Loads for .458 Winchester Magnum

[Nhoro]

Great, not at all...just like to prove that each have their preferences....I guess you do not hunt using the Prado...you could I guess.....my cousins uncle....haha funny...one from Texas, one from Minneapolis and the other not sure....

Lets see the 458 WM was designed to fire a 510gr bullet @ 2150 fps, sadly it could not and still cannot achieve this. I chronographed Winchester ammo at 1800-1900 Fps, scary stuff...had on more than one occasion experienced issues with lack of penetration when used by people I have guided, others had issues with stuck cases as pressures had soured due to hot hand loads trying to achieve what it cannot....

Why load light for caliber bullets? Your own figures indicate it cannot achieve 2150 Fps with 480gr let alone a 510 gr bullet...

It has the smallest case capacity of all the 458 cartridges....93 gr water compared to the next one up the Lott @ 103 gr water.

Loaded with S321 71.8gr will yield only 2083 fps and 4818 ft lbs at a pressure of 58079 psi
The Lott with S321 80gr will yield 2250 fps and 5621 ft lbs

So the one falls far short and the other exceeds the target.

I prefer not to fool around with marginal calibers when it comes to DG therefore I use a 500 Jeff and have never been disappointing never mind the situation, unfortunately the same cannot be said of the 458 WM.

Hell if it works for you and you think it is the right caliber for even elephant under the worst conditions who am I to argue....for me it is no good for that task, it is marginal, does not achieve what it was supposed to.

If one needs to load lighter for caliber bullets to try and get a caliber to achieve what it should then rather step down in caliber.

I would use a 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby and even the 375 H&H with 340 gr bullets long before I even consider the 458 WM........

I started a thread some months back about this and guess what-Not one single person could provide one single chronograph result of 458 Win mag ammo that didn't make specification.Do a search-read it. Not one single person could bring any factual evidence that of all these fabled underperforming factory rounds. Of all the 458 win mags in all the world and no one would provide any chrono evidence of failure ? hundreds of people had something to say but no one came up with the goods.

And stop cherry picking 'facts':

You give one chrono result of a cartridge no longer in production (so 20 -30 years ago ?), from a company that has admitted to gluing undersized bullets into cartridges/spilling powder out on the production line and using cheap ass powder that clumps. However, you can't buy them so they are irrelevant. Get a current production factory round or better yet do the whole lot and put you money where your mouth is!

In addition you have run a computer simulation to further back up your facts. If you go to Peregrine bullets and look at their load data-(freely available on their website)-you will find the 500 gr VRG 2/3 copper monolithic data listing 71.8 gr OPTIMUM load for 2083 fps. They then list a MAX load of 74 gr for 2200 fps. Maybe it was just an oversight on your part to leave out the max load data. Maybe there is another bullet out there which uses exactly 71.8 gr to get 2083 fps and it is a max load ?

There is really no need to jump on every guys who has 458 win mag and belittle his choice and tell him that he is an idiot for having that calibre. It is not a Lott/Dakota/Rigby/Ackley/Watts. But all evidence shows that it delivers on its claims.If you dont want to use it yourself-all well and good. there is no need to to bully and fabricate 'facts'. I have seen the evidence with my own eyes- it makes 2140 fps at 18 degrees C with a 480 gr bullet with an uncompressed mild load. Same specifications as the vintage 470 NE but with better sectional density.

 

[IvW]

I started a thread some months back about this and guess what-Not one single person could provide one single chronograph result of 458 Win mag ammo that didn't make specification.Do a search-read it. Not one single person could bring any factual evidence that of all these fabled underperforming factory rounds. Of all the 458 win mags in all the world and no one would provide any chrono evidence of failure ? hundreds of people had something to say but no one came up with the goods.

