Lion hunts in RSA

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Mike

It doesn't play any part in conservation whatsoever because wild lions are on a set quota and once that quota is filled, then that's it for the season. The two things are not connected in any way.

Shakari,
I initially typed a response, but deleted it, since maybe you really don't understand what is happening on this continent. Although we are all entitled to our opinion on the Captive Bred Lions, and so are you, this post has ZERO to do with that. This has to do with your quote that I have placed above, and I really hope that you will understand the FACTS, which I am about to explain to you.

The people( See Poachers) who deal in the Lion bone trade, all over the world, really don't care where the bones come from. They care about money.
They could buy the SA Lion bones, with minimal risk, paying a low price, and selling high.
If they can't buy the bones that come from the South African Lions, they will target the wild lion population to meet their demand.
I can assure you, that there is not one poacher, that will abide to Quotas.
This is why I have tried to lay it out in a civil manner,as your quote above,showed me that you are thinking purely from a "hunting" point of view. Yes, the Captive bred lions, maybe does nothing for conservation on the hunting of Wild Lion populations, but it certainly takes the pressure off the Wild Populations when it comes to poaching, hence conservation.

All the best and take care,

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I agree the twain will never meet........ and that's the difference between true hunting and simply shooting to equip a trophy room for the owners self aggrandisment and when the day comes when true hunting is finished as it surely one day will, it'll be a very sad day and I hope I won't be around to see it.

I'll say it (yet) again. The captive bred lion shooting industry has nothing whatsoever to do with hunting or conservation. It never has and it never will. - And what's more, every day it continues and every lion that dies under such circumstances, does more and more damage to the honourable & ethical tradition of real trophy sport hunting.

I will say it again we have all heard your opinion, we have all ad homo, read and heard how despicable you believe we are as operators and professional hunters, for doing such hunts.

And most of us don't agree with your view, SO WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG... In your world I, they, we, in my world you.

 

[shakari]

Marius

I said earlier that wild lions face a number of threats and not least amongst them is the indigenous peoples of Africa killing them illegally by any and all means possible and at every opportunity and that, that is a very different matter with totally different solutions (if there are solutions) but one that also needs addressing.

However, breeding lions in captivity doesn't relieve that pressure one iota because they have an entirely different market....... unless you're suggesting the buyers are the same? Also that bones etc of many of the lions killed by people such as the Masai etc who kill them for entirely different reasons.

I also mentioned that the sale of lion bones to the east is considered illegal by some countries and that those countries are currently trying to formalise the situation & make said trade illegal.

The argument that captive breeding of lions having a contribution to conservation has absolutely no truth in it but if you think they do, I'll be happy to debate that as well if you wish.

 

[Red Leg]

I really had been trying to sit this thing out, but do want to make sure all who are jumping Shakari understand there are also potential paying clients that find shooting captive bred lions reprehensible as a form of "hunting." Doesn't mean it isn't a dangerous thing to do - just that it isn't hunting - its paying to kill a lion. I put this sort of thing in the same box as those operators who do put and take buffalo behind a fence - heck, there are at least a couple of fellows on the web who go so far as to advertise specific bulls with their photographs - I bet they even have names. And then of course there are the hippo and croc "hunts" where the animals are shot out of a pond out back. And yes, I do believe that there is a difference between captive populations of PG who are living "naturally" on tens of thousands of hectares of fenced property and the lion that was "acclimated' last week to the same environment.

So for those who support this sort of thing, know that there are at least a few of us out here that feel little more than disdain when we visit a trophy room, see that unbelievably maned lion, and then hear about the South African hunt.

Whether further utilizing the animal to supply the Asian market relieves pressure on wild populations or simply keeps the pump primed, I do not know. I would suspect evidence could be assembled to support either opinion. My objection is with regard to the ethics of the hunt.

 

[Big5]

I really had been trying to sit this thing out, but do want to make sure all who are jumping Shakari understand there are also potential paying clients that find shooting captive bred lions reprehensible as a form of "hunting." Doesn't mean it isn't a dangerous thing to do - just that it isn't hunting - its paying to kill a lion. I put this sort of thing in the same box as those operators who do put and take buffalo behind a fence - heck, there are at least a couple of fellows on the web who go so far as to advertise specific bulls with their photographs - I bet they even have names. And then of course there are the hippo and croc "hunts" where the animals are shot out of a pond out back. And yes, I do believe that there is a difference between captive populations of PG who are living "naturally" on tens of thousands of hectares of fenced property and the lion that was "acclimated' last week to the same environment.

