Lets stir a pot of hot steamy stuff

[Doug3006]

I agree with the posters who say that there's no such thing as knock down power so far as big game goes. You can drop an animal where it stands if you hit a critical structural area (like breaking both shoulders) or shut down its central nervous system with a brain or spine shot. The only way to kill an animal is to shut off the oxygenated blood supply to the brain......by causing catastrophic damage to a vital organ or artery. Knocking big game down via kinetic energy just ain't gonna happen.

Yes, I've blown up a jack rabbit or two myself. To create the same effect on a Buffalo you'd need a field piece.

 

[Newboomer]

Knock Down Power
The only personal experience I can confidently relate to knock down power involves handguns and steel targets. My son and I occasionally shoot torso-shaped steel targets with a 1911 and a Glock 9mm. We use Winchester White-Box ammo in both. For the 9mm (115 grains, 1190 fps, energy=362 ft-lbs and momentum=19 lb-ft/sec) and for the .45 acp (230 grains, 835 fps, energy=356 ft-lbs and momentum=27 lb-ft/sec). For these two rounds the muzzle energy is essentially the same but, the .45 acp/230 grain combo enjoys a 42% increase in momentum. What my son and I have both observed is the .45 striking the targets with much more authority and, in some instances, the 9mm failing to knock the target down. I freely admit that this may have no correlation to knock down power, as it relates to shooting a live animal, but the results on steel is very noticeable and, in my opinion, undeniable. Therefore since the muzzle energy of both rounds is essentially the same, the difference in the way each round strikes the target must be attributed to the difference in momentum (42%).
DISCLAIMER: I always stand to be corrected.

When you hit steel the bullet has no penetration which loses force. Steel gives no penetration so it has to move. That movement is your knockdown or knockover power. All the energy is concentrated on that one spot and in one direction.

 

[Newboomer]

I agree with the posters who say that there's no such thing as knock down power so far as big game goes. You can drop an animal where it stands if you hit a critical structural area (like breaking both shoulders) or shut down its central nervous system with a brain or spine shot. The only way to kill an animal is to shut off the oxygenated blood supply to the brain......by causing catastrophic damage to a vital organ or artery. Knocking big game down via kinetic energy just ain't gonna happen.

Yes, I've blown up a jack rabbit or two myself. To create the same effect on a Buffalo you'd need a field piece.

When I shot my buf in the chest his front feet came up off the ground about a foot or so. I don't know if the bullet energy did that or he jumped. It was a Barnes 350gr TSX in 375HH at about 30 yds. We found him dead about 75-80 yds away. His heart was pulverized so he ran on residual energy until he bled out internally.

 

[Nyati]

I recommend reading " The perfect shot " by Kevin Robertson.

Chapter 2, Practical Field Ballistics for the African Game Hunter.

There are also two very good books by Pierre van der Walt

African medium game cartridges, and African dangerous game cartridges.

 

[Doug3006]

When I shot my buf in the chest his front feet came up off the ground about a foot or so. I don't know if the bullet energy did that or he jumped. It was a Barnes 350gr TSX in 375HH at about 30 yds. We found him dead about 75-80 yds away. His heart was pulverized so he ran on residual energy until he bled out internally.

Yes sir...in my experience, that's a typical reaction to a frontal body shot...Buffalo...Whitetail...whatever. They recoil or jump when struck. The trauma the bullet created caused massive bleeding and a quick drop in blood pressure. You shot him well, and he died.

 

[Red Leg]

I agree with the posters who say that there's no such thing as knock down power so far as big game goes. You can drop an animal where it stands if you hit a critical structural area (like breaking both shoulders) or shut down its central nervous system with a brain or spine shot. The only way to kill an animal is to shut off the oxygenated blood supply to the brain......by causing catastrophic damage to a vital organ or artery. Knocking big game down via kinetic energy just ain't gonna happen.

