Lion hunts in RSA

[CAustin]

Vevew has 3 posts in the past year! Think about that. The lion pictured may be young but it is grown and in my estimation weighs a good three hundred pounds. Make no mistake that cat can kill you dead just as fast ad a 10 year old pride queen.
The experts want to stop all hunting so they will no doubt tell anti folks that lion hunting is not sustainable.......bull@#%€. High fence hunting is sustainable for as long as people are willing to pay to hunt. When the pay stops the breeding stops and then the lion population in total will decline greatly........self fulfilling prophecy!

Bwannabe you have a nice trophy sir! Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[Vevew]

Vevew,
Please can can you tell us more and we explain how to judge the age of the lions by this criterion ?
Thank you !

Lighter nose means younger lion, dark nose means old lion. However this method alone is not enough to estimate the age accurately. For white lions it works quite well.
More info here.

CAustin , I was just showing you scientific studies, not just guesswork. Please read them before saying "They are wrong!". They don't want to end all hunting. They say that the current way trophy hunting is done and managed is harmful to wild lions. They don't mention canned hunting.

 

[CAustin]

Ok Vevew you have four posts in a year now. You started your comments about Bwannabe's lion by saying :Quote "WOW Bwannabe that is a very young lion I can see from the color of its nose"

Now why don't you read the material you referenced yourself ? First paragraph 5th sentence : Quote " We provide information based on a 10 yr study in Botswana showing no statistically significant pattern of nose darkening with age for southern African lions." The lion was taken in the Republic of South Africa. Do you know where that is? It's in Southern Africa. You ever been there? You ever hunted anything anywhere? My guess is no. You insulted the AH member and his trophy with your comments about its age. According to the information you asked me to read....YOU are WRONG.

Here is something for you to really ponder. Canned hunting as you want to call it, would love to see you in a 1000 acres with a lion, will assure the existence of lions period. Sustaining free range lions will depend on The price the governments put on the tags for the animals. Period. When the population gets too low tag prices must go up or hunts stopped for a period of time for the population to rebound. South Africa has a very strong game management policy that other countries could emulate if the so choose. Oh by the way do you know that lions kill each other in the wild? The big old guys kill young males and the young strong males coming in to take over an area kill the old males and all their young. Happens every day all over Africa except where they raise the lions for hunting.

The trophy you insulted is a fully grown female that could rip any of us apart. She is healthy and obviously well feed.....not like some in the wild. I don't care if she is three years old or ten....she is mature and has provided her game ranch with a profit and provided jobs for people who might otherwise have none!

 

[BnC 04]

CAustin, I think VeVew may just be another member of an Anti-cell that was activated.

 

[CAustin]

BnC 04 you are no doubt correct in that assessment. I think the fact that there are a total of 4 posts on here in a year is a dead give away.
Vevew would you please tell me how old this lion is from your years of experience and eminent expertise?

 

[Vevew]

Vevew would you please tell me how old this lion is from your years of experience and eminent expertise?

I don't have "eminent expertise". By the way, why did you get so angry from my post? I only showed you scientific studies.
I just read articles about wildlife and watch documentaries a lot. I'd say the lion in the picture is about 2 years old or less. I can't see the head to body ratio because the picture is so zoomed-in, so I can't give a better estimate.

Here is something for you to really ponder. Canned hunting as you want to call it, would love to see you in a 1000 acres with a lion, will assure the existence of lions period.
...
The trophy you insulted is a fully grown female that could rip any of us apart. She is healthy and obviously well feed.....not like some in the wild. I don't care if she is three years old or ten....she is mature and has provided her game ranch with a profit and provided jobs for people who might otherwise have none!

I don't understand how the lion's deadliness has any relevance to anything. What matters is that it was raised in captivity just to be killed. It was not a wild lion, so killing it was not part of any wildlife management program and therefore had no conservation value. Canned hunting is done only for profit. Now, please, if I'm wrong, then correct me without raging. I'm trying to learn about hunting and its sustainability.

Sustaining free range lions will depend on The price the governments put on the tags for the animals. Period. When the population gets too low tag prices must go up or hunts stopped for a period of time for the population to rebound. South Africa has a very strong game management policy that other countries could emulate if the so choose.