So for those who support this sort of thing, know that there are at least a few of us out here that feel little more than disdain when we visit a trophy room, see that unbelievably maned lion, and then hear about the South African hunt.

Whether further utilizing the animal to supply the Asian market relieves pressure on wild populations or simply keeps the pump primed, I do not know. I would suspect evidence could be assembled to support either opinion. My objection is with regard to the ethics of the hunt.

Well said.

 

[shakari]

We're DAYS past the few hours you promised so to make it easy for you, I contacted a few members to find out more. One reply was:

"The s&!t was voted in 68 against 42. Only 110 members voted less than 10% and there were no forward notification that there will be a vote, the f@#king thing was steamrollered"

So working on the 1500 members you quoted, less than 10% of the membership were present when the motion was proposed & voted on. (Apparently without any pre-warning to others who might have a different opinion!)

Hardly a democratic vote IMO & definitely much more like a hijack by a small minority with a private agenda.

Incidentally: I knew Stevie Smith who founded PHASA & he'd spin in his grave if he knew what was currently happening on this!

I'm stating obvious facts, i suggest you read PHASA' s constitution, i am not about to start running around the cats ass again with you STEVE.

Check out the demographic of the members, obviously to those who it matered they attended, to those who did not attend well they obviously don't care, hunting is a crap excuse as AGM is in November.

I will have a solid to the vote number for you within hours, just to allow you to find something else to bitch about,

There was no blind side whoever gave you that idea has the facts wrong, apart from that AGM is the stage that is set every year formally voting it is no damn secret....it has been like that for years decades even..

Out!,! enough is enough
....

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Love the language, shakari, showing some serious vocab there, i just returned from a lovely long weekend spent with the family, my lovely wife, beautiful 3 year old daughter, my brother and his family....... and find this on a site that i like.... not to impressed, to be honest....I'll work my contacts as well.

Once again well done on the vocab.
Ps check on how many outfitters do offer lion hunts in SA and prove that they are in the minority...you will find quite the opposite... there are to date 10 outfitters that have publicly distanced themselves... and they all have wilderness areas...

Btw, PHASA is trying to increase wilding periods, without PHASA it will carry on, so don't really see the point....., when considering that PHASA should support their members, i believe they have no option but to be part of it and try to work on positive change, which they are doing.....

Their other option would be to post terrible posts with drunken language, and to be honest personally i and most others prefer the option taken....
WoW!

 

[shakari]

It was a quote from a member, hence the speech marks at the beginning & end of the quote. These " quote " are speech marks.

I can only assume he chose to use such language because he felt strongly about the situation.

That said, it is one of the most versatile words in the English language so why not.

Interesting that you should be shocked by the language & not by the figures though! LOL

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

It was a quote from a member, hence the speech marks at the beginning & end of the quote. These " quote " are speech marks.

I can only assume he chose to use such language because he felt strongly about the situation.6

That said, it is one of the most versatile words in the English language so why not.

Interesting that you should be shocked by the language & not by the figures though! LOL

Not shocked by the figures due to the fact that i don't believe them as i was there.... i will ask a official release from PHASA in the morning,... lol

The language though... the boy needs Tabasco... as a side note i did a apprenticeship under major Don Price (southern quest safari's) old unit 6. The major reckons that wild lion quotas should have been cut by a number, sometime ago and the SA lion scene should have been pushed....

Another perspective, incidentally Don operated for30 plus years.....

 

[BRICKBURN]

????...

Hardly a democratic vote IMO & definitely much more like a hijack by a small minority with a private agenda.
??..

Steve, this is a PG site.

Was it a duly constituted meeting of the body? Probably.
Was the meeting called with the required time provided in the Constitution of PHASA? Probably.
If not then the members have recourse.

Can motions be entertained from the floor of the meeting? Sounds like it.
If not allowed the members have recourse.

If the meeting was called properly and there was a quorum present, then it is a very real demonstration of democracy in action.
Simple majority of the body.
Those folks who chose to attend the meeting were obviously concerned enough to show up and vote on the matters of the organization.
Those who did not attend the meeting get what they deserve for not participating.

Sounds like some members might like to create some changes.



The vast majority of the voters in my riding have voted against the current MP for 17 years. It's still a democracy.

Some old guy once said:
"Democracy degenerates into tyranny where no one has discipline and society exists in chaos."

 

[Norwegianwoods]

If the majority of members want a new voting on the matter, I would guess that could be easily done.

