Magnaport, anyone?

[rookhawk]

I think the market for fine wood stocked rifles may have peaked; it seems fewer hunters and rifle enthusiasts prefer them. Or, like me, they are reluctant to risk wear and tear on what is, after all, a tool however beautiful.

There's a bit of nuance to it. Everyone interprets data differently, but based upon recent sales I keep track of both domestically at retail, the auctions here, in the UK, and the EU, here's my analysis:

On used and vintage rifles:

450-400 - record setting prices
404 Jeff - record setting prices
470NE and 500NE - Stable prices
500 Jeff - record setting prices
505 Gibbs - stable prices
Small bore doubles - record setting prices
English small bore magazine rifles from London makers- record setting prices
Smallbore 410 and 28 gauge best guns are up

By make:

Heyms are record setting prices
Dakotas are record setting prices
English doubles are record setting prices
Gibbs Farquarson and Similar single shots are record setting prices
Westley Richards are way up
Hollands are stable
Griffin & Howe rifles in less common smallbore calibers are up
CZ customs are up
Storied American pre-war customs other than G&H are stable to down


Prices are down on the following:

BPE doubles are down
Brownings are down
450NE, 475 No 2, 465NE are down
Drillings are way down
Combination guns are way down
Cape guns are nearly unsaleable
Rimless largebore double rifles are way down
Custom/bespoke R93s and R8s (steel receivers heavy embellishment) are down
Vierlings are way down
Ferlachs are down (except for record setting prices on Borovniks in UK/EU)
375HH is slightly down
Spanish shotgun prices are in the toilet
12 bore shotgun prices are slightly down
American parker, fox, and lefever guns are down
American custom rifles are down considerably
360NE rifles are up

By features:

Mauser actions are stable or up
Push feed best guns are way down
Single trigger large bore double rifles are in the toilet
Over/Under largebore double rifles are also in the toilet
Large bore extractor double rifles are down
7x57 / 275 Rigby is up
250-3000 and 257 roberts is up
6.5x54 and 6.5x55 is up
Largebore metric rifles are down

 

[375Ruger416]

There's a bit of nuance to it. Everyone interprets data differently, but based upon recent sales I keep track of both domestically at retail, the auctions here, in the UK, and the EU, here's my analysis:

On used and vintage rifles:

450-400 - record setting prices
404 Jeff - record setting prices
470NE and 500NE - Stable prices
500 Jeff - record setting prices
505 Gibbs - stable prices
Small bore doubles - record setting prices
English small bore magazine rifles from London makers- record setting prices
Smallbore 410 and 28 gauge best guns are up

By make:

Heyms are record setting prices
Dakotas are record setting prices
English doubles are record setting prices
Gibbs Farquarson and Similar single shots are record setting prices
Westley Richards are way up
Hollands are stable
Griffin & Howe rifles in less common smallbore calibers are up
CZ customs are up
Storied American pre-war customs other than G&H are stable to down


Prices are down on the following:

BPE doubles are down
Brownings are down
450NE, 475 No 2, 465NE are down
Drillings are way down
Combination guns are way down
Cape guns are nearly unsaleable
Rimless largebore double rifles are way down
Custom/bespoke R93s and R8s (steel receivers heavy embellishment) are down
Vierlings are way down
Ferlachs are down (except for record setting prices on Borovniks in UK/EU)
375HH is slightly down
Spanish shotgun prices are in the toilet
12 bore shotgun prices are slightly down
American parker, fox, and lefever guns are down
American custom rifles are down considerably
360NE rifles are up

By features:

Mauser actions are stable or up
Push feed best guns are way down
Single trigger large bore double rifles are in the toilet
Over/Under largebore double rifles are also in the toilet
Large bore extractor double rifles are down
7x57 / 275 Rigby is up
250-3000 and 257 roberts is up
6.5x54 and 6.5x55 is up
Largebore metric rifles are down

What’s your outlook for the next 5, 10, and 15 years?

 

[rookhawk]

What’s your outlook for the next 5, 10, and 15 years?

My tune has changed. I was pessimistic coming out of the 2008 era when a LOT of nice guns hit the market. I thought it was like comic books and baseball cards and old Dutch masters. 99% of collectibles were in the toilet, but the top-top-top best 1% was hitting meteoric prices.