And stop cherry picking 'facts':

You give one chrono result of a cartridge no longer in production (so 20 -30 years ago ?), from a company that has admitted to gluing undersized bullets into cartridges/spilling powder out on the production line and using cheap ass powder that clumps. However, you can't buy them so they are irrelevant. Get a current production factory round or better yet do the whole lot and put you money where your mouth is!

In addition you have run a computer simulation to further back up your facts. If you go to Peregrine bullets and look at their load data-(freely available on their website)-you will find the 500 gr VRG 2/3 copper monolithic data listing 71.8 gr OPTIMUM load for 2083 fps. They then list a MAX load of 74 gr for 2200 fps. Maybe it was just an oversight on your part to leave out the max load data. Maybe there is another bullet out there which uses exactly 71.8 gr to get 2083 fps and it is a max load ?

There is really no need to jump on every guys who has 458 win mag and belittle his choice and tell him that he is an idiot for having that calibre. It is not a Lott/Dakota/Rigby/Ackley/Watts. But all evidence shows that it delivers on its claims.If you dont want to use it yourself-all well and good. there is no need to to bully and fabricate 'facts'. I have seen the evidence with my own eyes- it makes 2140 fps at 18 degrees C with a 480 gr bullet with an uncompressed mild load. Same specifications as the vintage 470 NE but with better sectional density.

I guess nobody has proper chrono data cause not enough use the 458WM.

I did not run any computer simulations......Load data was done by Koos Badenhorst(Designer of the 458 Express) and Gary Bauer and have nothing to do with Peregrine bullets.......the load I gave was for a conventional soft nose bullet and the pressure is at 58079 Psi would be interesting to see where the pressure is with 74gr and using the 500 grain mono metal bullet....mmm max or over max recommended....unfortunately I cannot run such data to get to the result.

I never jumped on anybody who wants to or uses a 458 WM I have just stated in my opinion there are better choices in 458 caliber.
Yes I don't wanna use it and I do not recommend its use on DG in Africa especially elephant. That is my opinion and my choice which I am entitled to.
You or anybody else wanna use it on DG or as a backup rifle on elephant hell go ahead.

Stop getting so upset about opinions.

It was designed to do 2150 with a 510gr bullet which it cannot.

It was not designed to do 2140 at 18 degrees C(hell does it ever go that low in the valley?) with a 480 gr bullet, neither was a 470 NE designed with a 480 gr bullet but rather a 500 gr bullet @ 2150 fps for 5140 ft lbs at only 39160 Psi, which the 458 WM cannot do.....quite simple really...

 

[Nhoro]

I'm not going to get into the .458WM debate as I've done all this before in the past and I'm sick to death of it...

If people want to NOT use it - fine.
If people like myself who do like it want to use it - that's fine too.

But I do take exception when I hear that it can't make factory specs... coz I've done it.
And I'm not a professional hunter/ handloader - I'm a nurse on a surgical ward.

This has been my experience YMMV

Russ

I wish I had your self control. I am obviously more confrontational.And I cant let fake facts and bullying slide- Use the calibre or don't but don't try and browbeat everyone. Most people on the forum are quite positive and there is generally a lot of knowledge and helpfulness on the forum.

I am impressed with the 550 gr velocities. Only 50 fps less than Norma Lott ammo. The guy I reload with was working up a load for a Lott and he didn't get much more than 2100 fps with those same bullets and Vihtavuori N550. That is also a very temperature stable powder and he says the recoil is slower and seems more manageable than some of the faster S321 type powders.

 

[Nhoro]

I guess nobody has proper chrono data cause not enough use the 458WM.

I did not run any computer simulations......Load data was done by Koos Badenhorst(Designer of the 458 Express) and Gary Bauer and have nothing to do with Peregrine bullets.......the load I gave was for a conventional soft nose bullet and the pressure is at 58079 Psi would be interesting to see where the pressure is with 74gr and using the 500 grain mono metal bullet....mmm max or over max recommended....unfortunately I cannot run such data to get to the result.

