Lion - stalk vs. bait

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil

To me, behaving properly is things like only hunting wild animals & not captive bred etc. Also to think twice before posting things like short clips of just kill shots on you tube because most non hunters simply fail to understand what they're about & by misunderstanding, become anti hunters by default.

Sher Jung wrote;

"The jungle is the place to test one's mettle and one's skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it".

And that to me is the perfect summary of what true hunting should be.

I've been in the same position with house sales so you have my sympathy........ in my case, I didn't take them down.

Your response is appreciated, and I commend you for keeping this a polite discussion. While I basically agree with you, who is to say we're right and someone else is wrong in the manner in which they choose to hunt?

A few examples from my own experiences. At one time, I really didn't care how I might go elk hunting. However a few years ago while sitting on a hill one cold November morning I told my hunting buddy I was done with rifle hunting for elk. I was going bowhunting or I wasn't going. And for the last several years this has been the case. I so much more enjoy elk hunting in September with a bow when the bulls are bugling, I can't really imagine anymore doing it differently. But who the hell am I to tell someone else who sees things differently that they're not on a "real" elk hunt when they gladly hunt elk with a rifle?

A totally different scenario.....trout fishing. I was fortunate enough at one time to live in some of the greatest density of world class trout fishing there is in this world. I took up fly fishing. For me, there is no greater satisfaction fishing for trout then to properly present a dry fly that I've designed and tied myself to a very wary, heavy Rainbow in slow clear water and fool that old fish into rising and gulping in that fly. To throw a bobbered hook with a worm on it does absolutely nothing for me. But once again, who the hell am I to tell someone who isn't fishing the way I would that they're not properly fishing?

So it goes with lion hunting for me. I know there's a huge difference between hunting a lion completely on his terms versus hunting a raised lion. In this country as someone else pointed out, there are folks who go out onto really small properties and shoot farm raised huge antlered deer and then go bragging about it. Do I admire their "hard" earned deer? Nope, but then again I frankly don't care. If a person is proud of any one particular head whether it was taken on a fenced property or not, it makes no difference to me. I'm really only concerned with what I've accomplished and if I feel good about it or not.

So if a person kills a lion that was raised and they stalked it and got in that lion's danger zone and they're good with it, what does my opinion matter? On the flip side, if a person kills a lion in Zimbabwe by using that lion's hunger against it by putting out a bait and sitting in a blind and they're good with it, again what does my opinion matter?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Phil and Bill,
My sincerest, thank you. That is exactly the point that I was trying to make, but that always seem to be so difficult from a keyboard, as you get sidetracked on different topics. We as hunters need more open-minded chaps like you to win this battle.
Gentleman, I salute you.

 

[shakari]

Phil

You raise some good points.

For me, enough is when hunting stops being hunting for the thrill of hunting as per Sher Jung's description and becomes simply shooting to furnish a trophy room. To me, a captive bred and newly released lion (whether drugged or not) can never be a fair chase hunt and will always be wrong........ and if something is wrong, it ain't right and it never will be.

Like you, I've always been a very keen picker upper of trash and would always give my staff and sometimes even clients, merry hell whenever I caught them leaving anything in the bush. Staff would even get an earful of turbo tongueing if they so much as drove or walked past an empty wrapper or can without picking it up. LOL!

I said earlier that I hoped sport trophy hunting will continue for the next generation to enjoy but I have my doubts if that'll be the case........ One thing I am sure of is that if it doesn't, no one will be able to lay the blame for that at my door and I'm proud of that simple fact...... And I'm sure that Sher Jung would say the same if he were alive today.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Hi guys been away for some time..... Would like to ask one question though.... where does this leave kudu, eland, blesbok, nyala, wildebeest, Oryx, Buffalo and all other species hunted on fenced ranches in South Africa... or would we consider a 1500 ha game ranch to be less canned than a 2000ha lion hunting ranch if you will.

Or would the emotion surrounding lion hunting be the largest contributor?

My best always.

 

[shakari]

Hi guys been away for some time..... Would like to ask one question though.... where does this leave kudu, eland, blesbok, nyala, wildebeest, Oryx, Buffalo and all other species hunted on fenced ranches in South Africa... or would we consider a 1500 ha game ranch to be less canned than a 2000ha lion hunting ranch if you will.

Or would the emotion surrounding lion hunting be the largest contributor?

My best always.

Jaco

As I see it, that's comparing apples to oranges. Plains game species are mostly born & spend their lives in the area & therefore know the terrain & escape routes etc intimately. Most are herd animals & will follow the herd to avoid danger. Sure, occasional translocations take place but as we both know, an ethical landowner will usually ensure newly translocated animals are not hunted for a reasonable amount of time.