I don't think that way anymore. I'm seeing demand-convergence of people going after these rifles. I'll give you an example: Buyer 1.) I don't give a damned about collectibles at all, I just want a nice Parkwest 76 Dark Continent but I don't want to wait a year or more and spend $20000+. Buyer 2.) I'm a fanatical collector and I want functional art, I want an original Dakota 76 African with all the bells and whistles.

The collector and the non-collector are both bidding on the same exact guns. One guy wants to buy a lightly used gun because its cheaper and he can have it today, the other guy wants it because he's a collector and they "don't make them like they used to". As long as we have inflation and increasing MSRPs on fine guns, these nicer guns are chasing just behind MSRP on the used market.

The same could be said for vintage Rigby, Westley Richards, and Jeffery rifles. You might not give a darn about collectibility or appreciation, all you know is that really nice used gun is less than a new Highland Stalker at $17000 and it is a lot prettier. The same gun is being driven up in price by the collector that wants "a real one from golden era between the wars".

That's what I'm seeing. Also, really nice vintage guns aren't all that expensive, relatively speaking. For the same price as a Blaser R8, well equipped, someone can have an appreciating asset in one of the examples above. Sure, the Blaser is modern technology, but so is a new boat and we know what happens to boats a day after you buy them. But these rust blued and walnut masterpieces cannot easily be reproduced anymore, the machinery and the skill required is nearly extinct worldwide. New production will not be able to satisfy demand at a reasonable pricepoint.

These old guns or custom steel and walnut, oil finished guns have one other edge. You can use them, wear on them, put dings in them, and almost all wear can be mitigated 95% of the way back. I cannot undo wear to a modern technological gun that is cerakote and polymer, they don't take well to reconditioning.

I took us a bit off course of the thread, so to tie it back to the point of the thread, when people are looking for what I'd call premium manufactured one-at-a-time rifles like the Dakotas and British stuff, they do want to see it unmolested or if it is messed with, that its reversible/curable condition. (put the original trigger back, remove the ugly scope, etc.) Porting/brakes are like changing the bottom metal or swapping out the stocks, it kills the demand from both types of buyers.

 

[375Ruger416]

My tune has changed. I was pessimistic coming out of the 2008 era when a LOT of nice guns hit the market. I thought it was like comic books and baseball cards and old Dutch masters. 99% of collectibles were in the toilet, but the top-top-top best 1% was hitting meteoric prices.

I don't think that way anymore. I'm seeing demand-convergence of people going after these rifles. I'll give you an example: Buyer 1.) I don't give a damned about collectibles at all, I just want a nice Parkwest 76 Dark Continent but I don't want to wait a year or more and spend $20000+. Buyer 2.) I'm a fanatical collector and I want functional art, I want an original Dakota 76 African with all the bells and whistles.

The collector and the non-collector are both bidding on the same exact guns. One guy wants to buy a lightly used gun because its cheaper and he can have it today, the other guy wants it because he's a collector and they "don't make them like they used to". As long as we have inflation and increasing MSRPs on fine guns, these nicer guns are chasing just behind MSRP on the used market.

The same could be said for vintage Rigby, Westley Richards, and Jeffery rifles. You might not give a darn about collectibility or appreciation, all you know is that really nice used gun is less than a new Highland Stalker at $17000 and it is a lot prettier. The same gun is being driven up in price by the collector that wants "a real one from golden era between the wars".

That's what I'm seeing. Also, really nice vintage guns aren't all that expensive, relatively speaking. For the same price as a Blaser R8, well equipped, someone can have an appreciating asset in one of the examples above. Sure, the Blaser is modern technology, but so is a new boat and we know what happens to boats a day after you buy them. But these rust blued and walnut masterpieces cannot easily be reproduced anymore, the machinery and the skill required is nearly extinct worldwide. New production will not be able to satisfy demand at a reasonable pricepoint.

These old guns or custom steel and walnut, oil finished guns have one other edge. You can use them, wear on them, put dings in them, and almost all wear can be mitigated 95% of the way back. I cannot undo wear to a modern technological gun that is cerakote and polymer, they don't take well to reconditioning.

I took us a bit off course of the thread, so to tie it back to the point of the thread, when people are looking for what I'd call premium manufactured one-at-a-time rifles like the Dakotas and British stuff, they do want to see it unmolested or if it is messed with, that its reversible/curable condition. (put the original trigger back, remove the ugly scope, etc.) Porting/brakes are like changing the bottom metal or swapping out the stocks, it kills the demand from both types of buyers.