Yes, I've blown up a jack rabbit or two myself. To create the same effect on a Buffalo you'd need a field piece.

I generally agree with everything you have said. However, I have also experienced a number instant collapses on several animals of different species where no skeletal or obvious nerve structure was involved. One was a cape buffalo which stood up from his bed, and at the shot collapsed right back into it with a couple of waves of his ear. That 300 gr TSX did in fact go straight through his heart. I should also note most heart shot animals I have observed have taken off in a short run before collapsing. With respect to unintended instant collapse (i.e. not a shot to the base of the neck), I have had several deer do the same sort of thing and an Iberian Ibex. I don't believe kinetic energy had anything to do with it, but I do believe that for whatever reason some shots seem to simply turn off the nervous system. At least in the animals that have done that after one of my shots, that shutdown has more often than not occurred with a heart shot.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Main problem is that he is left handed. Cool hat though.

@crs
Nothing wrong with left handers.
The right hand side of the body is controlled by the left side of the brain and the left side of the body is controlled by the right side of the brain.

Therefore one must conclude only LEFT HANDERS ARE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND.
Bob

 

[BourbonTrail]

@crs
Nothing wrong with left handers.
The right hand side of the body is controlled by the left side of the brain and the left side of the body is controlled by the right side of the brain.

Therefore one must conclude only LEFT HANDERS ARE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND.
Bob

As an ambidextrous, I approve this message

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I generally agree with everything you have said. However, I have also experienced a number instant collapses on several animals of different species where no skeletal or obvious nerve structure was involved. One was a cape buffalo which stood up from his bed, and at the shot collapsed right back into it with a couple of waves of his ear. That 300 gr TSX did in fact go straight through his heart. I should also note most heart shot animals I have observed have taken off in a short run before collapsing. With respect to unintended instant collapse (i.e. not a shot to the base of the neck), I have had several deer do the same sort of thing and an Iberian Ibex. I don't believe kinetic energy had anything to do with it, but I do believe that for whatever reason some shots seem to simply turn off the nervous system. At least in the animals that have done that after one of my shots, that shutdown has more often than not occurred with a heart shot.

Regarding heart shots, I have read somewhere on some hunting site, that when an animal is heart shot and drops in it's tracks, it is because the bullet impacted the heart when it was full with blood.

On impact with the now presumed expanded bullet into this full and also expanded heart, the bullet acts like a sledgehammer and violence compresses the heart causing a very sharp severe rise of pressure in the circulatory system. The pressure is enough and throughout the system that the smaller blood vessels burst, such as in the brain.

Sounds quite plausible, but true? I don't know. But if it is, it most certainly took energy to make it happen.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

He has essentially shat on Taylors KO formula by saying what he has. I totally disagree with his comments apart from getting he bullet to the vitals. I have a feeling he has just said that as a dare

@norfolk shooter
Mate knock down energy is bullshit. It just don't add up in physics and momentum.
A one ounce projectile can not physically move an object weighing 200 pound no matter what speed it is doing.
One person (idiot) showed very conclusively that knock down power is a myth. This person put on body armourer and got someone to shoot him with different calibers and body shots. Even with energises of over 3,000fpe he didn't move. Badly bruised yes but didn't move.
Sudden and catastrophic damage to the CNS or drop in blood pressure MAY cause an animal to have immediate death and cause it to drop on the spot but not kinetic energy.
The quicker a projectile causes this damage the quicker the death.
I have shot rabbits with a fast 25 and 75gn projectiles at high speed. This caused the animal to be torn to pieces. Was this knock down power. NO. it was a combination of centrifugal forces at extremely high speed ( around 300,000rpm), bullet fragmentation and hydraulic forces all combined to discombooberate said bunny.
If a projectile has enough force to move a charging buffalo back on its feet then newton's 3rd law says the shooter must be moved back in proportion. If the projectile moves said buffalo back 1 foot and it weighs 2,000 pounds then a 200 pound shooter should be moved back at least 10 feet or more.
I rest my case your honour.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'd assert the opposite is true - assuming there is knockdown power is ridiculous.

not sure how knock down power is even a thing. The idea that I could knock over a 200 lb deer that has 9000X more mass than a 150 gr bullet is a logical absurdity. And in general, the difference between big. heavy game and the bullets used to kill them is even more stark.

