Loads for .458 Winchester Magnum

[Badboymelvin]

I will also add that over the years I have been in several heated arguments over the .458 ... to many in fact to recall.
I have also written articles on it, hunt reports and loading / chronograph reports on it.
I don't tend to argue anymore about it - I just do my thing and let other people do the same.

When I state that I think it is perfectly adequate for DG including elephant, the old chestnut "how many elephants have you shot?" comes up.
"None!" is always my answer. I mean, I'm not going to lie about it.

But I still think that I can have an opinion on the topic. Let me explain...

I have read time and time again that a 480-500gn .458 caliber bullet at 2150fps is considered one of the 'Gold Standards' of DG hunting.
This has been proven time and time again and no-one really disputes it.

I can emphatically state here and now, that I have achieved this with my reloads using Woodleigh premium bullets.
So I reckon I can have faith in my reloads and can recommend them for DG when they reach and sometimes even surpass the 'Gold Standard'.
I even give people the loads I use so they can do the same and have shown them pics of the chronograph readings and fired cases to the sceptics to prove it

But to each their own.

As I said earlier, on my quest of knowledge I ask and PM a lot of questions to people who have used the .458 with complete success. I have learnt so much from doing this.
However I also listen and take on board what people like Major Khan and IvW, who have had bad experiences with it, have to say too. This is also how one learns...

 

[Timbo]

There were issues at the Somchem factories and we have not been able to get SA made powders for quite some time already.
I use Norma MRP for most of my loading, and will use Vihtavuori N150 for the 9.3x62.
Nearly all other powders are available here, apart from the Aussie stuff.

Alliant
Hodgdon
IMR
Norma
Vihtavuori

On this subject I am not particularly knowledgeable but only see issue being raised when shooting Elephant. And the guys who do that regularly have all converted their CZ's to Lott or 3inch.
("I have taken 6 DG" could be done with a 9.3x62 if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats.) This is the only time the .458 has been questioned, for everything else there is no issue if it hits at 1600fps or 2100fps.

If you're referencing my experience of taking 6 DG with my 458 Win Mag "could be done with a 9.3x62 if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats" then I suppose you haven't given your offhand statement much thought.

FYI many years ago, I chose to license a 458 Win Mag in consideration of a number of factors at that time I got approval - not least of which was the then availability of calibres for sale, and the deliberately restrictive licensing limitations as placed by the authorities - which were outside of my control and at the time when the Lott was a relatively new wildcat cartridge.

If you truly believe in your blanket statement to only use the 9.3x62 "if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats" then your dictum leaves one very much under-gunned if things turn nasty. So, insofar as no-one can ever 100% garuantee a client's safety in any situation - such as predict the behaviour or tenacity of a buffalo or of a cat once hit - I must consider your comment resulting from not fully thinking through the matter.

But it is for this precise reason, that I prefer using my 458 Win Mag over a 9.3x62 for DG - and will continue to do so. Indeed, in one close call with a very bellicose buff - which suddenly appeared after dropping my trophy - my PH was embarrassed for 2 reasons: 1) that he was armed with a 375HH, which is clearly not a charge-stopper, and 2) that said rifle was on his trackers' shoulder 50yds behind us. So in the moment, my 458 Win Mag was not only the better calibre for the situation, but also the only one at hand!! In the tense half minute or so, as I covered that buff while he demonstrated about whether to charge or not, not only my arse - but also that of my PH's too - would very much depend upon my ability with my rifle. In knowing my 458 over many years, I was quite confident if it came down to settling that situation.

The 9.3x62 is a very able and proven calibre which is ideal for those who are recoil shy, slight of frame, for open country, or in taking a herd bull from a farmed herd - and at all events, backed up by their PH with a charge-stopping calibre. Personally, I wouldn't opt to use one in dense bush, or in truly free chase environments, no matter what my PH is carrying. IMHO it all comes down to the client's capability with their chosen calibre, overshadowed by a sense of their personal safety really. So, in light of my personal experience, above, I'm just glad I don't share your view of using a 9.3x62 "if all you're shooting is Buffalo and Cats".

 

[Ray B]

The one question that I have when minimum weight/velocities are listed; in this case 500 gr at 2150 fps, is: given a RN .458 500 grain bullet has a BC of about 31, if the MV is 2050 it will have lost over 100 fps in the first 50 yards and be traveling at barely over 2000 fps. At 100 yards it's less than 1900 fps. So are the minimums supposed to be impact? If so, the MV needs to be closer to 2300 fps.

I've not shot an elephant but I've read about a lot of them that were shot with gives considerably less powerful than one that would have an impact of 500 grains traveling at 1800 FPS.

