Lion hunts in RSA

[daved]

Dave correction, NW legislation is 96 hours 4 days, I have done some research and new legislation prohibits drug and release, found that out yesterday...

Hi Jaco the PHASA an SAPA position is 7 days irrespective of local legislation. If the latter is longer like in the EC then that will obviously apply.

Many if not most lions are released drug free, you are correct. They are live caught and moved. The 7 day period was derived from the cats that are darted. 3 days affected only.

I do believe the golden days of lion hunting are over, Capstick (fraud or not) writes of shooting lions from the jeep? That's because they were plenty full. If wild lion numbers where plenty full they would have more available permits and they would be cheaper.

But they not, that's why hunts are now 14-21 days, there are less cats about. Hunting takes longer to find then.

Thanks for the clarification.
Dave

 

[daved]

No worries Steve
We need old fart Dagga boys to keep us young bucks in check.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I think a longer wilding period will have to come if the captive bred lion hunting industry wants to survive.

I think the antis get way to much ammunition against lion hunting specially and all sorts of hunting in general with how much of the captive bred lion hunt is conducted these days with only few days "wilding" period before the hunt can start.
Not only antis are against those hunts as they often are conducted now, but also many hunters.
If the majority of hunters can't stand tall and defend a hunting practice together, we will soon be in problems and not be able to do it anymore.
It is a very steep uphill battle to try to defend the practice of shooting a captive bred lion released only few days earlier.

I know some outfitters have a longer wilding period before the hunt starts, but many don't and it is very easy to paint all with the same brush.

I think that if the South African government and PHASA don't react soon and extend the wilding periods much more than now, then shakari here will get it how he wants it with the captive bred lion hunting stopped.

I don't want it stopped, but I DO want the wilding period to be much longer than it is now with 3 months minimum and 6 months would be the best.
Then even I might consider to book a captive bred lion hunt.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Hi Jaco the PHASA an SAPA position is 7 days irrespective of local legislation. If the latter is longer like in the EC then that will obviously apply.

Many if not most lions are released drug free, you are correct. They are live caught and moved. The 7 day period was derived from the cats that are darted. 3 days affected only.
Dave

100% correct.

 

[shakari]

Whilst I think a much longer wilding period (6 months or so) would be a BIG step forward, I don't think it'll ever happen simply because of the economics of what the lions would eat during that time and as the only reason most people book these shoots is because they're cheaper, the maths just won't allow it.

As to the PHASA decision to reduce the voluntary wilding period for members to conduct these shoots, I reckon it's the most shameful episode of the Association's entire history and I'm astounded it was allowed to happen. Especially as they now have a professional CEO who if she had done her job, would have seen the move coming a mile off.

The vote took place at an AGM when only about 20% of the membership was present and the proposal was changed from (I believe) 6 months to just a few days and I'll bet a pound to a pinch of the smelly brown stuff that the majority of guys who were there and voted were also members of the breeders association and/or were involved in the captive lion industry.

What should have happened was the association should have held a postal vote so that every member has the opportunity to vote - which incidentally, was how they held the vote on the moratorium on hunting leopards with hounds was done all those years ago......... I'd like to think that the members will insist on such a postal vote to amend this disgraceful situation in the near future.

 

[Big5]

This thread and the gloomy situation relative to lion hunting in general makes me realize how fortunate I've been to have hunted lion on multiple occasions. Each of the hunts was conducted in Zimbabwe in the very early 90's. At that time the cost of hunting lion was not so excessive and the opportunity for success was high.

I laugh at this today, but I can even remember being on a hunt in the Chewore safari area and declining an opportunity to shoot a lion for a measly $2,500 trophy fee. Having taken lion previously I was more interested in spending the early morning hours/early evening hours in a leopard blind and looking for dagga boys during the day. I doubt anyone would turn down a lion for a $2,500 trophy fee today, let alone out of disinterest.

But I guess times change. I never would have thought free range lion hunting would have reached the present financial pinnacle and the undeniable end that it seems to now be facing.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I would not criticize Adri, SHAKARI this proves to me that you are, should I say... More than a little out if touch with PHASA, and the industry in SA.

Could some please enlighten me as to where PHASA shortened any wilding period..... It was actually extended from what North West legislation stipulates.

Once again very easy to sit on the side line or rather different continent and criticize.... No dictionary phrases needed... No subtle hints intended either.



My best always

 

[peras]

I would not criticize Adri, SHAKARI this proves to me that you are, should I say... More than a little out if touch with PHASA, and the industry in SA.

Once again very easy to sit on the side line or rather different continent and criticize.... No dictionary phrases needed...

My best always

Agreed, Adri does an excellent job.

 

[shakari]

Big5

It's amazing how things have changed or perhaps deteriorated over the last 25 or 30 years huh? - I hardly recognise the industry as the same one I entered all those years ago. - Hard to believe there was a time when one could shoot a rhino for biltong......... but that said, I guess things were even better further back than that.

