Long Range Precision Hunting - Recoil/Caliber vs. Terminal Ballistics

[HookMeUpII]

Use the browning 300 win...what's the point of having it unless you going to use it...why put it in the safe and forget about it?...

It's too nice to be banging off rocks, trees, in the mud, rain, etc. That's just my personal belief. It was a one-year only, Shot Show edition. I would have no problem bringing it for blind or stand hunting with an outfitter or something. However, for backpacking it's going to get beat to holy hell.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

It's too nice to be banging off rocks, trees, in the mud, rain, etc. That's just my personal belief. It was a one-year only, Shot Show edition. I would have no problem bringing it for blind or stand hunting with an outfitter or something. However, for backpacking it's going to get beat to holy hell.

Almost all the manufacturers do 1 Year Only Shot Show editions nearly every year. Sometimes it’s caliber, color, stock, wood choice, engraving etc. Unless it’s a significant anniversary edition it’s unlikely it retains any more value than another White Medal or whatever it is that wasn’t the Shot Show gun. As I mentioned a replacement stock might be an option or another gun.

Anyway you slice it, without truly knowing where you live and where you hunt 90% of the time .300WM is the most versatile caliber. It’s nicknamed the Lord’s Caliber for a reason. Other calibers that are nearly as versatile with readily available Ammo damn near anywhere in North America (even the world) are .308, .30-06, and .270. The only thing in NA that might give you issues is Big Alaskan Bears. Sure they can kill them but most guides are going to want you to use a little more gun.

I hear guides all the time say the best gun is your deer rifle you’re most familiar with. I’ve heard African PH’s, and hunting guides all over North America say if for anything from Pronghorn to Elk Bear and Moose Guides.

 

[gajie270]

I don't think it should be about whether or not you can ethically make the shot at (insert long distance) with (insert cartridge). I think it should be about the concept of a fair chase for that animal. End of story.

 

[hatfield]

IMO, there is no caliber that works well for all ranges, if you're trying to mitigate recoil. The 6.5, 30-06, 270ish calibers will generate a fair amount of hydrostatic shock inside 300yds, with bullets are designed for the animal you're shooting. Here lies the problem. If you're going after an elk sized animal, you need a heavier jacketed bullet for penetration and to prevent a more frangible bullet from coming apart on heavy bone. At 500 yds, these non-magnum calibers lack the retained velocity and energy to properly expand the bullet. Instead of a good wound channel, you poke a hole straight though.
To ensure good bullet expansion and a clean kill at long ranges, you need the velocity that the magnum calibers provide.
I will add one note here, if you're at a distance where your velocity is in the low 2000s, there is no substitute for large frontal area!! If you're going to poke a hole, make it a big one. at least you'll have a blood trail..

 

[spike.t]

It's too nice to be banging off rocks, trees, in the mud, rain, etc. That's just my personal belief. It was a one-year only, Shot Show edition. I would have no problem bringing it for blind or stand hunting with an outfitter or something. However, for backpacking it's going to get beat to holy hell.

OK still don't get it.....have dragged my rigbys and Jeffery through the Bush....and other makes, part of owning them is using them for what they were built for....but your choice

 

[sgt_zim]

OK still don't get it.....have dragged my rigbys and Jeffery through the Bush....and other makes, part of owning them is using them for what they were built for....but your choice

There is a certain cool factor when your rifle shows signs of use, particularly heavy use. There's just something about a nice wood stock that is darker at the grip and the fore end from heavy use.

 

[Inline6]

IMO, there is no caliber that works well for all ranges, if you're trying to mitigate recoil. The 6.5, 30-06, 270ish calibers will generate a fair amount of hydrostatic shock inside 300yds, with bullets are designed for the animal you're shooting. Here lies the problem. If you're going after an elk sized animal, you need a heavier jacketed bullet for penetration and to prevent a more frangible bullet from coming apart on heavy bone. At 500 yds, these non-magnum calibers lack the retained velocity and energy to properly expand the bullet. Instead of a good wound channel, you poke a hole straight though.
To ensure good bullet expansion and a clean kill at long ranges, you need the velocity that the magnum calibers provide.
I will add one note here, if you're at a distance where your velocity is in the low 2000s, there is no substitute for large frontal area!! If you're going to poke a hole, make it a big one. at least you'll have a blood trail..