 

[Timbo]

The one question that I have when minimum weight/velocities are listed; in this case 500 gr at 2150 fps, is: given a RN .458 500 grain bullet has a BC of about 31, if the MV is 2050 it will have lost over 100 fps in the first 50 yards and be traveling at barely over 2000 fps. At 100 yards it's less than 1900 fps. So are the minimums supposed to be impact? If so, the MV needs to be closer to 2300 fps.

I've not shot an elephant but I've read about a lot of them that were shot with gives considerably less powerful than one that would have an impact of 500 grains traveling at 1800 FPS.

IMO placement is just as important as velocity. Even with the right MV, you can put multiple holes in elephant or buff and it still won't get you anywhere until you put a bullet (and preferably the very first one!) in the correct place.

For my needs I've used Woodleigh 500gr RNSN and FMJs with no problem, so have no need to drop to the 480 or 450gr bullets. IvW stated above that these bullets are not in the realm of the 458 calibre, but in fact today's manufacturers have indeed made them so by making them available through a 'fait accompli'.

But what I'd find very interesting is to experiment with these two bullets and see what results you'd get out of them with a Lott.

 

[Nhoro]

450 gr from 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby can achieve that.
500 gr from 458 Lott can exceed that so can the 450 Rigby.

450 gr bullets are not the realm of the 458 bolt action calibers...

A 505 gibbs and a 500 A square can exceed a 500 jeff with any bullet that you choose. By your logic, you need a new gun !

 

[Nhoro]

Using a 450 gr bullet in the .458 win mag- lets examine the facts. Sectional density is good (pretty much identical to a 300 gr x .375 bullet-well known for its penetration) Velocity is pretty good-2250 fps.

It will do the job despite what the haters say- on the biggest bull elephants. I have several friends who have done it- probably 10-15 elephants. I know they have 5 guides using win mag and for their qualifications, they need 3 elephant each.

 

[Ray B]

Sectional Density may have empirical status but it doesn't have logical. Sectional Density is actually a measure of the average length of the bullet. Logically, the ratio of average length to surface area should be part of the penetration function.

 

[Nhoro]

It is actually the ratio of its mass to its cross-sectional area.

Length is not part of the formula and length would not be strictly proportional because of bullet shape ie boat tail can add length but weigh the same as a shorter flat tail. However, generally a longer bullet is heavier, all things being equal.

So sectional density allows us to compare different calibres based with ALL other things being equal ie shape, materials, velocities etc.

 

[Hyde Hunter]

450 gr from 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby can achieve that.
500 gr from 458 Lott can exceed that so can the 450 Rigby.

450 gr bullets are not the realm of the 458 bolt action calibers...

with aa2230 powder it is very easy to up the load to 84 gr and achieve 6200 lbs of energy if you want more but pay the price with recoil something I do not wish to do especially with a bad shoulder and there is no reason to load anything over 450 grains with the high quality bullets we now have , I am trying to get Barnes to start selling the 400 gr TSX since they just ran a batch for Buffalo Bore,

 

[Ray B]

Shape (BT,RN,HP) has nothing to do with SD. The formula for SD is bullet weight divided by frontal surface area. Two bullets of different calibers, with the same material density (copper, lead) and to keep it simple, of cylindrical shape if they have the same SD, they will be the same length. A .224 bullet with a 300 SD will be long and narrow while the ..600 will be short and stubby, but they will both be the same length. The .224 will weigh considerably less than the .600. The .600 would have much more contact with the target animal so would encounter much more resistance.

 

[IvW]

A 505 gibbs and a 500 A square can exceed a 500 jeff with any bullet that you choose. By your logic, you need a new gun !

500 Jeff exceeds everything I have ever needed done unlike the 458 WM...get some practical field experience with a 500 Jeff on DG game and then get back to us....

Have you ever shot a 500 A Square with 600 gr bullets @ 2470 fps? Nope totally over board with horrendous recoil....

Your tea is getting cold.....

 

[Nhoro]

Shape (BT,RN,HP) has nothing to do with SD. The formula for SD is bullet weight divided by frontal surface area. Two bullets of different calibers, with the same material density (copper, lead) and to keep it simple, of cylindrical shape if they have the same SD, they will be the same length. A .224 bullet with a 300 SD will be long and narrow while the ..600 will be short and stubby, but they will both be the same length. The .224 will weigh considerably less than the .600. The .600 would have much more contact with the target animal so would encounter much more resistance.

A .224 bullet with SD .300 and a .600 bullet with SD .300 will not necessarily both be same length. They can be or maybe not.They do have the same weight per cross sectional area. If one is copper of the same weight, it will be longer. If one has a boat tail and spitzer but weight is the same, it will be longer. But they all have the same sectional density.