I never jumped on anybody who wants to or uses a 458 WM I have just stated in my opinion there are better choices in 458 caliber.
Yes I don't wanna use it and I do not recommend its use on DG in Africa especially elephant. That is my opinion and my choice which I am entitled to.
You or anybody else wanna use it on DG or as a backup rifle on elephant hell go ahead.

Stop getting so upset about opinions.

It was designed to do 2150 with a 510gr bullet which it cannot.

It was not designed to do 2140 at 18 degrees C(hell does it ever go that low in the valley?) with a 480 gr bullet, neither was a 470 NE designed with a 480 gr bullet but rather a 500 gr bullet @ 2150 fps for 5140 ft lbs at only 39160 Psi, which the 458 WM cannot do.....quite simple really...

Russ has just given you a handload that does 2220 fps with a 500 gr bullet. Several other posters on my thread have also published chrono data proving 500 gr bullets can match or exceed 2150 fps. You can choose to disbelieve those people but the win mag do it...... quite simple really...

 

[IvW]

Russ has just given you a handload that does 2220 fps with a 500 gr bullet. Several other posters on my thread have also published chrono data proving 500 gr bullets can match or exceed 2150 fps. You can choose to disbelieve those people but the win mag do it...... quite simple really...

And this powder is freely availible in South Africa and xyz loads factory ammo with it? No it is not.....

only available in Aus.... so it is a mute point for anybody except for Australians never mind how good the ADI powder is and performs it is of no use to us....Lucky Aussies

We at ADI World Class Powders take supply into the local market as our number one priority and never ship propellant offshore to the detriment of Australian reloaders needs.

 

[Timbo]

And this powder is freely availible in South Africa and xyz loads factory ammo with it? No it is not.....

only available in Aus.... so it is a mute point for anybody except for Australians never mind how good the ADI powder is and performs it is of no use to us....Lucky Aussies

We at ADI World Class Powders take supply into the local market as our number one priority and never ship propellant offshore to the detriment of Australian reloaders needs.

So if you acknowledge that ADI powders achieve the specs required, and are therefore a superior powder, then maybe the SA companies need to do something about that and improve their (inferior) products? Moot point or not, with intelligent reloading and from the data others have provided, ADI Powders seem to come up to the mark. QED. So if ADI can do it, there's no reason why another company can as well - all they need is a push from their customers in SA. Also @Nhoro has also achieved respectable results with the 450gr bullet.

Personally, Woodleigh's 500gr projectiles have proven very effective in my experience, yet others with more experience than me, state the Woodleigh 480gr bullet gives the best performance.

But, since rectifying the issue of clumping powder (of 50yrs ago), the 458WM has proved itself capable - and moreso with today's better powders and bullet options.

 

[bruce moulds]

hodgdon relabel most of the adi line of powders.
the south african powders are reputed to be burn dirtier and be inferior in other ways.
the world fclass championships are coming up in south africa, and many people are pondering how to supply their ammunition there, as all their loads are with non sth african powders.
bruce.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Over the last 4 days I've been catching up on my reloading.

Tuesday, 14 July, I went to the range to chronograph some of my loads.

458 WM load:
Primer: CCI #200 Large Rifle
Powder: Hodgdon H335 71.0 +/-.2 grains
Bullet: Hornady 500 grain DGX

Temp: 78°F Sunny
Wind: 3 mph North
Shot string:
1. Error
2. 1983
3. 2014
4. Error
5. 1991
6. 1989
7. 1993

On another post on the 458WM I posted a thread on Nosler factory 500 gr solids and softs, and also posted reload results vs factory load data fps/velocity listed in the respective reloading manuals.