In the example I gave of the 6.5PRC at 650 yards it has a velocity of 2086fps with 1508ftlb of energy. The problem with the big sticks most won't shoot them well due to heavy recoil in a light rig.

Most people can't out shoot their equipment. When someone says they want to elk hunt and the a 500+ yard shot we seem to have 2 different camps. One that's say get proficient and make it happen. The other is get closer no reason you should take that shot.

It's like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[revturbo9967]

OK still don't get it.....have dragged my rigbys and Jeffery through the Bush....and other makes, part of owning them is using them for what they were built for....but your choice

Yup. I don’t own any high end doubles but push some decent bolt guns in the Wyoming and Colorado back country. They get banged up just like on any hunt. If I have to leave a rifle home because it’s “too nice” , I need to do some soul searching.

 

[Tra3]

In the example I gave of the 6.5PRC at 650 yards it has a velocity of 2086fps with 1508ftlb of energy. The problem with the big sticks most won't shoot them well due to heavy recoil in a light rig.

Most people can't out shoot their equipment. When someone says they want to elk hunt and the a 500+ yard shot we seem to have 2 different camps. One that's say get proficient and make it happen. The other is get closer no reason you should take that shot.

It's like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.

Both camps are saying don’t take the shot… (1) unless you are proficient or (2) even if you are proficient, get closer to reduce the risk of error.

Those that are proficient, don’t ask the question. Those that are hoping to become proficient do ask the question in a goal of trying to get parameters.
Those that are not proficient and don’t ask questions learn from mistakes.
I’d bet that many of us have learned from hunting mistakes and we provide advice based on what didn’t work.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Next hunt, I'm going full tilt boogie ethical, barefoot, loincloth and spear.

 

[revturbo9967]

Next hunt, I'm going full tilt boogie ethical, barefoot, loincloth and spear.

Please don’t take pictures

 

[BRICKBURN]

Next hunt, I'm going full tilt boogie ethical, barefoot, loincloth and spear.

Scaring them to death with that picture .... You'll certainly have to get close.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

In the example I gave of the 6.5PRC at 650 yards it has a velocity of 2086fps with 1508ftlb of energy. The problem with the big sticks most won't shoot them well due to heavy recoil in a light rig.

Most people can't out shoot their equipment. When someone says they want to elk hunt and the a 500+ yard shot we seem to have 2 different camps. One that's say get proficient and make it happen. The other is get closer no reason you should take that shot.

It's like anything else in life you get out of it what you put into it.

You’re also forgetting that for the last several years there weren’t a lot of factory loads out there for 6.5PRC and the most popular one has had marginal performance on game.

Both camps are saying don’t take the shot… (1) unless you are proficient or (2) even if you are proficient, get closer to reduce the risk of error.

Those that are proficient, don’t ask the question. Those that are hoping to become proficient do ask the question in a goal of trying to get parameters.
Those that are not proficient and don’t ask questions learn from mistakes.
I’d bet that many of us have learned from hunting mistakes and we provide advice based on what didn’t work.

I didn’t really touch on long range hunting but as someone who’s got a fair bit of experience slinging lead a long way I have no issues with it IF one has the experience (thousands of rounds and a lot of time), skill (from experience and education), and equipment (takes dollars and education) to make those shots. If one has a really knowledgeable spotter and a little experience/skill one can reduce the experience but their effective range is going to be reduced a lot further than the spotters is.