To sit home and complain about a voting result when you are not bothered to attend and vote yourself is just sad and shows little interest in the matter.

Sometimes I don't attend to different meetings myself when the agenda and voting in the meetings are of low interest to me, but I am for sure not complaining about the results from those meetings.

 

[shakari]

Brickburn

I don't know if it was a legal vote or not but do reckon it was deliberately engineered by a small number with a private agenda & would hope the majority have the common sense to call another meeting (emergency if necessary) & overturn it with another proposal & vote........ & perhaps also a motion to change the rules to make a postal ballot on such issues mandatory.

One of the problems with PHASA is it has members all over the country & it's a VERY big country so it's never possible to get a large percentage of members to attend any one meeting.

Cost is also an issue for many members - To say nothing of the fact that there's always a significant number of members hunting........ which is another reason why postal ballots (or perhaps online voting?) are such a good idea for them.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I know all about big countries; coming from a Province that is half the size of the entire RSA.
I regularly have to deal with meetings where geography is an issue.

If there is a structural issue (attendance is poor) then someone should propose a change to the constitution and work to get that change in place.

If enough people care they will create a change. If not, it will stay the same.

Saying it is undemocratic is silly.

 

[shakari]

I agree that the system needs changing but don't see how a a surprise proposal & vote by less than 10% of the membership is anything like democratic.

I know all about big countries; coming from a Province that is half the size of the entire RSA.
I regularly have to deal with meetings where geography is an issue.

If there is a structural issue (attendance is poor) then someone should propose a change to the constitution and work to get that change in place.

If enough people care they will create a change. If not, it will stay the same.

Saying it is undemocratic is silly.

 

[shakari]

Assuming the quoted figures are correct then 7.3% of the membership were present & the proposal passed by just 4.53% of the membership and that to me cannot possibly be construed as a fair & democratic vote & if the rules of the Association allow it, then both the rules & the vote are extremely wrong & I'm astounded the CEO allowed it.

 

[Savage Hunter]

if the rules of operation were voted on by the membership...... and if this vote was operated in accordance with those rules (that were voted on), then it is democratic. To say otherwise is silly.

btw, i don't have a dog in the race. will never hunt lion. too expensive.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Assuming the quoted figures are correct then 7.3% of the membership were present & the proposal passed by just 4.53% of the membership and that to me cannot possibly be construed as a fair & democratic vote & if the rules of the Association allow it, then both the rules & the vote are extremely wrong & I'm astounded the CEO allowed it.

Wrong??

With the pathetic voter turn out at the polls during recent elections (38.3% in one recent example) I can see the exact same apathy occurring within PHASA.

The vote still counts. People did not bother to exercise their vote. Who's fault is that?

Maybe they will be moved to action now.

 

[shakari]

I'm not even a member now but as I understand it, the proposal was sprung on them during the meeting so no-one had any forewarning but to me, such a proposal and vote (esp with such a low number in attendance) should have been referred to a postal vote but either way, if my uncle had tits, she'd be my aunt so what's done is done.

The question is will the other members be able to make their own proposal either for a postal ballot or a show of hands with a more realistic number of members present and will they reverse the situation?

If they don't then it'll be a very sad day for both PHASA and the industry in general.

 

[daved]

Hi Steve
Im going to make another statement.

It was on the Agenda, so no surprises. The meeting had a Quorum.


The PHASA executive ( All operating Outfitters ) proposed a 2 month release period and 5 000ha (12 000acre) minimum hunt area.I was at the AGM and voted for the PHASA proposal.

This was overturned by a vote from the floor ( All members and hunting outfitters )
to the current 7 days release and 1000ha.( this is still better than some Government provincial legislation )

The vote was close and needed to be counted. I know at least 2 members of the PHASA executive who are dead against, SA Lion hunts. But they have access to the few wild areas in SA.

The general feeling from the floor was that SAPA ( SA Predator breeders association ) decided on minimum times and sizes and that PHASA as hunters would not interfere with THEIR decision, in THEIR industry. We would hunt as is OUR personal view, but should not overstep the PHASA SAPA position even if it was legal to do so.

This is not and old boys club trying to push their ideas.
I WAS VOTED ONTO THE EXECUTIVE AT A LOCAL EAST CAPE MEETING AND TURNED IT DOWN.

I don't know what else to say. PHASA is an organization that is trying to make a difference. It has a wide membership and obviously cant please everyone.
All the PHASA haters are not members and don't understand what PHASA is doing for the industry at local government level as well as at international level.