According to the Hornady reloading manual:
71.9 grains of H335, 500 gr bullet, has a velocity of 2050fps

67.5 grains of H335, 500 gr bullet, has a velocity of 1950 fps (minimum load)

69.7 grains of H335, 500gr bullet, has a velocity of 2000 fps

76.3 grains of H335, 500 gr bullet, has a velocity of 2150 fps (maximum load)

With a 1993.6 fps average velocity, that equates to 4413.6 (rounded up) ft lbs, if I did my math right. That is (I'll need to recheck this), about 3220 ft lbs at 50 yes and 2610 ft lbs at 100 yds.

I like and plan to hunt DG with my 458WM, perhaps not lion and elephant as they are not on my list of game I want to hunt.

 

[shark_za]

hodgdon relabel most of the adi line of powders.
the south african powders are reputed to be burn dirtier and be inferior in other ways.
the world fclass championships are coming up in south africa, and many people are pondering how to supply their ammunition there, as all their loads are with non sth african powders.
bruce.

There were issues at the Somchem factories and we have not been able to get SA made powders for quite some time already.
I use Norma MRP for most of my loading, and will use Vihtavuori N150 for the 9.3x62.
Nearly all other powders are available here, apart from the Aussie stuff.

Alliant
Hodgdon
IMR
Norma
Vihtavuori

On this subject I am not particularly knowledgeable but only see issue being raised when shooting Elephant. And the guys who do that regularly have all converted their CZ's to Lott or 3inch.
("I have taken 6 DG" could be done with a 9.3x62 if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats.) This is the only time the .458 has been questioned, for everything else there is no issue if it hits at 1600fps or 2100fps.

 

[Nhoro]

And this powder is freely availible in South Africa and xyz loads factory ammo with it? No it is not.....

only available in Aus.... so it is a mute point for anybody except for Australians never mind how good the ADI powder is and performs it is of no use to us....Lucky Aussies

We at ADI World Class Powders take supply into the local market as our number one priority and never ship propellant offshore to the detriment of Australian reloaders needs.

So now the 458 winmag doesn’t work because you are South African? USA sell powders that make

So if you acknowledge that ADI powders achieve the specs required, and are therefore a superior powder, then maybe the SA companies need to do something about that and improve their (inferior) products? Moot point or not, with intelligent reloading and from the data others have provided, ADI Powders seem to come up to the mark. QED. So if ADI can do it, there's no reason why another company can as well - all they need is a push from their customers in SA. Also @Nhoro has also achieved respectable results with the 450gr bullet.

Personally, Woodleigh's 500gr projectiles have proven very effective in my experience, yet others with more experience than me, state the Woodleigh 480gr bullet gives the best performance.

But, since rectifying the issue of clumping powder (of 50yrs ago), the 458WM has proved itself capable - and moreso with today's better powders and bullet options.

My 450 gr load is with Vihtavuaori imported from South Africa where there is an agent. The 480 gr load at 2140 fps is a copper monolithic and so puts pressure on case capacity- that I have loads for S 321 and Vihtavuori powder. Dont recall which load I shot over the chrono. Vihtavuaori is a better powder-more temperature stable and consistent.

 

[Nhoro]

hodgdon relabel most of the adi line of powders.
the south african powders are reputed to be burn dirtier and be inferior in other ways.
the world fclass championships are coming up in south africa, and many people are pondering how to supply their ammunition there, as all their loads are with non sth african powders.
bruce.

They just need to Google the Vihtavuaori agent in SA. I am not a benchrester but I understand a lot of them use Vihta ?

 

[Nhoro]

I had a good laugh yesterday- I have ordered brass and bullets from SA. So the runner I am using to bring the stuff up whatsapps me from Joburg. The stuff has been delivered to him and he needs invoices to send them. So I send invoices at about 10 am monday. Tuesday morning I get a call, where would you like your package delivered- and I had it in my hands by 12. So that was around 24 hrs from Joburg to Harare- even airfreight takes longer !

 

[bruce moulds]

There were issues at the Somchem factories and we have not been able to get SA made powders for quite some time already.
I use Norma MRP for most of my loading, and will use Vihtavuori N150 for the 9.3x62.
Nearly all other powders are available here, apart from the Aussie stuff.

