Long Range Precision Hunting - Recoil/Caliber vs. Terminal Ballistics

[Inline6]

So a few things....

First let's get this out of the way, all bullets drop and after 300-400 they start dropping faster. When you say a 300WM drops little at 500 yards would like to ask what you think that actually is?

Equipment, you need good equipment. Good scope that tracks true, good range finder, and a rifle that will put them where they are supposed to go.

Yes I'm in the same camp as you. If the only opportunity I had at an elk was 800 yards. AND big AND! The conditions were right I would have no problems taking that shot. It requires shooting a good ammo to understand the limits of the conditions presented. On a calm day with a decent shooter, I can have you ringing steel at 1k. In 15mph winds that are letting off and picking up or switching up without me giving any corrections...it will be a different outcome.


As far as what rifle I would buy, I just put my order in a month ago, 7PRC.

Not everyone has to agree with the style of hunting. That said I'm not a fan of shows advocating shooting animals at long range. The truth is they only show the kills not the ones that limped off to die and were not found.

 

[geoff rath]

A BIG heap of excellent advice from highly experienced, ethical hunters here; I don't qualify. I'll reserve my comments to areas of which I know a little...
You write of a heavier-barrelled rifle; is it really necessary? There are a lot of highly capable commercial sporters available that can produce sub-MOA groups way out there, IN THE RIGHT HANDS. Listen to and read posts here, great advice.
Caliber-wise, a good 7mm or 30.06 should suffice; my custom 300WSM (Ruger No 1) is capable out to 1K. I wouldn't hunt that way.
Recoil: to me, the prime factor in handling recoil is proper stock fit; have a stock made/installed that's as individual to you as your fingerprints; might cost more but you'll know the difference.
Very best to you and your Son in your endeavours.

 

[steve white]

Stock fit does affect perceived recoil. A guy with a pained look asked me to finish sighting in two rifles--one a WM 458 and the other a 375 H&H. One of the rifles was a Ruger no1 tropical, the other a Heym. I don't remember which was which, but strangely, the 458 was more comfortable than the 375!

 

[Tra3]

Unless you get a spine shot or go through a front shoulder bone (and Meat) elk can take a bullet standing. Don’t expect anything to “hit like a freight train”, especially at 500+ yards. At that distance a successful follow-up shot is unlikely.

I’m sure there are shooters on this forum that have the experience and skill to make a long shot on an elk. The only way to really learn how difficult that shot is would be to practice in varying conditions and see how close your 1st shot really comes. Most will be surprised at how big the margin of error becomes. Since the USA doesn’t charge a trophy fee for poorly hit, unrecovered animals, people take chances they should not.

I settled on a 7 mm rem mag. It works. It is common. Low recoil. That was my pick after 20 years hunting with a .270 win. They are about the same.

 

[trperk1]

My experience is that you don’t damage your weapons from using them if you care for them. Meaning clean them after each hunt and care for them during transport. Use your Browning, it’ll mean more to you in the end

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

This question warrants a little backstory. I've hunted 90% waterfowl for the 10 years I've been hunting (late bloomer, started at age 30). 1-2 years ago I pulled the trigger on a rare "Maple White Gold Medallion" Browning X-Bolt in 300WM which has a Leupold VX5HD in 3-15x 44mm on it. In love with the gun but there's one problem: It's just too pretty to potentially be dragging through a forest in NA in the rain, mud, and brush. Same goes for thick bush hunts in Africa and other areas. For RSA in May it will be fine, which is what I bought it for. But after that it will likely be relinquished to the safe as a sort of heirloom and/or brought back to Africa for plains game in the future.

Now I am really thinking for the future, especially with my son as a hunting buddy. I'd like to potentially get another rifle in maybe a different caliber. Something with more of a robust finish for dragging through brush, something with a slightly heavier precision barrel, and setup for more long range opportunities (300 yd plus).

Being new to this, I've gotten swept up in the caliber debate.