Sure, the price of the tags matters, but more important is the quota; the actual percentage of the population how many lions will be shot. The scientific studies I linked mentioned that excessive quotas were the biggest issue of lion trophy hunting in most of the countries. South Africa wasn't part of the study, so I'd like know more about their management policy.

 

[35bore]

I just arrived back from RSA. The President of the RSA lion growers, is in the USA testifying before a committee this week.
one outfit Benkoe Lion Safaris has over 500 lions to release for hunts.

I was there June 9, 2014. A lion in a 2000 acre pen is no joke, the lion will evade you and went wounded will attack.

Bunny huggers want to put the cartoon animal emotions into the wildlife and they dont understand the wildlife. My PH was Leon Small and Korbus Gobler.
View attachment 28422

Congrats Bwannabe, a fine animal. Would love to hear the story and see some more pics from the hunt. Obviously on a different thread.... Again, congrats.

 

[ActionBob]

If you are about to go hunting, please check the game reserve's wildlife management plan. You might be contributing to the extinction of lions.[/QUOTE]


What a line of bull crap! The human birth rate and the resulting loss of habitat will be the wild Lion's demise. And I for one am not going to stand up and volunteer to get off the Planet, so I don't feel as though I can ask any one else to either.

If anything, it is logical that controlled hunting is the only way to maintain Lions in the wild. There has to be a way to control the population of Lions to keep them from killing livestock and thus the local peoples livelihood. And to keep them from killing people... The anti hunting crowd that is sitting safely back in Europe and America does not need to wonder if their family members will make it back home tonight or if they will be dragged out by some hungry cat.... Pretty damned easy to be on your high horse sitting in your condo with a full belly.

A properly regulated hunting program can bring in a lot of money to the local communities that have to deal with wild lions. Not only can there be control of problem cats, but also money to reimburse for lost livestock.... Likewise hunting of Elephants and damaged crops. And taking a pro-active approach to removing old mature and non breeding/non Pride member lions from the population takes them out of competition for available wild food sourses, but it also removes the cats most likely to become man and livestock killers...... Without some mechanism in place, I'm sure the locals will take matters into their own hands and that may likely be poisoning indiscriminately. Hunting is also the best way to give these animals the highest value and thus encourage further tolerance of them by the only people who can really decide the future of them, the people who will share the land with them .

Without controlled hunting of wild lions, the parks will be the only places left with them. And all dangerous wildlife in Africa will likely face that same fate....

I deal with a lot of "information" from many sources and there is something I have learned about statistics presented by people with an agenda.... They are just like a bikini..... What it reveals is intriguing, but what it conceals is vital!

 

[CAustin]

Vevew your not trying to learn anything. You have an agenda. People know why you are on this forum and it's not as you say. I will not respond to you further and suggest that the moderator remove you from the forum.

Have you hugged your bunny today?

 

[35bore]

This isn't hunting! This is no different than shooting a cow in a fenced paddock! The poor buggers don't stand a chance!

Once again, opinions being thrown around like semen at a college party (not just you capstick, but ALL of the other negative opinions)... The man asked for "first hand experience". I for one am personally getting sick of the guys who think they are better than others, based on their personal theory that these enclosure hunts are wrong. If I ask you what you think...... then yes give your opinion and the reasoning behind it, but if the question was not for opinions, then why respond to the thread.

If I ask "has anyone ever hunted Sable in Zambia?", and I get hounded by a bunch of knuckleheads telling me I am wrong for hunting Sable in Zambia because hunting Sable in SA is much better (and you have NO experience hunting Sable in Zambia) then why should I give two shits what your opinion is, you have NO experience with the questioned I asked....

Sick of it...

 

[harden]

Vevew Would like you to understand something about lion and hunting. This is from an ANTI HUNTER and you cannot dispute his science in anyway. It's common sense management and when he states management that is his word for hunting as he stands in front of his anti - hunting friends.

 

[harden]

And as for lion hunting in S A . I support it just as farming and raising any livstock. If you are against raising lion then every cow and pig and chicken should be set free. You can't have it both ways.

 

[CAustin]

Well said Artistry.

 

[Vevew]

Vevew Would like you to understand something about lion and hunting. This is from an ANTI HUNTER and you cannot dispute his science in anyway. It's common sense management and when he states management that is his word for hunting as he stands in front of his anti - hunting friends.