An 1800 lb cape buffalo has more than 40,000 times the mass of a 300 gr bullet. A 12K pound ele has almost 170,000X more mass than even a 500 gr bullet.

I do believe there is value in Talyor KO formula, but it ain't "knockdown" power. and FWIW, I think his real shot was at the Hatcher Theory, which is just absolute BS. We've known for decades that Hatcher is complete BS.

When I was a cadet in the Houston police academy, we watched a number of surveillance camera videos of shootouts in convenience stores and the like. One of them, the clerk shot the turd with a 44 Mag from about 10 feet. He didn't get knocked down, or even fall down. He *ran* outside to the edge of the parking lot, sat down, and bled to death

Similar to that, there was the story of a soldier firing an M2 (or some HMG) that catastrophically failed...the bolt was pushed through the rear of the machine gun and did a complete through and through on the soldier. No knockdown from a distance of about a foot, and I'd guess an M2 bolt weighs a pound or two.

My own personal experience - shot about a 150# 1-horned spike with a 165 gr 30-06 once. Shot distance was about 40 or 50 yards. The buck had such a lack of reaction to the shot, I was sure I'd cleanly missed it - he didn't fall over, jump, bleat, or even run off - he just continued walking like there hadn't been a shot 5 seconds earlier. Then I went to look for the blood trail, was so patent even a little kid could follow it. I recovered the bullet just under the offside skin. Surely THAT should have knocked the deer down since it "dumped all its energy into the deer."

If there were anything to the idea of knockdown power, the effect of physics on the targets would be consistent, and the effect(s) most ricky-tick ain't consistent. I'd bet a paycheck there isn't a guy on this forum who has knocked down *every single animal they ever killed*. We've all shot animals who just didn't know they were dead yet and ran off to die a couple hundred yards away.

@sgt zim
You have just shattered me.
All those body shots Clint Eastwood made on the bad guys with the most powerful handgun in the world were lies. That can't be true.
I saw all those bad guys literally picked up and blown backwards a great distance from his 44 mag. I seed it with my own eyes and TV SHOWS DON'T LIE. So despite what you saw good 'ol Clint disproved you on TV cause he does it all the time.
So cop that mate it is real.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

View attachment 424696
Ingredients
5000 N Taylor KO
500gr Woodleigh Hydro
1 m wound channel
100grams BS

Post controversial YouTube video, mix in some bored gun nuts, shit stir on high for 3-4 days, and bake in an AH approved baking dish or cook on the braai until thoroughly burnt.

Serve hot, or refrigerate in a thread for 10 years and reheat with a new post about how much a 458 win mag sucks. Enjoy.

@Bourbon Trail
You forgot the pinch of salt mate.
Bob

 

[375Fox]

@norfolk shooter
Mate knock down energy is bullshit. It just don't add up in physics and momentum.
A one ounce projectile can not physically move an object weighing 200 pound no matter what speed it is doing.
One person (idiot) showed very conclusively that knock down power is a myth. This person put on body armourer and got someone to shoot him with different calibers and body shots. Even with energises of over 3,000fpe he didn't move. Badly bruised yes but didn't move.
Sudden and catastrophic damage to the CNS or drop in blood pressure MAY cause an animal to have immediate death and cause it to drop on the spot but not kinetic energy.
The quicker a projectile causes this damage the quicker the death.
I have shot rabbits with a fast 25 and 75gn projectiles at high speed. This caused the animal to be torn to pieces. Was this knock down power. NO. it was a combination of centrifugal forces at extremely high speed ( around 300,000rpm), bullet fragmentation and hydraulic forces all combined to discombooberate said bunny.
If a projectile has enough force to move a charging buffalo back on its feet then newton's 3rd law says the shooter must be moved back in proportion. If the projectile moves said buffalo back 1 foot and it weighs 2,000 pounds then a 200 pound shooter should be moved back at least 10 feet or more.
I rest my case your honour.
Bob