In addition, a 600 bullet with SD .300 would have a lot more weight or mass. So in a perfect world, it will penetrate exactly the same as a 224 bullet with 0.300 SD. Same mass per unit cross-sectional area. But it would need the same shape and impact velocity.

And a spitzer boat tail fmj will not penetrate the same as a flat nose/flat base bullet with the same SD-even if they are the same calibre. That is due to their shape and the way that shape passes through flesh/bone/lung tissue. So they can have different shapes with identical SD but penetrate differently. Point of fact- a bullet with better SD can penetrate worse because of its poor shape- See the thread on Flat nose vs Round nose. Also research boat tailed spitzers and tumbling in targets.

Bullet deformation/shape/velocities all impact penetration. So SD is useful to predict penetration when all these things are equal.

 

[Ray B]

Nevermind

 

[Nhoro]

500 Jeff exceeds everything I have ever needed done unlike the 458 WM...get some practical field experience with a 500 Jeff on DG game and then get back to us....

Have you ever shot a 500 A Square with 600 gr bullets @ 2470 fps? Nope totally over board with horrendous recoil....

Your tea is getting cold.....

IvW
Perhaps you should think a little about what you have said on this thread. You have insulted peoples caliber choice, you have called some people liars over their chrono results. You have used several posts to denigrated peoples lack of DG experience.

So knock yourself out... tell us we are all fools. But keep in mind that a whole bunch of potential clients roam these forums........ maybe not the best plan to keep your tea warm ?

 

[Nhoro]

Nevermind

Hey look man, I am not getting at you. Just disagree with your formula as stated. I know that you are saying generally the longer the bullet, the heavier it is, yes-generally true. And I agree, shape does not effect sectional density as a number. I am trying to say that to compare two bullets, you cannot compare sectional density in isolation.

 

[Ray B]

The SD formula is simple, weight divided by surface area. So a weight per square inch is calculated. Given a specific density, each bullet with that weight per square inch will have the same AVERAGE length. The average length will be the same regardless as to amount of square inches involved.

Penetration is determined by bullet force, bullet characteristics and the tissue characteristics. The average amount of bullet per square inch is not a major factor.

 

[Daga Boy]

I recently had my self-loaded .458 officially measured.
Also with the .480 gn bullet weight.
But all European components, that probably don't mean anything to you.
I' am also at 2.150 fps and still 14.500 psi below maximum.
Think .480gn is the best choice for .458
Any idea why it was created with 500 gn ?

The original factory load used a 510gr bullet over a heavily compressed powder charge (so heavy that that the bullets had to be glued into place). Whoever came up with that formula was confused, especially given the powders which were then available. 500gr should be viewed as the max projectile weight in .458WM . With monolithics 450gr is the standard. Bullets must definitely be crimped unless only for target practice. The Rhino 480gr bullet is a good choice as it has 2 grooves.

 

[Tim Blackwell]

Hi Doug,

The .458 is my absolute favourite caliber and I have a hand-load that has worked well for me.

My hand-load is as follows;

Winchester Case
Woodleigh 480gn RNSP
74gn of AR2206H (H4895)
CCI Mag primer
@2150fps (chronographed by me in a Zastava M70 with 24" barrel)

This is just a fantastic load. NEVER had a pressure problem, cloverleafs 3 shots at 50m and little compression.
The bullet just sits nice and snug on the powder... just perfect.

Russ

My exact load, mine in a Mk. X (same basic action). I think it suits the cartridge perfectly, the 480 being a tad shorter base-to-cannelure than the 500gn.
And it works on game.

 

[jwp475]

OK, I know that I'm going to catch a lot of grief for this, so please don't bother to tell me that I need a Lott. I used my .458 Win. Mag. to take exactly one cape buffalo bull on my first safari and I love the rifle. I'm going back to find another bull next year and the Winnie is going with me.
Now then, when I went before, I was using some older factory ammunition which I now know was not a good idea (although the bull died and the bullets didn't bounce along the ground to reach him).
I now reload for all of my hunting rifles and this hunt will also be "home-rolled." I am looking for good loads that aren't overly compressed or temperature sensitive yet still deliver the velocity that it was supposed to (2150 fps with 500 gr. bullets). The main problem with inconsistent velocities in this cartridge seems be around the use of tightly packed spherical powders which clump and don't burn evenly. I know some of you with more big-bore experience than I have an answer to this issue. Help please!

Nothing wrong with compressed loads. A case full of AA2230 will get 2150+ FPS with a 500 grain bullet

 

[Ray B]

Nothing wrong with compressed loads.

Not true for all powders and amounts of compression.