Loading data for the .450 Black Powder Express

[miroflex]

Hi all,

Has any member loaded the .450 3 1/4" Black Powder Express cartridge and is loading data available? From where can one buy the equipment and components? Are bullet moulds available for casting bullets? If not, is there any method of having a mould made?

Regards.

 

[adam12]

.450 BPE loads

Hello, New member here. First of all, do yourself a HUGE favor and buy this book: SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE by Graeme Wright. Buy the THIRD EDITION. that's important as it's crammed with so much more information than his earlier editions.

I've got an Alex Henry .450 3 1/4". Back action, hammers and a Jones Under lever I've found a great load for it, albeit a Nitro-for-Black one. It loves 48 grs H1498 and a Hornady 300 gr soft point. I know what you're thinking: the jacketed bullet will eat up the bores but I've found it just isn't so. That said, I still want to try cast bullets once I get a mould.

A BP load for all these BPE's is of course the Holy Grail, but I've found it frustrating to work up a really good load. Which doesn't mean I've given up on it, it just means I have to dedicate some serious time. I've got a few .500 BPE's as well.

Good luck with yours, and if you do find a good BP load Please share! By the way, could you share some details on your .450?

 

[Kbhallmark]

Adam12 were you using any kind of filler over the powder charge? My understanding is its not necessary with 4198.

Thanks,

 

[Woodcarver]

11 year old thread, and Adam12 hasn't logged in since 2015.

Best option would be to start a new thread with your question.

Adam12 were you using any kind of filler over the powder charge? My understanding is its not necessary with 4198.

Thanks,

 

[Huvius]

Adam12 has a good smokeless load for the 450.
When using 4198, I use 1/2” backer rod which takes up the space. You’ll definitely want to use a filler with the 450 3-1/4” and smokeless.
Just about all of the original 450BPE loads took 120grs of Curtis & Harvey’s No.6 powder regardless of the bullet weight.
It is sad that the BP of the era was more energetic than that made today so starting at 120grs of any good quality black powder will be a good starting point.
There are numerous .458” molds available and if your chamber is tight, as many 450BPE rifles were designed to use a .450” projectile, you can simply use a Lee push through sizer of .450” if needed. Usually, with a cast bullet and black, you just use a bullet that fits your fired cases without the need to neck size often able to seat the bullet without the use of any loading dies pushing the bullet home over the powder and whatever wad you use.
Tell us about your rifle!


Ah…. An old thread.
Worth a conversation though!

 

[Kbhallmark]

Well, it’s not a rifle yet. I have a barreled action put together by Steve Bertram on a Steve Earle Wesson action. Modeled after an Alex Henry single shot. I just got a stock blank duplicated so one of these days I’ll have a rifle. I was under the impression that all smokeless powder loads in the old NE cases needed a backer. I was recently told that h4198 did not but was looking for first hand experience.

Thanks for the information.

Kevin

 

[lkydvl]

I am using .458 390 gr cast bullets over 55 grains of 4895 with a puff of dacron filler. It took me a while to fund that load. Shooting a Webley & Scott 450 BPE with nitro barrels. Its the first load I've found that regulates. 50 yds the bullets are side by side within 1/2 inch. Were almost right on with the sights as well, about 1 inch right. Easily corrected with a slight nudge of the rear sight.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

I always used 4198, either brand, .40 X original BP load = starting grains, then 'ease' up to regulate to sights. Always used dacron, I pull it from old pillows. Can't remember how many grains dacron. Don't cram it down into a brick, just soft and comfy like your pillow, but firm enough at the same time to be supportive. It's only there to take up room and keep the powder down. I've used this in everything from the .450, to the .450 no.2 Nitro (which takes an awful amount and ends up as fluffy snowball on the ground....literally in front of your elephant if that's the case), all the way to the .600
Since I had forgotten the grain-age of dacron in the .450, I just checked "Shooting the British Double Rifle", (second edition) and Ross Seyfried used up to 15 grains in the .450
It's fun weighing the little snowballs on the scale....pillow stuffing is my go-to stuff....
p.s.----remember, NO space between it and the bullet base....just takes up room, remember pillow-like. With other calibers, one can experiment on how many grains by feel and firmness.
....think I'll go rest on my pillow now....lol

 

[Nick1982]

Adam12 has a good smokeless load for the 450.
When using 4198, I use 1/2” backer rod which takes up the space. You’ll definitely want to use a filler with the 450 3-1/4” and smokeless.
Just about all of the original 450BPE loads took 120grs of Curtis & Harvey’s No.6 powder regardless of the bullet weight.
It is sad that the BP of the era was more energetic than that made today so starting at 120grs of any good quality black powder will be a good starting point.
There are numerous .458” molds available and if your chamber is tight, as many 450BPE rifles were designed to use a .450” projectile, you can simply use a Lee push through sizer of .450” if needed. Usually, with a cast bullet and black, you just use a bullet that fits your fired cases without the need to neck size often able to seat the bullet without the use of any loading dies pushing the bullet home over the powder and whatever wad you use.
Tell us about your rifle!


Ah…. An old thread.
Worth a conversation though!

Hallo,

If i understand it correctly you can't shoot .458 or .459 lead projectiles true a old rifle?

Greetings Nick

 

[Huvius]

Hallo,

If i understand it correctly you can't shoot .458 or .459 lead projectiles true a old rifle?

