M70 Safari Express 458 Win Mag vs CZ550 458 Lott

[One Day...]

So... full disclosure, I am on the Lott bandwagon. Mine is a Mauser 66 originally chambered in .458 Win and opened up to .458 Lott in the early 1980's. And I love it... It is 1" shorter than the CZ 550 Rigby, yet it has a 26" barrel due to its telescopic action (it was the precursor to the Blaser concept, although with a classic bolt head). That gives it a little extra velocity over factory specs.

This being said, I did this almost 40 years ago when the .458 Win rumors were still going strong (although in truth the .458 Win original ammo problem had already been fixed many years before), and at a time when private chronographs were rare and there was a fair amount of exaggeration in reported ballistics. That made the Lott look a LOT (pun fully intended) better than the Win.

Truth be told, when shot over a chronograph, there is not so much to gain in a Lott:
- yes it flies faster: 2,300 fps vs. 2,100 fps;
- yes it hits harder: 5,800 ft/lbs vs. 5,000 ft/lbs;
- yes it flies flatter: 0 @ 50 yd, 0 @ 100 yd, -2" @ 150 yd, -6" @ 200 yd vs. +0.5" @ 50 yd, 0 @ 100 yd, -3" @ 150 yd, -9" @ 200 yd;
but truth be told the differences are not very significant and all this will make exactly zero difference on a DG hunt.

Factually, the .458 Win is a great cartridge, and the Lott is just a little greater, but not enough to really worry about.

Further truth be told, I use neither rifle since my African DG rifle is now a Kreighoff double .470 NE... I bought the .458 when it became impossible to find ammo, or even brass, for my first double, a pre WW II 450 #2; and I bought the Rigby when CZ resurrected it ... because I just had to have one

I guess that I will need to stand up at the next Gunoholics Anonymous meeting and confess: I, One Day, was in gun-buying madness for many decades

 

[BeeMaa]

I was talking to my PH about his choice for a DG backup rifle, a Win Safari M70 458WM with only open sights.
He describes it as a working rifle, but chose the caliber base almost solely on the price and availability of ammo.
He said that 375H&H and 458WM are the only really affordable calibers when it comes to DG ammo.
All the 416's, 404J, 450-400, 450NE, 470NE, and yes the 458LOTT... are all 3 to 4 times the price and hard to find in South Africa.
He said it doesn't stop other PH's from using these calibers, but when a box of 20 cost 1/4 of your monthly salary...
If I had been shooting a 458WM, I would have given him whatever I had left as a thank you for backing me up.

 

[Dewald]

I was talking to my PH about his choice for a DG backup rifle, a Win Safari M70 458WM with only open sights.
He describes it as a working rifle, but chose the caliber base almost solely on the price and availability of ammo.
He said that 375H&H and 458WM are the only really affordable calibers when it comes to DG ammo.
All the 416's, 404J, 450-400, 450NE, 470NE, and yes the 458LOTT... are all 3 to 4 times the price and hard to find in South Africa.
He said it doesn't stop other PH's from using these calibers, but when a box of 20 cost 1/4 of your monthly salary...
If I had been shooting a 458WM, I would have given him whatever I had left as a thank you for backing me up.

Spot on. Although there are plenty PHs out there who are true firearm enthusiasts, and very knowledgeable about them, and skilled at using them, the majority are restricted very heavily in their choice of DG and non-DG rifles, by price and availability.

Realistically in SA, a PH has a choice between CZ and Winchester new ( with the odd few months passing on no Winchesters in stock every year or so) and in Calibers .375 H&H, .416 Rem (if Winnies are in stock) .416 Rigby, and the .458 WinMag and Lott.

Remember that a lot of these chaps qualify young, and are not allowed to hunt DG yet, but they itch to buy a large calibre (nothing wrong. I was there as well), and end up making a very uninformed choice. I spoke to a 20 year old lad last week who bought a Howa .375 Ruger, case in point.

Further more few have the funds or knowledge to know how and where to have their rifles smoothed out, to get them DG ready.

Obviously using that “imperfect” rifle for years gets rid of a sticky action and one becomes familiar with it, and many PHs do fine with a rifle that might in theory have a lot of shortcomings ( think Selby’s standard lenth .416 Rigby).

Point I’m trying to make. Your PHs opinion on a DG rifle is not necessarily the most unbiased.

