so many people in Australia use the wrong projectile for the game hunted and just end up wounding it.
With some clowns this applies to any caliber they use. I know of a person that states the best game bullet in his 300WSM is the 125gn nosler balistic tip because that's what the guy at the gun shop told him or the local range expert tat has never hunted game. Unfortunately these people listen to such rubbish and take it as gospel.
Loaded with the Barnes or the 95gn SST it probably would make a dandy medium game cartridge inside of 200 yards. As I said tho to many fools have tainted my opinion of it, even Winchester and their hype.
Bob

Fully agree that regardless of cartridge, many people choose a bullet that makes my eyes squint. I Suppose looking for that 100% every time, instantaneous drop in their tracks kill. Or looking for that BC for the Long shot.

All is well, until the shot is 50 yards instead of 500. And/or for a multitude of reasons that bullet does not strike where intended.
A Long time ago, I used a 6mm Remington on deer and it killed well with factory loaded Remington Core-Lokt ammo.
It like the various 270’s, 308’s, 30-06’s did give me a different perspective on the common cup & core bullets and penetration when hitting lager bones in even deer sized animals.

 

[ducmarc]

Not to throw a rock but I do have a prewar m70 carbine in 270 that is being restored that she doesn't know about.could do some reduced loads with that

 

[rookhawk]

Not to throw a rock but I do have a prewar m70 carbine in 270 that is being restored that she doesn't know about.could do some reduced loads with that

Hornady reduced recoil is a great idea in the .270. You could also customize the gun to her measurements and build a stock or buy a stock for a woman. You have nothing to lose as restored pre64s are not worth much of anything, but they are fantastic guns. Thus, might as well make a it a true custom.

 

[ZG47]

You could make up a .270 Winchester reduced load, using a known soft bullet such as the Partisan 130 grain. Sierra 130 grain flat-base is possibly a very soft bullet. That would be a much more practical, cheaper, quicker and easier solution than trying to develop a light load with either a monolithic solid or a bonded bullet that might have a thick jacket to compensate for the annealing effect of the bonding process.

Most of these so-called factory reduced loads seem to be more like the initial loads produced by sensible new handloaders than the practical reduced loads one might create for a young person or an adult with below average recoil tolerance. A deceased NZ hunting writer called Graeme Henry (first person to build and shoot a .338 Lapua hunting rifle) used a relatively soft 120 grain bullet to develop light 7mm-08 hunting loads for his children when they were ready to hunt deer.

It appears that you have received plenty of advice. Might be time to print off these responses and use a highlighter to pick out the information that seems most useful to you. Best of luck.

 

[CBH Australia]

@ducmarc AR2206H has a Hogdon equivalent.
Both can be run at 60% of max load. Confirm for your self.

Either use light projectiles or run reduced loads.

@rookhawk I was born in the wrong country and only got to shoot rabbits before age 10, maybe later. I don't have any problems with the .243 and I just want to shoot a Bear, are you adopting

Waits for the .35 Looneys to tune in

 

[rookhawk]

@ducmarc AR2206H has a Hogdon equivalent.
Both can be run at 60% of max load. Confirm for your self.

Either use light projectiles or run reduced loads.

@rookhawk I was born in the wrong country and only got to shoot rabbits before age 10, maybe later. I don't have any problems with the .243 and I just want to shoot a Bear, are you adopting

Waits for the .35 Looneys to tune in

Great comments. @CBH Australia

I’m not a skilled handloader but you’re right, there are many powders that allow diminished loads. People misunderstand the power of hand loads. As an anecdote from the shotgun world, a 1 ounce load versus 1-1/8 ounce load. 12.5% increase in payload, a 50% increase in recoil. Small movements have big differences. The other data point is that all things being equal, the powder that can achieve the same velocity as the rest with less powder has less recoil. So going with the powder that achieves X velocity with Y bullet using the least powder is going to reduce recoil. Barnes is probably the key to all the world’s recoil problems. They are 20% larger by volume because copper weighs less than lead. You still get to punch a big hole, but with a better BC and less energy because you can push a 150gr “size” bullet with the effort of a 120gr bullet. I need to play around with all of this to make a low-recoil 300 win mag for my kids safari and elk hunts.

As to you hunting bear, come on over to the States. There are some states where you can get the license same-year or without a lottery. Canada too. Great North American tradition of fishing all day and hunting 3pm-8pm at the end of the summer for bear with buddies sharing a camp. Where I’m from it is quite normal to have young children hunting big game. My state has no minimum hunting age in fact which we appreciate greatly. Some 15 year olds are not ready to hunt, some 6 year olds are, we appreciate leaving that determination up to the parents. All three of my kids graduated hunter safety at age 6-7. No shooting permitted until they passed was the rule. Two of them have become jr. safety instructors because they enjoyed the journey so much, having taken or assisted with the courses many times. Same for archery safety. Wish we saw more adults taking the classes as there is nothing more dangerous than a 70 year old man that says he’s been hunting for 60 years and doesn’t need to be lectured on safety. (Everybody duck)

 

[TOBY458]

I haven't read all the comments. But, if no one had mentioned a 300 Blackout, I can tell you it has recoil like a 22 and can kill deer like a 308 within 200 yards. Just use some Barnes Tac TX 110gr loads. I have a little CZ bolt gun in this caliber, and it has killed several bucks weighing over 200 lbs. I've yet to have one run over 50 yards after being hit.
And, like many have said before, the 243 Win is excellent with the right bullets. 257 Roberts is also excellent, with very mild recoil.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@ducmarc AR2206H has a Hogdon equivalent.
Both can be run at 60% of max load. Confirm for your self.

Either use light projectiles or run reduced loads.

@rookhawk I was born in the wrong country and only got to shoot rabbits before age 10, maybe later. I don't have any problems with the .243 and I just want to shoot a Bear, are you adopting

Waits for the .35 Looneys to tune in

@CBH Australia
Chris my son started coming on deer hunts with me from the age of 4 and a half. He learnt the ways of the bush and how to track then started hunting rabbits at the age of six. When he got his junior permit he went on 2 SSAA junior camps with others and got to used bigger centerfires and shotguns. He now loves going bush and hunting as often as we can. I know I can let him go while I'm at camp and he carries a 2 way while out to come and pick him up. It's be a great journey for both of us.
Hopefully you get your bear one day SOON.
Bob

 

[Hunter-Habib]

My proposition- 7x57mm Mauser and the European loadings. Very comfortable yet substantial caliber for whitetail deer.

Alternatively, you have the .270 Winchester and the excellent 150 Gr Winchester Super X Power Point loading.