Captive bred lions on the other hand (as we both also know) are released & shot within a few hours or at most days & therefore don't know the terrain & escape routes etc.

That's a massive difference between the two issues.

To me, it's not much about the size of the area & a LOT about the time between when the animal is released into it & then subsequently shot & I've (twice) previously explained why these animals are shot so quickly after release.

I appreciate you already know that last point but I mention it again for those who might not know.

I'm not against hunting in (large) fenced areas per se but am very against shooting captive bred lions in fenced/canned environments.

I believe people should only hunt wild lions (correctly) & if they can't afford to do that, then they should suck it up, because that's life.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

shakari I do understand your point as far as escape routes and such but do believe that we are making a major assumption when it comes to landowners on properties providing ample time for game to adjust....... and become familiar with the terrain. in this case there is no differentiation in my mind, as we all know the sausage machine operators who conduct business.

I still believe the emotion surrounding the subject is a large if not the largest contributing factor... and even if NAT CON would change legislation to 6 months (release) which would then be more than most exported plains game species that the issue will still not be resolved.

Some outfitters are exporting in excess of 2000 head of plains game a season, I fail to see how these were all ethically harvested or hunted and therefore raised the point above.... I think that we are assuming a little to much when it comes to the pg side of things, and therefore do not believe that the two can be completely separated.

My best always

 

[shakari]

Mate,

It's two completely separate & different issues & we're talking lions here not PG so to try to bring the two issues together is wrong which is why the lion breeders tried to do that very thing in an attempt to cloud the lion issue.

AFAIC, Van Schalkwyk had the chance to put the canned lion issue to bed some years ago & the spineless arse chickened out due to threat of prosecution. I have about as much respect for him as I have for that moron Malema.

But that also is an entirely different issue.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

separating the two just seems to convenient SHAKARI and easy as it boils down to exactly the same thing no different, emotion surrounding a lion is far greater than lion though......

My best always

 

[shakari]

Jaco

I fail to see how you can think the two are the same in any way because they're very obviously totally different.

 

[shakari]

Jaco

If you think they are the same, perhaps you can elaborate on that & tell us in what way(s) they are?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Shakari I believe that I have done so, but will do it again,

As mentioned earlier I believe we are assuming way to much with regards to plains game and dangerous game hunting, as many outfitters buy a trophy sized PG or DG Specie ie. Buff or Sable or impala, or kudu and so on any given Saturday... during the hunting season, transports it to his or her hunting property on the very same day for that species to be harvested the following morning or day or two after the day of purchase....... the same IMO.... this happens allot more than what you and I think... I can guarantee this... with this in mind what is so different?

If Nat Con was to adjust legislation in SA, to 6 months or a year ranch roaming minimum... would it still be less ethical than buying an impala on an auction and hunting it a week later and would the large public outcry die down?

I believe that the separation of the two is a way to convenient route to follow, as mentioned in my various replies above.. you also need to keep in mind that I prefer and enjoy hunting wild lion but there are serious question marks with regards to the sustainability thereof.

I am merely trying to indicate the blatantly obvious similarities between the two types of hunts, pg and lion in SA, and truly believe and know that the very large response and outcry with regards to lion hunting both wild and ranch lion is an emotionally motivated outcry....

I am also very much aware that the two types of lion hunting are by no means the same and have nothing to do with each other..... As you are also fully aware the entire hunting industry and any other type of business works on supply and demand, there is a demand for wild lion safaris and an even greater demand for ranch lion hunts or (shoots) if you will......

Once again I can only raise my opinion, I fully understand and agree with the ethics or lack of it as many feel... in ranch lion hunting, but on the flip side the ethics involved in a drop and shoot impala, would you say it should be a lesser ethic or concern?

Or is ones hunting ethic one which every single hunter decides for himself or is forced into by physical ability or dictated by industry..... When we consider the latter an entire world of new questions and arguments comes to rise........

As far as ethics we know that ranch lion hunting is widely regarded by certain individuals as unethical but we also do know that it has 0 effect on wild lion populations.... would we perhaps be confronted with the very fact that lion hunting, ranch or true wilderness hunts as a whole is about to be something of the past......

I believe so very sad indeed.

My best always

 

[shakari]

Jaco

Is now a good time to point out that when the spineless moron Minister Van Schalkwyk introduced the Dangerous animals Act or whatever it was called a few years ago, (as I mentioned earlier) he removed lion from the list of dangerous animals at the very last minute due to threat of prosecution from the lion breeder's assoc......... As you may recall, the act required a wilding period of several months (in the case of lion, it was going to be 6 months).

However, he left the rest on said list and all require a considerable wilding period. Lion, not being on that list do not require any wilding period at all and that is a VERY major difference.