300WM - Hits like a freight train at 500 yds, minimal drop, but the recoil is a bit much. Plus I already have one.
6.5 Creed - Minimal drop, but terminal ballistics lack the energy for bigger game.
308 - Great tried and true round, but tons of drop at 500 yds.
30-06 - See 308

I'm really interested in the PRC calibers like 6.5PRC for example. But how is the recoil? It seems like the 6.5 PRC might fit the bill with 25% less reported recoil than the 300WM.

Any other suggestions to think outside of the box here?

EDIT: 7mm Rem Mag looks pretty solid in terms of ballistics vs. recoil as well.

Are you trying to justify another rifle purchase from your wife?!? If so just buy one and ask for forgiveness latter. We'll help you come-up with the reasons. If your wife knows anything about guns/hunting, she knows your current rifle can do everything you've described AND you can also get a replacement stock to avoid scratching this beautiful hunting tool. If she doesn't then you should be debating rifles not caliber and shopping for the best deal in a rifle you don't mind getting some scratches on.

Now if you're asking for different calibers, we need to know what you want to hunt/shoot, hunting location/style, etc. I'm going to ignore skill because that can all be learned/taught with enough investment in ammo/training (provided you don't need to get permission from the wife). If you go with a 300WM, you can shoot the same ammo, only shopping 1 caliber, if you and your son go together and 1 of you forget your ammo you can share, now your reason is you're buying your son a rifle.

All of the other calibers you've mentioned will do exactly what you want on medium sized game (White-Tail) inside 500 yards if you have the skills. The .308, .30-06, and 7Mag will be fine on Mule Deer and Elk as well within that range (given a quality hunting bullet). They'll also be good on Moose under 300 yds and most African game. For the Average Hunter/Shooter today, a 6.5PRC is gonna top out on Mule Deer. The Average Hunter/Shooter today no longer has the skills to hold a 5 Shot a sub MOA group out to 500 yards like the rifleman of the past.

If you're predominantly hunting white-tail I think you'd best be served with something smaller than a .300WM and would suggest .243, .270, 7mm-08, .308, .30-06. Depending on your son's age the .243 and 7mm-08 are good guns for him that you can grow with him over time, but you'll also find pleasurable to shoot. The last few years has given a major resurgence to the old standby calibers when sales were declining (.308, .270, .30-06, .300WM), and really slowed sales on some of the newer/rebranded calibers, especially the 6.5's and PRC's. If you want a 7mm (especially to avoid recoil) I think the .280AI is King, followed by the .270 Win if you don't reload or already have ammo to support the .280AI. If ammo can get pumped out the marketing on 7PRC is going to make this the new "it" caliber.

I own rifles in all of the current PRC calibers (to include multiple 7PRC) and none have any blood on them. Of the calibers you've mentioned 7 Mag is the only one I don't own, because it does nothing better than a .300WM. If I need bigger than a .270, .308, or .30-06 then I'll grab the .300WM.

What I find myself shooting depending upon the animal and hunting style are below
.257 Weatherby, .280AI (sub 6.5lb scoped/loaded), .308 Win, .300WM, .375 H&H

Happy Shopping!!!!

 

[HookMeUpII]

Gentlemen, thank you all for the input. I understand there are some strong feelings for and against this type of shot/style of hunting/etc. I had a super busy weekend so I'm now just getting the chance to read the input.

To those who disagree with the idea of taking a skilled, trained, and practiced shot on game. I do understand where you are coming from. I don't necessarily agree with it but I understand.

I am going to go through the responses and educate myself on what the next rifle platform I might be purchasing is.

 

[gillettehunter]