Alliant
Hodgdon
IMR
Norma
Vihtavuori

On this subject I am not particularly knowledgeable but only see issue being raised when shooting Elephant. And the guys who do that regularly have all converted their CZ's to Lott or 3inch.
("I have taken 6 DG" could be done with a 9.3x62 if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats.) This is the only time the .458 has been questioned, for everything else there is no issue if it hits at 1600fps or 2100fps.

h4198, benchmark, varget, h4350, h4831, h1000, retumbo, are among the adi powders rebadged by hodgdon.
adi is now all we can get in aust.
bruce.

 

[Major Khan]

Here is a loading which my dearly deceased friend , the late Tobin Stakkatz used to prefer ... In his .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle , @Doug Hamilton .

Bullet = 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid
Propellant Powder = 69.9 grains of Accurate 2230
Cartridge Casing = Remington Peters

When fired from a 25 inch barrel ( Like those found on the pre 64 Winchester Model 70 “ African “ rifles ) , FRESHLY loaded cartridges ( Kept in storage for less than a year ) were capable of achieving a velocity of 2128 feet per second . But the propellant powder had to be slightly compressed .

If you are intent on hand loading cartridges with an even higher velocity , which possess a longer shelf life ... Then , you will do wise to use 480 grain Woodleigh “ Full Metal Jacket “ or Hornady “ Dangerous Game Solid “ bullets . They will give you an increased case capacity . A reduction of 20 grains in bullet weight shall not noticeably compromise sectional density , bad enough for the operator to be disappointed .

All the best .

 

[Timbo]

("I have taken 6 DG" could be done with a 9.3x62 if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats.) This is the only time the .458 has been questioned, for everything else there is no issue if it hits at 1600fps or 2100fps.

Yes, I've also taken a cape buff with a 9.3x62, but got some flak for doing so by a few who said I was undergunned. But on that particular occasion I had no option as we couldn't source any ammo for my 458WM (both my 458 and 9.3 reloads being confiscated at the point of boarding my flight at home, by a barstard of an airport manager!!). On arrival, we only managed to find some 9.3x62 and that was it!! However my PH, and all those I met, said the 9.3x62 was a great client calibre for buff - and I was glad my PH was ready to back me with his Lott if needed. But - and I'm sure you'll agree - the 9.3x62 is NOT considered either as a charge-stopper, or a sufficient calibre to use in a tight situation.

Btw, just to be clear my 6 other African DG (including a bracee of hippo) have all been taken with my 458WM.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Here is a loading which my dearly deceased friend , the late Tobin Stakkatz used to prefer ... In his .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle , @Doug Hamilton .

Bullet = 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid
Propellant Powder = 69.9 grains of Accurate 2230
Cartridge Casing = Remington Peters

When fired from a 25 inch barrel ( Like those found on the pre 64 Winchester Model 70 “ African “ rifles ) , FRESHLY loaded cartridges ( Kept in storage for less than a year ) were capable of achieving a velocity of 2128 feet per second . But the propellant powder had to be slightly compressed .

If you are intent on hand loading cartridges with an even higher velocity , which possess a longer shelf life ... Then , you will do wise to use 480 grain Woodleigh “ Full Metal Jacket “ or Hornady “ Dangerous Game Solid “ bullets . They will give you an increased case capacity . A reduction of 20 grains in bullet weight shall not noticeably compromise sectional density , bad enough for the operator to be disappointed .

All the best .

Thank you, Major!

 

[Hyde Hunter]

for what it is worth my load is 78 gr AA2230, Federal 215 primer, Hornady case, Barnes 450 TSX Bullet velocity is 2310 at 15 feet, 5333lbs energy,col is 3.678 50 yard group is 1/2". this is from a cz550 and shows no pressure or extraction issues and the TSX bullet feeds very nicely. thanks Jim

 

[Ray B]

I wish I had your self control. I am obviously more confrontational.