I hope you’re right, but I’m less optimistic about the future for these wood and blued rifles. Maybe I’m just less optimistic in general…. Particularly about firearms as an appreciating asset

 

[rookhawk]

It took me a minute to figure out why this rifle was such a bargain. Dakota Travelers are pretty high-demand rifles. Roughly $17,000 as equipped to get one today.

Current price and lack of interest is relevant to this thread: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1087371995

 

[BJH65]

It took me a minute to figure out why this rifle was such a bargain. Dakota Travelers are pretty high-demand rifles. Roughly $17,000 as equipped to get one today.

Current price and lack of interest is relevant to this thread: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1087371995

See, even you didn’t initially notice the Mag-Na-Ported barrel. . You would have instantly noticed a traditional muzzle brake.

I think the 30-06 chambering may be why? Not as common to see Mag-Na-Porting on a 30-06 either? Were it a 416 Taylor or 404 Jeffery, I think they could be asking more and get it too, even with the Mag-Na-Porting.

I forgot to mention, especially with custom rifles, a customer may specifically request that the builder have it Mag-Na-Ported or install a threaded muzzle brake, so sometimes not an aftermarket alteration, but done or subbed out by the builder. Always I good thing to have the invoice and/or documentation from the gunmaker detailing the specific work done and parts utilized on a custom rifle.

 

[RR 314]

I forgot to mention, especially with custom rifles, a customer may specifically request that the builder have it Mag-Na-Ported or install a threaded muzzle brake, so sometimes not an aftermarket alteration, but done or subbed out by the builder. Always I good thing to have the invoice and/or documentation from the gunmaker detailing the specific work done and parts utilized on a custom rifle.

Ok. I think everyone's positions are outlined. Including mine. Final rebuttal regarding whether the magna porting was done at the request of the builder and it therefore being "original" to the gun. To almost the entire marketplace for fine rifles, it does not matter if it was done, and hence on the build sheet, before the original owner took possession. The diminished value of the rifle on the secondary market to the vast majority of the marketplace is the same.

Some like the porting, but most do not. Again, I wish that I did like it as it opens up some great values in the secondary market.

 

[BJH65]

Ok. I think everyone's positions are outlined. Including mine. Final rebuttal regarding whether the magna porting was done at the request of the builder and it therefore being "original" to the gun. To almost the entire marketplace for fine rifles, it does not matter if it was done, and hence on the build sheet, before the original owner took possession. The diminished value of the rifle on the secondary market to the vast majority of the marketplace is the same.

Some like the porting, but most do not. Again, I wish that I did like it as it opens up some great values in the secondary market.

Agreed, the dead horse has been beat enough. I believe there are nuances to some custom rifles and production rifles that specifically have Mag-Na-Ported barrels that doesn’t effect their resale value at all which I’ve provided some examples of proving my point and perhaps some that it does effect negatively. You and Rookhawk do not share this opinion, that’s fine, I respect all opinions.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Have several lightweight medium magnums 7 mm 35s that are magna ported but that alone doesn't tame The recoil as necessary like a brake does so adding a hefty stock using all steel scope even putting bipods on I have your sling loading the gun to capacity and my favorite adding Mercury recoil reducers to the butt all of that in conjunction will tame the gun a bit and sans the bipods the above is what I did to tame the recoil on a short 416 but I did not magnaport it. Adding heft can easily surpass the what is it 15% recoil reduction of that process.

In general, one pound of added weight results in a 10% recoil reduction. It isn't too difficult to add one and a half to two pounds of heft to achieve a reduction of 15 to 20% in recoil.

 

[ve7poi]

Port only if you want to wear hearing aids it can be ok if hunting alone but do you hunt wearing hearing protection I don’t hence hearing aids ‍
Not worth the bother

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Port only if you want to wear hearing aids it can be ok if hunting alone but do you hunt wearing hearing protection I don’t hence hearing aids ‍
Not worth the bother

You do know that Mag na port is not the same as a full muzzle brake right? The Mag na port vents gas up and down only. It dies not vent gas (and noise) to the side. I am not particularly recoil sensitive so the .458 Win is my only rifle with any kind of brake and I can not hear any difference in noise at my end. My PH assures me that it makes no difference to him as far as noise goes, and he hates muzzle brakes on rifles.