I have noticed that a couple of us that live out west are much more comfortable with longer range shots. Most African shots are at closer ranges, thus the varied responses. My Deer last year was at a lasered 387 yds. Not gonna get closer. Good equipment and practice and a 1 shot kill. Most of my pronghorn are in excess of 250 yds.
In order to be competent you need a good accurate rifle/ammo combination and plenty of practice. I shoot out to 1000 yds enough to know I won't shoot at a big game animal that far away.
Your question is caliber. My question to you is do you reload? If so , then that opens up a lot of possibilities. I use a 7 SAUM and a 6.5 SS. The SS probably should of been done as a 6.5 PRC. At the time PRC had just come out and I had no clue how it would be received. Little practical difference.
My 7 SAUM (as well as the 7 mag and PRC) will all run a heavy for caliber bullet (175-180 gr) at 2900 fps. Plenty of energy to kill an elk at 800 yds. In the SS (or PRC) you can run a 156 gr bullet at close to 3000 fps. If you think about it, that's more energy than what you get from a .270 with a 150 gr bullet at 2900 fps.
I'll admit after killing around 40 elk that I prefer the a .28 caliber or bigger bullet. So if you don't reload look at the 7 Mag or 7 PRC. If you do reload or plan to start then you can expand the possible cartridges to look at.
I would post links to a couple of forums that have info on long range hunting/shooting, but AH doesn't allow that. Not even in a PM. If that is of interest then PM me and well chat on the phone.
In terms of a rifle, I want something that shoots .75 MOA proven at distance, not just 100 yds. You'll spend a little more upfront, but thats better than getting a rifle that won't shoot 2 MOA. Good luck and let me know if I can answer any further questions.
Bruce

 

[1dirthawker]

@HookMeUpII

a couple thoughts. when i was in my 20's and 30's i had a 7 mag and chased velocity and ballistic coefficient. this is before rangefinders, etc. i shot at a deer at just beyond 500 yards (judged by bullet drop on where i hit) no wind (never took it into account back then) clipped its front leg above the elbow, and it took off and got away. not my finest moment, never shot at anything near that far away again. (btw, wind is the biggest enemy of precision shooting)

i think then as i aged i started making better choices regarding hunting and less concerned about that last 25 fps. and super tiny groups.

at 40 i started guiding big game in alaska, now, i don't allow hunters to shoot at a brown bear over 200 yards and ideal range is 50-75 yards. when shooting big, tough and dangerous animals, likely it will need to be shot more than once and once over 250 yards, it is unlikely to make good hits on any moving animal. then the animal pays for your mistake (like the one mentioned above). oh, and you will pay too, you are DONE hunting.

the farther away one gets, the more likely to do a poor job of hitting the animal well and killing it cleanly. i suspect THAT FACTOR ALONE, is what has the others on this thread concerned, both for the animal AND your hunting experience.

regarding you gun choice, get one that is appropriate to the animals you want to hunt and have fun!

 

[HookMeUpII]

I really laugh at these comments of 200-300yds being far shots, you have to be joking?? . I have a range with gongs every 100yds to 1760yds and I shoot them all summer. I don't even shoot the 200 and 300 gongs because it's too easy and just tears up the steel. The mere thought of it being "Too far" is comical.

Get out there train, shoot, and become deadly.

I sort of felt the same way, frankly speaking. I get the difference in opinion. The slope is slippery here in this thread. I personally don't know how I feel about YouTube videos with hunters popping elk at 1200 yds. To someone else's point, we only see the successes. Then again, maybe this is someone who could shoot the hair off a gnats behind at 1000 yds? To your point, I know of many individuals who have made shots around the 300 yd realm. It gets fewer and slimmer at 500-600 but still know of a few.

The "not sporting" issue is what I feel is not a fair statement. I alluded to a few things. Like potentially shooting a lion/lioness under a tree at 10 yds. I just can't see myself ever doing it but I support every one who does through the legal/proper channels. Yes, it's dangerous but at the same time, it's 10 yds. I don't personally ever see myself deer hunting where I live. In NJ the hunters have a reputation of going bait-crazy. But...it's legal (depending on the unit) and I support them as long as they are within the legal framework.

Like I said, if you check the boxes, you shouldn't be criticized.

- Is what you are doing/attempting legal?
-Are you trained and seasoned with it?
-Do you have a high level of confidence that you can track the animal?
-Do you have a high level of confidence, with the track, that you can recover it?

If you can check all those boxes, who is what to say is "sporting" or not? Also to your point, I even support the person who shoots the lion under the tree at 10 yds. For the reason you stated: United we stand and divided we fall. As long as it's legal, not another inch am I willing to give.

 

[spike.t]

Use the browning 300 win...what's the point of having it unless you going to use it...why put it in the safe and forget about it?...