I've seen the video and understand the science. But as I said in one of my earlier messages, the problem is that the quotas are too high. Too many wild lions are being killed in trophy hunts. Trophy hunting can be sustainable, but right now in many countries it is NOT sustainable. See the scientific data I posted earlier:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0073808
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20825444

And as for lion hunting in S A . I support it just as farming and raising any livstock. If you are against raising lion then every cow and pig and chicken should be set free. You can't have it both ways.

Well, actually one could argue that there is a huge difference because livestock is raised to be killed for food, while for canned hunts the lions are raised only to be killed for fun. The cruelty is very similar to bull fighting, and similarly most people would like to see it disappear, even though some people call it entertainment; just look at the polls taken worldwide. Most people can see the distinction between killing for food and killing for fun.

Also, while most hunters are eager to tell how THEY are the most important conservationists, canned lion hunting has no conservation value. It is done only for profit.

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By the way, I recently read an article that said "About 10 wild lions are killed in trophy hunts each year in South Africa." That is surprisingly few. The article didn't give any source, so I don't know if the number is correct. In Tanzania the number is many hundreds.

 

[CAustin]

Yea! Vevew is up to six posts now. I know everyone on this site has now seen the error of our ways and we are all ready to convert to tree hugging. Everyone quick turn your guns into the government and move to a commune ......

 

[billc]

Well I decide I dont much care what some may think of my 15 year old son hunting a female lion that was raised to hunt.We will enjoy it for the hunt it is as I will never be able to afford a lion hunt in any other country then SA.Cant wait to see the first track and the stalk from there.

 

[BRICKBURN]

………..

Also, while most hunters are eager to tell how THEY are the most important conservationists, ……...

We are.

Please join Natasha and expend some effort and resources to save Wildlife.

http://www.africahunting.com/thread...-hunter-natasha-illum-berg.16382/#post-130391

 

[ActionBob]

Bill;
Have a great hunt and I am very happy for you and your son to be able to share this wonderful experience!

As I understand it, it is very unlikely your son will be hunting a female lion that was just "raised to be hunted". She will very likely be an old female that no longer is able to contribute to propagation of the species.

I can only see a couple scenarios where you might be hunting a young female lion. She could be an animal that is consuming resources but not contributing anything (ouch!, bit my tongue here, holding back the political commentary).

The more nefarious possibility is that if lion hunting is closed, or the primary market for these lions is taken away (such as closing importation to the US), these lions will likely become a financial liability rather than an asset. AND/OR the persons owning the lions and having large amounts of capital at risk if said market is likely to be lost, may decide to take pre-emptive measures to hedge their potential loss and start to offer otherwise productive females to the market. Very much the way people sell off stocks if they think the market is going to go lower.

Aside from those possibilities, she is likely to be scarred up from a life time of fights with other cats and injuries from taking down game..... Whether raised in "captivity" or not. When I spoke with a fellow who I trust told me the truth, and who had no vested interest in lion hunting but lives there and is in a position to know, he told me how these captive lions are fed..... They are allowed to hunt live prey. Granted there may be cases where meat might be put out but that is not necessarily the norm. An example might be when a large animal is hunted that just does not make good meat, perhaps a large stinky old bull giraffe.

Admittedly I have not hunted lion yet... That is on the horizon soon so I have been researching and talking to people who have hunted them and those who facilitate lion hunting, especially in RSA. So I do have a vested interest in learning as much as I can about the conditions, the animals and the circumstances. I do not want to just go shoot an animal, I want to hunt it. I am confident that with good research and preparation I will get that full experience, as will Bill's son. In fact from the sound of it he may be in for a lot more than he bargained for if Bill's surprise works out!

Bob

 

[Vevew]

As I understand it, it is very unlikely your son will be hunting a female lion that was just "raised to be hunted". She will very likely be an old female that no longer is able to contribute to propagation of the species.

Most of the lion trophies in South Africa actually are "raised to be hunted".

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

A Nat Geo video showing lions that were hand raised and imprinted....really.

Go here and see how the lions raised for hunting act when hunted:

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/lion-hunt-charge-and-attack.15953/

Seen numerous videos showing the same. These lions don't come running to the truck looking for a meal or belly scratch. If you have an issue with the hunting of raised lions, so be it, I won't try to change your mind. But don't make it into something it isn't to support your argument. At best it means your ignorant on the subject, at worst you're flat out lying. That would make you no different then the idiot antis who believe Steven Spielberg killed a dinosaur.