As a east cape representative we are busy dealing with local government to try and open up legal leopard hunting in the eastern cape. This will benefit ALL outfitters members or not. This is a PHASA initiative. getting the tourist minister to meet the Presidents of DSC and SCI and show them how important hunting is to SA. Taking the minister of tourism to SCI Vegas to have a SA tourism booth to promote SA as a Hunting destination. Another PHASA in initiative.
All outfitters and hunting guests are benefitting from PHASAs non stop fight to make hunting possible in SA.

I think people must stop seeing the wood for the trees, stop focusing on small issues and look at the big issues that face hunting in Africa. Big destinations are being closed down, SA is going to be a last stand and PHASA is leading the charge.

I want to ask all the Outfitters that are non members, why aren't you a member ? Don't you have a responsibility to join in the decision making processes to making our industry a better place ? GET INVOLVED.

The majority voted and I will stand by the decision as I think Hunters need to unite. Personally I will not HUNT a Lion on under 10 000acres. and if you thought it a shoot, let me tell you its a hunt, its a full ball adrenalin hunt. On big areas without a decent tracker you wont find your lion.

my best to you all, but I`m over an OUT on this subject. Anything more is just hurting hunting and our right to hunt no matter our personal feelings.
Dave

 

[shakari]

Dave,

As I see it, this is a VERY BIG issue and one that will (not could but will) have a massive adverse, long term effect on ALL hunting throughout Africa........ but you've just confirmed what I said that it was a surprise proposal from the floor and it overturned the original proposal of 2 months.

2 months isn't anywhere near enough IMO, but it is a heck of a lot better than the few days that was voted on and in my opinion, that surprise proposal from the floor was almost certainly pre-planned (therefore a hijack) ......... and I'm very surprised the rules allow a vote by less than 5% of the membership to be passed (assuming those figures I was given and quoted are correct?)

If the rules do allow it, the rules need changing.

Hi Steve
Im going to make another statement.

It was on the Agenda, so no surprises. The meeting had a Quorum.


The PHASA executive ( All operating Outfitters ) proposed a 2 month release period and 5 000ha (12 000acre) minimum hunt area.I was at the AGM and voted for the PHASA proposal.

This was overturned by a vote from the floor ( All members and hunting outfitters )
to the current 7 days release and 1000ha.( this is still better than some Government provincial legislation )

The vote was close and needed to be counted. I know at least 2 members of the PHASA executive who are dead against, SA Lion hunts. But they have access to the few wild areas in SA.

The general feeling from the floor was that SAPA ( SA Predator breeders association ) decided on minimum times and sizes and that PHASA as hunters would not interfere with THEIR decision, in THEIR industry. We would hunt as is OUR personal view, but should not overstep the PHASA SAPA position even if it was legal to do so.

This is not and old boys club trying to push their ideas.
I WAS VOTED ONTO THE EXECUTIVE AT A LOCAL EAST CAPE MEETING AND TURNED IT DOWN.

I don't know what else to say. PHASA is an organization that is trying to make a difference. It has a wide membership and obviously cant please everyone.
All the PHASA haters are not members and don't understand what PHASA is doing for the industry at local government level as well as at international level.

As a east cape representative we are busy dealing with local government to try and open up legal leopard hunting in the eastern cape. This will benefit ALL outfitters members or not. This is a PHASA initiative. getting the tourist minister to meet the Presidents of DSC and SCI and show them how important hunting is to SA. Taking the minister of tourism to SCI Vegas to have a SA tourism booth to promote SA as a Hunting destination. Another PHASA in initiative.
All outfitters and hunting guests are benefitting from PHASAs non stop fight to make hunting possible in SA.

I think people must stop seeing the wood for the trees, stop focusing on small issues and look at the big issues that face hunting in Africa. Big destinations are being closed down, SA is going to be a last stand and PHASA is leading the charge.

I want to ask all the Outfitters that are non members, why aren't you a member ? Don't you have a responsibility to join in the decision making processes to making our industry a better place ? GET INVOLVED.

The majority voted and I will stand by the decision as I think Hunters need to unite. Personally I will not HUNT a Lion on under 10 000acres. and if you thought it a shoot, let me tell you its a hunt, its a full ball adrenalin hunt. On big areas without a decent tracker you wont find your lion.

my best to you all, but I`m over an OUT on this subject. Anything more is just hurting hunting and our right to hunt no matter our personal feelings.
Dave