 

[TMac]

I have noticed that a couple of us that live out west are much more comfortable with longer range shots. Most African shots are at closer ranges, thus the varied responses. My Deer last year was at a lasered 387 yds. Not gonna get closer. Good equipment and practice and a 1 shot kill. Most of my pronghorn are in excess of 250 yds.
In order to be competent you need a good accurate rifle/ammo combination and plenty of practice. I shoot out to 1000 yds enough to know I won't shoot at a big game animal that far away.
Your question is caliber. My question to you is do you reload? If so , then that opens up a lot of possibilities. I use a 7 SAUM and a 6.5 SS. The SS probably should of been done as a 6.5 PRC. At the time PRC had just come out and I had no clue how it would be received. Little practical difference.
My 7 SAUM (as well as the 7 mag and PRC) will all run a heavy for caliber bullet (175-180 gr) at 2900 fps. Plenty of energy to kill an elk at 800 yds. In the SS (or PRC) you can run a 156 gr bullet at close to 3000 fps. If you think about it, that's more energy than what you get from a .270 with a 150 gr bullet at 2900 fps.
I'll admit after killing around 40 elk that I prefer the a .28 caliber or bigger bullet. So if you don't reload look at the 7 Mag or 7 PRC. If you do reload or plan to start then you can expand the possible cartridges to look at.
I would post links to a couple of forums that have info on long range hunting/shooting, but AH doesn't allow that. Not even in a PM. If that is of interest then PM me and well chat on the phone.
In terms of a rifle, I want something that shoots .75 MOA proven at distance, not just 100 yds. You'll spend a little more upfront, but thats better than getting a rifle that won't shoot 2 MOA. Good luck and let me know if I can answer any further questions.
Bruce

It tends to be a horses for courses fit in terms of internet opinions, imo. The ability to kill effectively at distance is one of those better to have and not need than need and not have skills. That’s how I roll anyway. The need and not have is where bad things often occur.

The funny thing for me is two of my three best Mule Deer were taken at bow range, 25 feet and 25 yards, the third was 415 yards. I only hunt with a rifle, lol.

 

[revturbo9967]

I sort of felt the same way, frankly speaking. I get the difference in opinion. The slope is slippery here in this thread. I personally don't know how I feel about YouTube videos with hunters popping elk at 1200 yds. To someone else's point, we only see the successes. Then again, maybe this is someone who could shoot the hair off a gnats behind at 1000 yds? To your point, I know of many individuals who have made shots around the 300 yd realm. It gets fewer and slimmer at 500-600 but still know of a few.

The "not sporting" issue is what I feel is not a fair statement. I alluded to a few things. Like potentially shooting a lion/lioness under a tree at 10 yds. I just can't see myself ever doing it but I support every one who does through the legal/proper channels. Yes, it's dangerous but at the same time, it's 10 yds. I don't personally ever see myself deer hunting where I live. In NJ the hunters have a reputation of going bait-crazy. But...it's legal (depending on the unit) and I support them as long as they are within the legal framework.

Like I said, if you check the boxes, you shouldn't be criticized.

- Is what you are doing/attempting legal?
-Are you trained and seasoned with it?
-Do you have a high level of confidence that you can track the animal?
-Do you have a high level of confidence, with the track, that you can recover it?

If you can check all those boxes, who is what to say is "sporting" or not? Also to your point, I even support the person who shoots the lion under the tree at 10 yds. For the reason you stated: United we stand and divided we fall. As long as it's legal, not another inch am I willing to give.

Having confidence is one thing, but wounding an animal because it moved before the bullet got there is a different story. I’m all for longer shots on game, more so than most are comfortable or even ok with on here, however it is all within reason of the situation and game. If I have the opportunity to get closer, I’ll get closer because far less can go wrong with what is not in your control, like the animal. Remember this is an African hunting forum where if you draw blood, you pay regardless if you find the animal or not. Trophy fees on certain animals, like DG are not cheap so getting closer is always the best choice vs taking a risky shot. And forgetting the trophy fee, it isn’t humane to wound animals with risky shots.
As far as the 6.5 prc , I wouldn’t use it on anything larger than a muley. Even heavy for caliber bullets 140gr and up have a lower SD and less than ideal for elk. The 160 gr interlock has a high SD but low BC so where’s the trade off? Many outfits are banning the 6.5 prc as well as the creed due to lost game. In Africa they say to bring enough gun for the largest game on your bag list, it should be the same over here.