 

[TOBY458]

I just checked with him. Sako Finnbear. Originally a .375 H&H but had it rebarrelled to a .416 Remington Magnum. The investigation showed that the firing pin snapped back into the fired position when he pulled the bolt backwards hard and the mechanism rotated inside the bolt shroud and wouldn’t allow him to close the bolt. He then gave up on the rifle because he was getting chewed up and used it by sticking it in the mouth of the bear. After a while, the bear stopped attacking him and walked a short distance away and sat down. My friend then got up and made a break for the beach. He called the Coast Guard on his hand held radio and then passed out. The hunter got scared when he heard the attack and ran back to the skiff, leaving my friend for dead. My friend had a badly broken foot, a chunk tore out of his thigh, a broken arm and a broken hand.

In early reports before the gunsmith and Sako investigation, he wondered if he might have short-stroked after his first charging shot but that didn’t make sense because the bolt wouldn’t close.

That being said, that really had nothing to do with the extractor, or whether or not it was CRF. Sounds like something wrong with the cocking piece on the bolt. Also, those older Finnbear actions had a bolt guide that was prone to get loose and slide forward which locked the bolt from opening or closing. That could have happened as well. The newer Sako 75 and 85 actions have 3 locking lugs, and no longer use the bolt guide mentioned above.

 

[Scott CWO]

That being said, that really had nothing to do with the extractor, or whether or not it was CRF. Sounds like something wrong with the cocking piece on the bolt. Also, those older Finnbear actions had a bolt guide that was prone to get loose and slide forward which locked the bolt from opening or closing. That could have happened as well. The newer Sako 75 and 85 actions have 3 locking lugs, and no longer use the bolt guide mentioned above.

It didn't pick up a round so it has everything to do with it.

It was not the bolt guide. It didn't pick up a round AND the bolt failed. Even with the firing pin snapping back to the fired position, it still should have picked up a round while he was under the bear. Both are problems.

Are you really suggesting that a PH or guide SHOULD carry a push feed?? Give it up already. The point is to eliminate as many risks as possible. A PROPER guide or PH rifle should be CRF.

 

[BnC 04]

Interesting topic and views. Being a pre/post 64 collector I stand behind CRF actions 100%. Never an issue to date and don't expect any in the future. Same can't be said with a family members Model 700 pusher. He still has it but won't use it anymore and renamed it Boat Oar as it's the only reliable function it currently holds.

 

[TOBY458]

It didn't pick up a round so it has everything to do with it.

It was not the bolt guide. It didn't pick up a round AND the bolt failed. Even with the firing pin snapping back to the fired position, it still should have picked up a round while he was under the bear. Both are problems.

Are you really suggesting that a PH or guide SHOULD carry a push feed?? Give it up already. The point is to eliminate as many risks as possible. A PROPER guide or PH rifle should be CRF.

No I'm not suggesting any PH use a push feed. I'm simply saying that any rifle can fail. Most of my rifles are mauser style CRF, but I've had good luck with many action types.

 

[Scott CWO]

So... full disclosure, I am on the Lott bandwagon. Mine is a Mauser 66 originally chambered in .458 Win and opened up to .458 Lott in the early 1980's. And I love it... It is 1" shorter than the CZ 550 Rigby, yet it has a 26" barrel due to its telescopic action (it was the precursor to the Blaser concept, although with a classic bolt head). That gives it a little extra velocity over factory specs.

This being said, I did this almost 40 years ago when the .458 Win rumors were still going strong (although in truth the .458 Win original ammo problem had already been fixed many years before), and at a time when private chronographs were rare and there was a fair amount of exaggeration in reported ballistics. That made the Lott look a LOT (pun fully intended) better than the Win.

Truth be told, when shot over a chronograph, there is not so much to gain in a Lott:
- yes it flies faster: 2,300 fps vs. 2,100 fps;
- yes it hits harder: 5,800 ft/lbs vs. 5,000 ft/lbs;
- yes it flies flatter: 0 @ 50 yd, 0 @ 100 yd, -2" @ 150 yd, -6" @ 200 yd vs. +0.5" @ 50 yd, 0 @ 100 yd, -3" @ 150 yd, -9" @ 200 yd;
but truth be told the differences are not very significant and all this will make exactly zero difference on a DG hunt.

Factually, the .458 Win is a great cartridge, and the Lott is just a little greater, but not enough to really worry about.

View attachment 291301

Further truth be told, I use neither rifle since my African DG rifle is now a Kreighoff double .470 NE... I bought the .458 when it became impossible to find ammo, or even brass, for my first double, a pre WW II 450 #2; and I bought the Rigby when CZ resurrected it ... because I just had to have one

View attachment 291302

I guess that I will need to stand up at the next Gunoholics Anonymous meeting and confess: I, One Day, was in gun-buying madness for many decades

I have read that it is hard to get the .458 Win Mag up to 2100 fps when actually tested but I don't own one and don't have personal experience with it. I shoot a 400gr in my Lott at 2550 and a 450gr at 2380.