I guided a few safaris in the Karamoja region of Uganda a few years ago & called dear old Ken Stewart who had hunted there 30 years or so before......... he told me he'd taken sable by the thousand in the very area I was in but now, all the game there is very thin on the ground.

As an aside, Ken had camped on the same spot as Bell (right beside what is now the Greek River crossing) & with Ken's help, I was able to find that very location. I also reckon I found the hill that Bell had christened 'The Knob'

Ja, Portugal is wonderful & our particular area is very like parts of Africa but without the curly tops to stuff things up at every opportunity......... so an absolute paradise!

 

[shakari]

Jaco & Pieter

I'll criticise anyone I like bwanas.

She cocked up on allowing that vote to happen instead of having a postal vote - and I have no doubt, that mistake will cause trouble amongst the membership - And what's more, she'll be cocking up again if she takes up this bloody stupid idea of making PHASA the regulatory body for RSA PHs.

Tell me how any organisation can represent the best interests of their members and yet also regulate them at the same time! - The entire idea is absolutely preposterous. Especially when there are already regulatory bodies in the form of game depts already in place.

What should happen is the provincial game depts get closed down and one national body be formed to regulate all PHs in the country who incidentally, have one licence that allows them to work anywhere in the country and to one national game act.

If PHASA does become the regulatory body, the first thing that'll happen is the PHs will form an independent association to represent their interests against the regulatory body........... it's the most half arsed, rucking fidiculous idea I've ever heard of!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

None of us want Phasa to be a regulatory body, this is also not PHASA's intention.

Proxy votes are in place for member interested and not able to attend, so trying to pawn off the idea that a industry decision was made with only 20% of players present is a weak one to say the least.......

Decisions are made by members all involved and or interested, if john down the dirt road could not give two sh--s about attending how am I to believe a mail vote will be different... Optimistic to say the least.

So we need to re structure the entire department of economic development and environmental affairs by disbanding it and forming one large national regulatory body.... Now...this bloody hurts!!! but I do agree with the idea, but good luck with that! as it is a system that has been in place since I started hunting almost 16 years ago and probably was in place in your day.

That's all.

 

[shakari]

Jaco

Seems I'm more in touch with PHASA than you are because I've been having calls & emails for weeks from various members about the regulatory status and I can assure you there is a very strong desire from some in the association to take on that regulatory status.

I appreciate proxy votes are available but we all know very few people use them and many members will either have been away hunting or unable to attend because of distance or cost and the way it was done is akin to the trade union shennanigans that went on in the UK in the 70s.

The only fair way to hold such a vote on such an important matter is a postal vote where ALL members have the opportunity to vote. It's been done before and there's no reason whatsoever it couldn't have been done again...... especially when you consider the PHASA attitude in 2005 which was entirely against it.

That vote was a bloody disgrace and a blot on the reputation of the association and if the ordinary members have any sense at all, they'll call for a proper postal vote to reconsider the situation.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

There is a major difference between professional body status as viewed by govt and regulatory, I believe there is quite a misunderstanding with regards to this at this point in time, as per conversation with Adri Kitshoff.

My best always

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

There is a major difference between professional body status as viewed by govt and regulatory, I believe there is quite a misunderstanding with regards to this at this point in time, as per conversation with Adri Kitshoff.

.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Large difference between professional body status and regulatory, PHASA has no intention of the latter as they very well understand the complexities involved as they are to act in the best interest of their members...

Hunting school directors are probably driving toward this as they can then make the big bucks!

.

 

[shakari]

Jaco

Time will tell if it happens but I do know it's been proposed, do know it's received a warm welcome from some parts of PHASA and do know it's an absolutely piss poor idea.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

SHAKARI I just confirmed with Me. Kitshoff I believe that your sources are struggling to differentiate between professional body status and regulatory status....

We once proposed wearing green caps for a week but did not.

My best

 

[shakari]

SHAKARI I just confirmed with Me. Kitshoff I believe that your sources are struggling to differentiate between professional body status and regulatory status....

We once proposed wearing green caps for a week but did not.

My best

Jaco

Several different people think otherwise & have gone into detailed discussion about the implications with me about it so maybe they all have the wrong idea or maybe the idea got kicked into touch as it quite rightly should have been.

Either way, I hope you're right because it'll be a disaster for PHASA if it does ever happen.

Incidentally, I always thought rather well of Ms Kitshoff but she fell dramatically in my estimation with that wilding period thing. There's no way that vote should have been allowed to happen with such a low percentage of members in attendance & as I said, if the members have any sense, they'll call for a postal vote to readdress the situation.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Regulatory status would indeed be disastrous, very happy that PHASA have their feet firmly planted against it.

..

 

[shakari]

Now all they need to do is hold a proper, democratic postal vote on the wilding period. LOL

Regarding the vote at the AGM: How can a vote that takes place with something in the region of only 20% of the membership present be construed as anything like democratic? - (IMO) It was nothing short of a hijack!