 

[sgt_zim]

Probably only @Shootist43 is a bigger fan of 6.5x55 than I am. That said, the problem with ANY of the 6.5 bullets and your concern for elevation compensation is that except for Woodleigh 160 gr (which is unavailable for the foreseeable future) is they have crap ballistic coefficients. And excessive velocity loss is not the primary issue with them (think Norma Oryx 156 gr and Lapua Mega 155 gr), it's wind drift. A bullet with a BC under .4 just won't feed the bulldog for long range shooting. Of the bullets left, your choices boil down to 140 gr Partition, Accubond, and A Frame. Of those 3, only the Partition is going to provide good expansion down below 2k fps.

At a BC of .625, a 143 gr ELD-X is an excellent choice if your only considerations are drop and wind drift. Unfortunately, when fired out of a 6.5 PRC, if you get lucky and end up with a 75 yard shot, the bullet is going to fragment so horribly that you're unlikely to produce anything more than a nasty flesh wound (read about John Nosler's account of a moose hunt with his 300 H&H Mag from about 75 or 100 yards - it's why premium bullets were ever even invented).

Compensating for wind drift at long range is WAY more important than compensating for elevation. The latter is just plugging in the numbers. At 500 yards in the mountains, it's entirely possible that a bullet may travel through wind blowing/swirling from 3 or 4 different directions, and at 3 or 4 different speeds. A higher BC bullet helps minimize the effects of that. For hunting bullets, that really means no smaller than 160 gr in any of the 7mm, and preferably 175 gr. For 30 cal, it means 190 gr or heavier. Drop the idea of using any of the 6.5s for that kind of shooting. Yeah, I know there have been a number of guys who did it, but you said yourself what sort of effort you're going to put into the hunt. For that kind of hunting, any 6.5 is just a really bad idea.

If you can't consistently shoot 3/4" at 100 yards off the bench, scrub the idea entirely that you will take any 500 or 600 yard shots while hunting.

Of the guys responding to this thread, you're probably looking at 600-700 years worth of big game hunting experience, maybe more than that. It would be wise to heed their advice.

Also, with your plans of potentially taking long shots, you're thinking of NJ-type terrain, not the mountain west. A 500 yard shot, even if the elk drops on the spot, may be a 2 or 3 mile hike to actually get to it, and at elevations between 5000 and 10,000 feet. The highest elevation you have in your whole state is just under 2K feet. That won't prepare you for the kind of terrain you'll encounter out west. Then there's humping out 300-400 lbs of meat over terrain that it just took you 3 or 4 hours to cover maybe a mile or 2 with only your rifle and whatever gear you have in your day pack.

For a 54 year old man, I'm in pretty good shape. But the 4000-5000 foot mountains I hiked in Idaho on a bear hunt were an absolute kick in the nuts for me.

I applaud your enthusiasm, truly. But you need to listen to the guys who've been there and done that. Your expectations aren't merely unrealistic, they're dangerous.

 

[450 Dakota]

I would do my research on some long range forums. Don’t go to a bass fishing forum to learn fly fishing.

 

[Tra3]

^^^ @sgt_zim is spot on.

 

[Inline6]

At a BC of .625, a 143 gr ELD-X is an excellent choice if your only considerations are drop and wind drift. Unfortunately, when fired out of a 6.5 PRC, if you get lucky and end up with a 75 yard shot, the bullet is going to fragment so horribly that you're unlikely to produce anything more than a nasty flesh wound (read about John Nosler's account of a moose hunt with his 300 H&H Mag from about 75 or 100 yards - it's why premium bullets were ever even invented).

I have heard this before, have yet to see it in person. I'm not saying it can't happen. I have just never laid eyes on it.