Greetings Nick

Yes, you can as long as the fired case will accept a bullet that size.
Ideally, your cast bullet should be .001-.002" larger than groove but some old rifles are chambered to accept a bullet that is bore dia. which is .450" in this case.
You'll just need to take some measurements of your particular rifle to really dial in what would work best.

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, you can as long as the fired case will accept a bullet that size.
Ideally, your cast bullet should be .001-.002" larger than groove but some old rifles are chambered to accept a bullet that is bore dia. which is .450" in this case.
You'll just need to take some measurements of your particular rifle to really dial in what would work best.

Yes! This is the part where many loaders/shooters stop, not wishing to go down the rabbit hole. But it is the most important detail for loading accurate ammo for these old guns. If the neck chamber is too small, you are kind of stuck. But… If you can chamber a round with a cast bullet of even groove diameter, you can realize great potential in loading cast bullets. If the bore is decent and the barrel straight, I can almost guarantee these rifles can be loaded to shoot with surprising accuracy. But… the devil is in the details

One of the richest groups I ever shot out of one of these was with an M1874 C Sharps in 45-110. Almost unmeasurable 5 shot group at 50 yards- something less that .1”

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

The comment about the chamber neck size not always accepting cast projectiles is why I breach seat the cast projectiles in my Remington rolling block, and I can get a lot more black powder in the case. Makes for a very accurate rifle if I do my bit
Gumpy

 

[Nick1982]

I want to use this rifle.
Greetings Nick

 

[Nick1982]

2 cast bullets lightly tapped in rear from breach front from muzzle. (300 grains)

 

[fourfive8]

“Lightly tapped in rear from breech front from muzzle”

^^Doesn’t make any sense… sorry.

If you’re asking about correct size to shoot? Then they look ok. To slug bore … You can take a near pure lead round ball or slug of any kind that is slightly oversized and drive it through a well lubed bore with a brass rod or one piece steel rod with a flat brass jag so the end of the steel rod doesn’t touch the bore. I do it for all my BPCR guns to get bore and groove diameter. Best size to shoot is from groove from up to maybe groove diameter plus .002”, depending on what chambers easy. Most old BPCR guns have fairly large throats and chamber dimensions.

Breech seating will work for target shooting at the range but kind of unhandy to hunt with. You end up will a single shot x 2 that is really slow to load next two.

 

[Huvius]

Best size to shoot is from groove from up to maybe groove diameter plus .002”, depending on what chambers easy.

^^THIS^^
I don’t even slug bores any more.
I use pin gauges to find the bore diameter and expect the groove to be .008” larger which is more or less standard.
This also lets you know if your rifle has a tapered bore. You can see that a slug from breech to muzzle will only tell you the smallest diameter of the entire barrel, not necessarily where (unless you can feel it). This can fool you into thinking you need a smaller bullet than is correct.
In this case,
I say shoot the 300gr bullets you have with 100-120grs of good black powder and a card wad or greased felt wad under the bullet if you can fit one in.
Establish a baseline first in regard to accuracy, fouling, leading (if any), fired case dimensions etc. and THEN think about what to do next.
Don’t get too fixated on anything yet - you haven’t even fired it after all!

 

[fourfive8]

You can usually feel changes in diameter as resistance changes as the slug goes through. Best scenario is very, very slight tightening toward muzzle.

Unless restricted for competition or for 100% authenticity I prefer gas checked designs, I usually order an iron, single mold based on best estimated diameter and a weight for best chance for accuracy in bore’s twist. I like conventional gas checked, grease groove designs with small to midsized meplat and relatively short nose. For these modest loads, a gas checked bullet of fairly soft alloy 10-12 BHN works really well, IMO.

Accurate Molds has an extensive online catalog with single iron mold running about 160.00. Popping on gas check and pan lubing bullets is easy. I use SPG bullet lube for most of my cast loads, either BP or smokeless,

Here’s pic of conventional style I like. From Accurate Molds catalog.

 

[fourfive8]

If the barrels are straight and bores in good condition, these BPCR rifles can have exceptional accuracy. Here’s a 5 shot, 50 yard group shot with my 45-110 and 440gr bullet…. similar loads and bullets described above. < .1”.

almost unmeasurable

 

[fourfive8]

The closest to “breech seating” using a complete cartridge I can think of is where, in some 22 rf rifles, the drive band of the bullet of a chambered cartridge actually breech seats itself into the throat and lands of the bore upon chambering. The throat dimension in those rifles are held to tight tolerances and the throat lengths are short which creates a breech searing situation when the cartridge is chambered.

My Win M 52 22 rf bolt gun has a target or match chamber/throat. If you chamber a cartridge and extract it without firing, you can see land engraving into the bullet’s drive band and a slight smudge mark on the drive band left by the near zero tolerance of the throat. The theory is this allows for greatest potential accuracy. That theory seems to hold true for these target rifles or rifles with such a throat/chamber.

To my knowledge, 22 rimfire rifles set up this way are about the only types that don’t require breech seating in two separate operations.... normally by first seating a bullet into the throat/lands, then chambering what amounts to a charged blank case with a wad at the case's mouth up to the base of the seated bullet.

Pic of Eley 22 rf match cartridges.

Top cartridge was chambered and extracted from my Win M 52. Shows throat smudge (if held in oblique light) and clear land engraving.

Bottom cartridge not chambered.

 

[Huvius]

I think that some heeled bullet cartridges act similarly.
I have a 310 Cadet Martini that will engrave the rifling a bit but not to the extent that is shown above.