 

[Dewald]

I have read that it is hard to get the .458 Win Mag up to 2100 fps when actually tested but I don't own one and don't have personal experience with it. I shoot a 400gr in my Lott at 2550 and a 450gr at 2380.

There was a very good article written on the subject by Paul Phelan, perhaps 4-5 years ago. Paul has been a PH for more than 40 years (if memory serves me correct, one of the 1st three to be licensed by Natal Parksboard back in 1980, and had been a game ranger for Natal Parksboard prior to that. He thus used the .458 WM extensively over the years and started playing around with cutting crimping cannelures further back in the 480gr bullets to effectively increase case volume by seating them out further. I assume this applied to the standard issue ZKK602s, where magazine length was no issue, but will verify. It resulted in much improved velocities at the end, and also steered well clear of load compressing, given the powder caching clowd that hangs over .458 WM’s reputation. If I find the article I will post it here

 

[nksmfamjp]

Wow! Lots of commentary....didn’t get much response on the MRC....That’s ok, they are off the list now.

I’m a bit torn between a CZ customized by Triple River or......

A Winchester model 70 lightly customized by Dennis Olson.

Final thoughts about those 2 choices....

 

[bruce moulds]

people who bet on horses study the form guide.
if m70 and cz were horses, and this forum the form guide, the win would have the lowest odds, ie. be more probable to win.
buying any man made thing is a gamble, so going with the best odds has merit.
never bet more than you can afford to lose, in this case maybe your life.
bruce.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Wow! Lots of commentary....didn’t get much response on the MRC....That’s ok, they are off the list now.

I’m a bit torn between a CZ customized by Triple River or......

A Winchester model 70 lightly customized by Dennis Olson.

Final thoughts about those 2 choices....

Does Dennis Olson do good work? I’m thinking of having my model 70 customized a little. Not much just cut the barrel to 22” and a banded front sight ramp and classic express rear sights. Maybe opening up the scope base screws to 8- 40

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have read that it is hard to get the .458 Win Mag up to 2100 fps when actually tested but I don't own one and don't have personal experience with it. I shoot a 400gr in my Lott at 2550 and a 450gr at 2380.

The box of factory .458 WM Barnes 450gr TSXs I have, states 2240 fps? Probably tested from a 24” barrel? My CZ has a 25” barrel, so another 50fps at 2290? Moot point, just curious.

 

[One Day...]

The answer is in the data. 2,100 fps was indeed hard to get with the 500 gr load (never mind the original 510 gr slugs) from a Win case with the original ball powder, but it is easily achievable today (typically 2,150 fps). The TSX likely does fly at 2,240 fps but it is 450 gr

I doubt either speed or weight difference would impress a buff one way or the other

Regarding the Lott, my experience is similar. I used to shoot A Square triads of solid, tough and soft. They were 465 gr and flew at 2,380 fps.

Considering the propellant gases expansion ratio in a .45 bore, and the comparatively modest amount of powder in the Win case, it is actually possible that an additional inch of pipe will not add 50 fps. It may even actually subtract 50 fps, depending on the powder burn rate... The .458 Win is definitely NOT overbore

 

[CoElkHunter]

The answer is in the data. 2,100 fps is indeed hard to get with the 500 gr load from a Win case. The TSX likely does fly at 2,240 fps but it is 450 gr
I doubt either speed or weight difference would impress a buff one way or the other

Thanks One Day!
I don’t have ( or have shot) any 500 gr. rounds yet, but the 450gr Barnes are great to shoot. Contrary to some naysayers here, I can’t imagine the .458WM Barnes loads wouldn’t be sufficient for buffalo? I’ve never hunted Cape Buffalo, but am wanting to try this load on North American Bison (yes I realize they’re not CB) to test the penetration?
BTW, I used a Q Tip and put some fluorescent orange “neon pop” nail polish on the white front sight of both my .458 .CZ and .375 Whitworth, and can NOW see the front sight much better. I gave the rest to my granddaughter for her nails. I’m still going to get (at your suggestion) the NECG white front sight for my CZ, as soon as I figure out which mm option I need. I’m not good with measuring in mm s.
Thanks!
CEH

 

[nksmfamjp]

Does Dennis Olson do good work?

I cannot find a single concern about his work on the entire internet...maybe you can.