I have shot deer at 3 yards away with a 300wm using a 168SMK clocking over 3200fps. It made a mess of the boiler room. Shot a red stag cow at 40 yards with a 285gr ELDX going 2915 of of a 338LM mag, bullet travel 4' in her and retained 70% of its weight. Have had family members shoot several deer @ 30 yards while I was in the blind with a 6XC, that was a Berger 105 target bullet moving at 3050fps. The bullet fragmented it does that at 200 yards too.

The SDs of the 6.5s are higher than most calibers, that was one of the reasons gun writers hamstrung the 6.5CM and how it got compared to the 300wm. A 6.5PRC with a 156 (G7 of .347) is not what I would choose for elk. If it was the only rifle I had. I would not hesitate to take it either. It has a sectional density of. 320 it is carrying 1500# of energy at 650 yards. It will get the job done. That is a 2950fps mv load, have friends that are knocking on the door of 3k.

Also know several people who have killed up to Eland with the 6.5 PRC, 6.5 SAUM, and 6.5x284. To say it is not worthy is not a fair statement.

As far as the rest of it goes, I live in flat south Texas. When I train for mountain hunting. I have a pack I load with an 80# sack of concrete and carry a 20# kettle bell in each hand and walk for miles. If you have a will you will find a way.

 

[sgt_zim]

I have heard this before, have yet to see it in person. I'm not saying it can't happen. I have just never laid eyes on it.

I have shot deer at 3 yards away with a 300wm using a 168SMK clocking over 3200fps. It made a mess of the boiler room. Shot a red stag cow at 40 yards with a 285gr ELDX going 2915 of of a 338LM mag, bullet travel 4' in her and retained 70% of its weight. Have had family members shoot several deer @ 30 yards while I was in the blind with a 6XC, that was a Berger 105 target bullet moving at 3050fps. The bullet fragmented it does that at 200 yards too.

Hunters have been successfully using cup and core bullets for a century. I didn't say they won't work, but they are a poor choice given the options today, especially for fast-moving bullets. Why take the risk with a cup and core bullet? Glad that you haven't had any problems, but lots of guys have. The 7mm RM was very nearly a failed cartridge precisely because of cup-and-core bullet jacket separation. This isn't even a matter of speculation.

This article doesn't mention it, but Nosler had to shoot that moose 7 or 8 times because of bullet failure, and 300 H&H mag isn't THAT fast of a bullet, sitting between 30-06 and 300 WM. https://modernhuntsman.com/nosler-tradition-of-excellence/

7mm RM failures

7mm mag bullets breaking up

I have a puzzle. To start, last year, I hunted a lioness in SA. I used a 7 mm mag provided by the outfitter. (Let's not down the rat hole of whether or not that was a legal caliber - I don't know the answer.) It took several shots to kill her. I know that I hit her every time - I could see the...

www.africahunting.com

As far as getting in shape, the guy who owns the property next to mine in Louisiana is an elk guide in Colorado. The number of guys from our neck of the woods who show up ill-prepared as far as being in shape is unfortunately not uncommon. Good on you for working your ass off to get in shape for those hunts. He's literally had to drag hunters just the last 40 or 50 yards up slope to get them set up for a shot, and they're so out of breath, they often miss (or never even get to pull the trigger because the elk has walked off before he could catch his breath enough to shoot) what are essentially chip shots. He's had hunters that gave up on the 2nd or 3rd day of a hunt because they couldn't take the punishing physical effort.

With everything that can go wrong on a hunt, and with that all-important 1st shot, bullet selection is easily the one factor we have absolute control over to ensure the odds are in our favor. There is a reason PHs prefer seeing their clients come into camp loaded up with A Frame, North Fork, TSX, Oryx, Weldcore, TBBC, Rhino, CEB, and a number of others.

You do you, amigo. For me, I can't see spending 10K (or more) on a hunt, plus put in all that effort on preparation, physical readiness, physical exertion on the hunt, and the absolute pain in the ass of air travel to take a chance on bullet failure, especially when the difference in price between cup-and-core and premium will be no more than a $1 - $2 or so per cartridge. Ammo is far and away THE least expensive part of a hunt.