I thought you'd have known that!

As you say, the shooting of captive bred lions doesn't have any effect whatsoever on the wild lion population but (IMO) it has a massive effect on the non hunting general public around the world and this can be seen by the number of misinformed comments being made about the Backman fiasco..... and I'm utterly convinced that one day, this immoral industry and those that take part in it (whether client, PH or outfitter) will be one of the major reasons that true, African sport trophy hunting will be banned.

I've no idea if it'll happen in my lifetime but I doubt very much indeed if future generations will be able to enjoy what I and many others have.

And I think that's a bloody shame.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I am unaware of any wilding period for Buffalo, kudu, Impala, Waterbuck, I am also unaware of it being enforced, apart from on lion however short the period maybe....

Logically there is no difference between dropping and shooting a lion or a kudu, sorry I must be honest I am probably missing the point...

Emotion = response to lion fact..... I also believe that the anti hunters could not give two thoughts on whether it is a lion hunted on a reserve such as Timbavati (simple example) or pilanesberg, Or whether it was hunted on a 6 million acre free ROAMING concession...

I believe that SA hunting is under fire from various hunting and non hunting fraternities, without the greater ripple effect being taken into consideration.

This is and always will be an issue.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Or is ones hunting ethic one which every single hunter decides for himself or is forced into by physical ability or dictated by industry..... When we consider the latter an entire world of new questions and arguments comes to rise........

Yip. Spot on.

 

[peras]

Yip. Spot on.

+1 I agree

 

[enysse]

Emotion = response to lion fact..... I also believe that the anti hunters could not give two thoughts on whether it is a lion hunted on a reserve such as Timbavati (simple example) or pilanesberg, Or whether it was hunted on a 6 million acre free ROAMING concession...

I think some people are missing the point. The antis don't think anything should be hunted....nothing. They don't care about methods of hunting or conservation, it's a foreign concept to them. The media has done a excellent job along with whole lot of people that have no idea what living in the country is like if they don't see it on TV or in a movie into brainwashing people that animals have human qualities. Animals are equal with the human race. And if animals and humans are equal, they should all live happy long lives in peace and harmony.

 

[shakari]

Sorry for the delay chaps. I had to go out and one thing led to another glass of vinho as it often does here. LOL

I agree it's utterly wrong to shoot any newly released animal but to bring other species into this debate is nothing more than an inefficient and cheap attempt to cloud the issue by arguing that because it happens with other species, it's OK to do it with lions. - We're talking lions here and nothing else so let's try to keep the debate on track and hopefully, friendly & polite.

So first let's point out that in most cases, it's contary to one act or another AND/OR extremely bad management practice to shoot any newly translocated/introduced species EXCEPT lions and the reason for that is van schalkwyk's lack of spine. (I'm actually surprised he can manage to walk upright!)

Shooting a newly released lion never was and never will be hunting and always was and always will be nothing more than indefensible collecting for no better reason than to decorate a trophy room and IMO, such behaviour will be one of the major factors in the banning of true sport trophy hunting.

As I said earlier, this deplorable practice isn't restricted to RSA (although RSA is the biggest culprit) and IMO, it should be banned throughout the continent not just in RSA.

 

[enysse]

Shooting a newly released lion never was and never will be hunting and always was and always will be nothing more than indefensible collecting for no better reason than to decorate a trophy room and IMO, such behaviour will be one of the major factors in the banning of true sport trophy hunting.

I agree, it's not sporting. If the animal has been there for a month or 2, I might have a different opinion.

 

[shakari]

I might be in favour of wilding periods if they were long enough and if they were enforced but the truth is RSA is a country that took a decade to make it's own (new) firearms act to work anywhere near efficiently, can't run it's own judiciary, can't even begin to operate an annual vehicle inspection programme & can't even manage it's own gold mines etc so there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it could monitor how long individual lions have been self sustaining.

If I had my way, I'd completely ban ALL captive lion breeding programmes completely. Finish & klaar.

I'll bet that one puts a few noses out of joint! LOL!

 

[gi jane]

I for one appreciate both sides of this debate. I am not qualified to express my opinion one way or the other, but what I do know is that I am very impressed with the intelligent and thoughtful dialogue this topic has inspired among the persons that have expressed their opinions. Jerome, kudos to you for providing this forum. Also let me remind everyone that I am an anomaly on this site with regards to my status as a liberal and semi-vegetarian. Just gotta remind you all of my background occasionally, just so there are no questions regarding my posts. I for one am silent on the topic, I just feel very fortunate to experience it first-hand. Sorry to rant, but I had to put my 2 cents in. Thanks again everyone for being so insightful and civilized.