The problem with being confrontational is that in addition to being counter-productive, it may result in others using the Ignore button.

 

[IvW]

for what it is worth my load is 78 gr AA2230, Federal 215 primer, Hornady case, Barnes 450 TSX Bullet velocity is 2310 at 15 feet, 5333lbs energy,col is 3.678 50 yard group is 1/2". this is from a cz550 and shows no pressure or extraction issues and the TSX bullet feeds very nicely. thanks Jim

450 gr from 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby can achieve that.
500 gr from 458 Lott can exceed that so can the 450 Rigby.

450 gr bullets are not the realm of the 458 bolt action calibers...

 

[Badboymelvin]

On this subject I am not particularly knowledgeable but only see issue being raised when shooting Elephant. And the guys who do that regularly have all converted their CZ's to Lott or 3inch.
("I have taken 6 DG" could be done with a 9.3x62 if all you are shooting is Buffalo and Cats.) This is the only time the .458 has been questioned, for everything else there is no issue if it hits at 1600fps or 2100fps.

I have never claimed to be an expert - but I do own a .458 (have owned 5) a chronograph, various powders and various projectiles. I always post my results in case they can be helpful for another person.

I have never claimed to be an expert - but I do ask a lot of questions.
If I haven't done something but want to know about it I'll flick a PM and ask. My experience has been that people are only to happy to answer your queries...
One thing I ask a lot of questions about is the .458's effectiveness on DG / Elephant as I have a genuine interest on that topic.

On another forum there was a regular contributor who's passion was / is shooting elephant.
His firearm of choice was a double rifle in .458WM.
He originally was going to have this rifle re-chambered to a nitro caliber, but after trying the .458 he found it done all he wanted so left it.
He shot several elephant with the 500gn Woodleigh solid at 2050fps and he said it was adequate. Not outstanding, but adequate.
He then shot several more with the 500gn Woodleigh solid at 2140fps and said it was definitely better. A definite step up.
He then used the 450gn NorthFork at around 2200-2250fps and he said penetration was absolutely phenomenal.
All his elephant hunts were documented with pictures, detailed hunt reports and autopsies so what is written here is the truth.
I found this information very useful.


On Australia's biggest hunting / shooting forum I asked a question about the 550gn Woodleigh.
A very experienced PH (who I won't name - but is a member here so hopefully he will chime in) answered, and I quote:

"I have been shooting with a .458Win at Dangerous Game now for about 35 years. I always used the standard 500gr solids/softs. About 30 years ago I started reloading for all my guns as buying ammo bankrupted me as I shoot/hunt for a living.
I tried some custom 550gr heads and also 450gr heads on animals like elephant, buffalo and hippo. I honestly can not tell the difference on any animal's reaction between being hit with a 550gr, 500gr or the 450gr. (All other factors being equal) like the same type of head etc.

I am currently using 450gr heads at 2200fps and they all go straight through elephant, buffalo and hippo. I personally do not see the use to load heavier heads as the ones I use get full penetration anyhow. It is much easier on the shoulder, I get enough speed and they do the job. Any other "paper and math" results are pure academic and as mentioned, I can not see the difference in any animals reaction when it takes the shot."

So it seems that you don't necessarily need that magic 2150fps with the 500gn bullet for it to be effective on DG - even elephant.
It also seems that you don't need a 550gn - or even 500gn bullet in the .458 for it to be effective on elephant.
In fact, I cant think of a single circumstance where someone who was using 500's and then went down to 450's went back to 500's...

No-one's right or wrong.
People just have personal experiences that we can all learn from.
As for me, I'll keep asking questions from people that have been there and done that - and I'll keep experimenting for myself. But I can honestly say, hand-on-heart, that I have never had a problem loading the .458.
Always got the desired velocity and desired accuracy.
If I didn't, I'd change for something else. Simple.