I'll go a step further. We owe it to the animals we are going to kill to go in with the greatest odds of putting them down cleanly with a single shot. Bullet failure rate for cup-and-core may only be 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100 (for John Nosler, it was apparently 6 or 7 out of 8), but when that 1 comes up, odds are good that you're going to leave a wounded animal in the field. In NA, that probably means a slow, lingering death over a few days or weeks. In Africa, it means they're going to get pulled down by predators. We hunters preach endlessly to non-hunters about giving an animal a better, cleaner, quicker, less painful death than nature is going to give them. A bullet failure does the opposite of that. It isn't worth the risk, however minimal that may be.

 

[Inline6]

Hunters have been successfully using cup and core bullets for a century. I didn't say they won't work, but they are a poor choice given the options today, especially for fast-moving bullets. Why take the risk with a cup and core bullet? Glad that you haven't had any problems, but lots of guys have. The 7mm RM was very nearly a failed cartridge precisely because of cup-and-core bullet jacket separation. This isn't even a matter of speculation.

This article doesn't mention it, but Nosler had to shoot that moose 7 or 8 times because of bullet failure, and 300 H&H mag isn't THAT fast of a bullet, sitting between 30-06 and 300 WM. https://modernhuntsman.com/nosler-tradition-of-excellence/

7mm RM failures

7mm mag bullets breaking up

I have a puzzle. To start, last year, I hunted a lioness in SA. I used a 7 mm mag provided by the outfitter. (Let's not down the rat hole of whether or not that was a legal caliber - I don't know the answer.) It took several shots to kill her. I know that I hit her every time - I could see the...

www.africahunting.com

As far as getting in shape, the guy who owns the property next to mine in Louisiana is an elk guide in Colorado. The number of guys from our neck of the woods who show up ill-prepared as far as being in shape is unfortunately not uncommon. Good on you for working your ass off to get in shape for those hunts. He's literally had to drag hunters just the last 40 or 50 yards up slope to get them set up for a shot, and they're so out of breath, they often miss (or never even get to pull the trigger because the elk has walked off before he could catch his breath enough to shoot) what are essentially chip shots. He's had hunters that gave up on the 2nd or 3rd day of a hunt because they couldn't take the punishing physical effort.

With everything that can go wrong on a hunt, and with that all-important 1st shot, bullet selection is easily the one factor we have absolute control over to ensure the odds are in our favor. There is a reason PHs prefer seeing their clients come into camp loaded up with A Frame, North Fork, TSX, Oryx, Weldcore, TBBC, Rhino, CEB, and a number of others.

You do you, amigo. For me, I can't see spending 10K (or more) on a hunt, plus put in all that effort on preparation, physical readiness, physical exertion on the hunt, and the absolute pain in the ass of air travel to take a chance on bullet failure, especially when the difference in price between cup-and-core and premium will be no more than a $1 - $2 or so per cartridge. Ammo is far and away THE least expensive part of a hunt.

I'll go a step further. We owe it to the animals we are going to kill to go in with the greatest odds of putting them down cleanly with a single shot. Bullet failure rate for cup-and-core may only be 1 in 10 or even 1 in 100 (for John Nosler, it was apparently 6 or 7 out of 8), but when that 1 comes up, odds are good that you're going to leave a wounded animal in the field. In NA, that probably means a slow, lingering death over a few days or weeks. In Africa, it means they're going to get pulled down by predators. We hunters preach endlessly to non-hunters about giving an animal a better, cleaner, quicker, less painful death than nature is going to give them. A bullet failure does the opposite of that. It isn't worth the risk, however minimal that may be.

I stated I have never personally experienced this type of bullet failure. From the sound of it you have not either. I stated the bullets that I had experience with and their results, nothing more. Some bullets perform better than others. You and I both agree we owe the game the fastest death possible. To that I will say the bullets I have used provided that. As in over 90% were DRT. The others were recovered in less than 40 yards. Having hunted with monos and bonded bullets the opposite was true 90% ran 40+ yards and 10% were DRT. They all died having witnessed with my own eyes all the animals taken. I'm of a different camp then most here, I want the energy of my bullet to be expended in the game not the ground. If the bullet goes in 3-4" and frags I'm okay with it. I have seen the trauma caused. You understand that animals cannot function when their chest is full of jello (which used to be lungs, and heart). When a mono and bonded bullet pass through, for the most part it punches a hole. When the faster cartridges are used, this is when I have seen the mono and bonded bullets produce DRT results. We are talking 300wm pushing a 180 at over 3k and to be fair a 458Lott pushing a 450gr TSX at 2350 (hog was 10 yards or a little less).