There used to be a chart publicized in Hunter Ed showing what was considered the minimum KE required for each species (irregardless of distance) for an ethical kill. Me personally, I love being close because it tests one skill set, but I also love extreme long range because it tests another skill of mine. Every hunting location and situation is different. As @hatfield pointed out, velocity and mass = energy, and most non magnum calibers don’t have it after 500 yards. There are a few exceptions but theyre ones utilizing specialized equipment to include specific bullets and most of the commercially loaded stuff isn’t it.

 

[HookMeUpII]

You’re also forgetting that for the last several years there weren’t a lot of factory loads out there for 6.5PRC and the most popular one has had marginal performance on game.

I didn’t really touch on long range hunting but as someone who’s got a fair bit of experience slinging lead a long way I have no issues with it IF one has the experience (thousands of rounds and a lot of time), skill (from experience and education), and equipment (takes dollars and education) to make those shots. If one has a really knowledgeable spotter and a little experience/skill one can reduce the experience but their effective range is going to be reduced a lot further than the spotters is.

There used to be a chart publicized in Hunter Ed showing what was considered the minimum KE required for each species (irregardless of distance) for an ethical kill. Me personally, I love being close because it tests one skill set, but I also love extreme long range because it tests another skill of mine. Every hunting location and situation is different. As @hatfield pointed out, velocity and mass = energy, and most non magnum calibers don’t have it after 500 yards. There are a few exceptions but theyre ones utilizing specialized equipment to include specific bullets and most of the commercially loaded stuff isn’t it.

Thank you. Both require skill and I personally would like both in my skillset. People in this post seem to think one replaces the other when it does not.

It seems like the hunters that specialize in really long range shots start getting into things like 338 which then sort of becomes interesting for closer shots. I'd like something that meets the expectations on both fronts. I am heavily leaning towards 7mm RM. I am fortunate enough to have met a coach at Griffin & Howe here in NJ. He connected me with some of the people there. I am debating, over some years, of putting together a custom rifle with something along the lines of an action, barrel, and stock like a McMillan. I do have the ability to reload so that helps.

 

[sgt_zim]

Thank you. Both require skill and I personally would like both in my skillset. People in this post seem to think one replaces the other when it does not.

It seems like the hunters that specialize in really long range shots start getting into things like 338 which then sort of becomes interesting for closer shots. I'd like something that meets the expectations on both fronts. I am heavily leaning towards 7mm RM. I am fortunate enough to have met a coach at Griffin & Howe here in NJ. He connected me with some of the people there. I am debating, over some years, of putting together a custom rifle with something along the lines of an action, barrel, and stock like a McMillan. I do have the ability to reload so that helps.

Might as well take a look at 280 AI if you're going to take that route.
The Good:

• 22" barrel will generally get you full velocity
• 1 more cartridge in the mag
• LR primers instead of LRM
• for hand loaders, there is MV overlap from the bottom end to the top end with 7mm RM - a quick glance at Nosler's data shows this, and my own reloading demonstrates it. I'm getting just short of 3K fps with 160 gr A Frames
• It'll fire 280 Rem ammo
• about 15-20% less powder to produce the same MV as 7mm RM
• In a pinch for brass, you can always use 30-06 or 280 Rem brass and then fire form it
• Don't have to deal with belted magnum brass; for some folks, that's not an issue, others don't like fooling with it. YMMV

The Bad:

• If you forget your ammo at home, you're probably SOL.
• I get the best results with Peterson brass, but you might have to wait a while to be able to get it, as they only run it a couple times a year

If I were going to go to the trouble of building a custom rifle, I'd make sure the barrel had a 1:9 twist. Most 7mm rifle bores are 1:9.5, which is fine up to 175 gr bullets, but if you want to go heavier, it starts getting to marginal territory on stability

 

[Inline6]

Might as well take a look at 280 AI if you're going to take that route.
The Good:

• 22" barrel will generally get you full velocity
• 1 more cartridge in the mag
• LR primers instead of LRM
• for hand loaders, there is MV overlap from the bottom end to the top end with 7mm RM - a quick glance at Nosler's data shows this, and my own reloading demonstrates it. I'm getting just short of 3K fps with 160 gr A Frames
• It'll fire 280 Rem ammo
• about 15-20% less powder to produce the same MV as 7mm RM
• In a pinch for brass, you can always use 30-06 or 280 Rem brass and then fire form it
• Don't have to deal with belted magnum brass; for some folks, that's not an issue, others don't like fooling with it. YMMV

The Bad:

• If you forget your ammo at home, you're probably SOL.
• I get the best results with Peterson brass, but you might have to wait a while to be able to get it, as they only run it a couple times a year

If I were going to go to the trouble of building a custom rifle, I'd make sure the barrel had a 1:9 twist. Most 7mm rifle bores are 1:9.5, which is fine up to 175 gr bullets, but if you want to go heavier, it starts getting to marginal territory on stability

If you are going custom 7mm might as well go 1-8, especially when you are look on the low side of velocities. We also know new bullets come out. Most of the time, they are long and requires a faster twist. Until you start spinning bullets past 300k rpm, over spinning should not be an issue.

 

[sgt_zim]

If you are going custom 7mm might as well go 1-8, especially when you are look on the low side of velocities. We also know new bullets come out. Most of the time, they are long and requires a faster twist. Until you start spinning bullets past 300k rpm, over spinning should not be an issue.

Twist Rate Stability Calculator

Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.

bergerbullets.com

Hard to say what the future might bring in bullets, but I doubt any 7mm bullet will go heavier than 185 or 190. Past there is going to really eat into case capacity, and the Nosler 185 gr already has a .7 BC with a MV range from 2600 to 2800

 

[Red Leg]

My whole problem with this particular question and line of discussion is the initial premise - that someone who acknowledges he is "new to this" would somehow conclude that attempting to shoot game at 500 yards is the solution to being inexperienced in the region he is planning to hunt.

"That being said, I'd probably be a public land draw hunter out west. With limited time to scout with a young one at home and about a 1000-1800 mile drive, opportunities need to be maximized. Scouting out and patterning a bull elk or other animal for weeks just isn't going to happen."

Based on just a bit of experience, very few animals drop at the shot. The greater the range, the less likely that is to happen. As others have noted, nothing that can be fired from anything but a gun carriage hits "like a freight train" at 500 yards. That means you almost certainly will have to find the animal you shot. The likelihood that he will be lying in the middle of an open pasture is extremely improbable. I can not impress upon you enough how difficult it will be to find where the animal stood on another ridge or across a canyon - a 500 yard shot that you may have to walk a mile and a half to reach. It is very difficult to trail and find even a perfectly hit animal if one does not have a starting place.

I would use the rifle that offers you the greatest chance to put a bullet of sufficient quality and weight exactly where it needs to go out to three hundred yards and a bit. It would not be a 6.5. That will cover 95% of the opportunities you will have out west (or anywhere else).

 

[revturbo9967]

Twist Rate Stability Calculator

Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.

bergerbullets.com

Hard to say what the future might bring in bullets, but I doubt any 7mm bullet will go heavier than 185 or 190. Past there is going to really eat into case capacity, and the Nosler 185 gr already has a .7 BC with a MV range from 2600 to 2800

I have shot the 195 gr eol out of my 28 nosler. they fly like a dream. Not sure if I want to attempt killing with that bullet though.

 

[Inline6]

Twist Rate Stability Calculator

Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.

bergerbullets.com

Hard to say what the future might bring in bullets, but I doubt any 7mm bullet will go heavier than 185 or 190. Past there is going to really eat into case capacity, and the Nosler 185 gr already has a .7 BC with a MV range from 2600 to 2800

Berger has 195s (G7 .387) now.

Hornady 180gr ELDM (G7 .401) suggest 1:8 mini.

With the 7PRC just getting it's legs. We could possibly see a little longer bullets. It just depends on demand. I also think we will see more requirements for monos in public hunting lands sooner rather than later. Monos will be longer per weight, they will still need the faster twist rate to stabilize them all things being equal.