I never once advocated the bullets I mentioned for use on dangerous game.

As far as people getting in shape for a hunt. That is a personal responsibility. Like anything else in life you have a choice to make. My last Elk hunt I was working 12-14 hour days driving 3 hours back and forth to work (1.5 each way). I made time to train, I knew how hard it would be. I gave up sleep to have have time to train. It was really that easy, 4 hours was my average and was able to sleep more on the weekends. Was not going to let myself or my buddy down by not being in shape. He messed up his knee 3 days before the hunt. He pushed through it I added on some of his kit to take the load off of him (he would have done the same for me).

Again this is a personal choice, if the OP puts the work in on the shooting side. He might already be in physically good shape, might just have to get his body accustomed to carry a heavy pack. I was able to walk miles with 80# on my back in the mountains without training when I was in my late 20s in my mid 40s not the case. I had to work up to it. 40, 50, 60, 70, eventually up to 80. Towards the end I would round out to 100 just to mimic a load out of meat.

We read a lot of things and not all of it can be proven. Experience counts for a lot. Everyone has free will, that said make the best decision you can with the information provided.

Anyone that wants to hunt, do some research. Most of the time it is not as bad/hard as it sounds. Be willing to put the work in, we make our own luck by being prepared.

Shooting long range is easier than it has ever been in the history of man. Take a class, the money spent is worth it. You don't know what you don't know so get educated.

 

[HookMeUpII]

As far as getting in shape, the guy who owns the property next to mine in Louisiana is an elk guide in Colorado. The number of guys from our neck of the woods who show up ill-prepared as far as being in shape is unfortunately not uncommon. Good on you for working your ass off to get in shape for those hunts. He's literally had to drag hunters just the last 40 or 50 yards up slope to get them set up for a shot, and they're so out of breath, they often miss (or never even get to pull the trigger because the elk has walked off before he could catch his breath enough to shoot) what are essentially chip shots. He's had hunters that gave up on the 2nd or 3rd day of a hunt because they couldn't take the punishing physical effort.

As far as people getting in shape for a hunt. That is a personal responsibility. Like anything else in life you have a choice to make. My last Elk hunt I was working 12-14 hour days driving 3 hours back and forth to work (1.5 each way). I made time to train, I knew how hard it would be. I gave up sleep to have have time to train. It was really that easy, 4 hours was my average and was able to sleep more on the weekends. Was not going to let myself or my buddy down by not being in shape. He messed up his knee 3 days before the hunt. He pushed through it I added on some of his kit to take the load off of him (he would have done the same for me).

As far as getting in shape or being in shape, I've had that mindset for probably the better part of 20 years now. Right now I typically hit the gym 3-4x a week with mostly kettlebells and cardio. The days of pushing heavy weight are behind me. I look for functional movements to help me get up from the ground, move forward, and move with resistance. I typically do quite a bit of hiking from February through June. Whether it's hiking in for predator hunting or turkey hunting. It's pretty much all hunting, not a big recreational hiker.

With that being said, I even understand I am no where near the shape I need to be for a NA-Western backpack style hunt. That's fine though. Because I really can't see this happening for 5 or more year. However, training has been a core part of my mindset for 20 years. I've physically trained for everything from bodybuilding, to tech/comm diving, to meeting physical quals for PSD/PMC work. And you are exactly right. Too many people do not realize how tiring and strenuous it is to even just go up 500' in elevation with a heavy kit. Last hike I did was about 3 miles in and 3 miles out, at night, for coyote up about 500' in elevation with a day pack, caller, decoy, heavy (too heavy) shotgun, water, ammo, and all the other crap that goes along with it. It was pretty pointless because I missed their scat about 100 yds from where my truck was parked. Tiring AND pointless to boot. At least the cardio was good.