Why translate knock down power/energy directly to mean knocking something down on the spot. To me it’s just an exaggerated term for more transfer of energy in most cases. You shoot a more powerful cartridge more energy is transferred, seen in larger wound channels and more damage outside that immediate wound channel. I can’t seem to understand here if everyone is denying an energy transfer from bullet to animal takes place or simply arguing a bullet won’t knock an animal down on the spot from transfer of energy.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Why translate knock down power/energy directly to mean knocking something down on the spot. To me it’s just an exaggerated term for more transfer of energy in most cases. You shoot a more powerful cartridge more energy is transferred, seen in larger wound channels and more damage outside that immediate wound channel. I can’t seem to understand here if everyone is denying an energy transfer from bullet to animal takes place or simply arguing a bullet won’t knock an animal down on the spot from transfer of energy.

Don't forget about bullet performance. More energy on impact does not necessarily mean more energy transferred, where it gets absorbed or how fast.

 

[375Fox]

Don't forget about bullet performance. More energy on impact does not necessarily mean more energy transferred, where it gets absorbed or how fast.

Yes definitely. Just like my example with duiker. Bullet went and and went out without really initiating expansion/slowing down so energy wasn’t transferred to animal just left with the bullet requiring us to track vs the same 250 grain TTSX that stopped on far skin of eland only going maybe 20 yards, all bullets energy was transferred.

 

[Gemsbok45]

Tanks your spot on. If your a hunter carry your 375 it is way more versatile but if your are working then knock out value is everything. I felt my 416 was too small and went to a 500. Huge difference.

 

[CoElkHunter]

@Bourbon Trail
You forgot the pinch of salt mate.
Bob

And Tabasco! HA! HA! HA!

 

[Newboomer]

@crs
Nothing wrong with left handers.
The right hand side of the body is controlled by the left side of the brain and the left side of the body is controlled by the right side of the brain.

Therefore one must conclude only LEFT HANDERS ARE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND.
Bob

Yeah, but everything else is assbackwards.

 

[Newboomer]

@sgt zim
You have just shattered me.
All those body shots Clint Eastwood made on the bad guys with the most powerful handgun in the world were lies. That can't be true.
I saw all those bad guys literally picked up and blown backwards a great distance from his 44 mag. I seed it with my own eyes and TV SHOWS DON'T LIE. So despite what you saw good 'ol Clint disproved you on TV cause he does it all the time.
So cop that mate it is real.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

But you gotta admit Ol' Clint is a superhuman dude and bigger than life. His movies prove it. Chuckle).

 

[Frederik]

Regarding heart shots, I have read somewhere on some hunting site, that when an animal is heart shot and drops in it's tracks, it is because the bullet impacted the heart when it was full with blood.

On impact with the now presumed expanded bullet into this full and also expanded heart, the bullet acts like a sledgehammer and violence compresses the heart causing a very sharp severe rise of pressure in the circulatory system. The pressure is enough and throughout the system that the smaller blood vessels burst, such as in the brain.

Sounds quite plausible, but true? I don't know. But if it is, it most certainly took energy to make it happen.

The heart shots you are reffering to is exactly what I have seen happen lot of times as a ph its also a worry when you just see an animal going down that quickly normally hitting the CNS the back legs will pick up or go down first giving the illusion of the head lifting up that is a good sign. But when an animal just drops especially on a wildebeest or a gemsbuck the bullet might have nicked the spine or go through the hump.

Those heart shots where it just drop them gives the same effect of the animal just dropping. So I have always insisted my clients not to admire their shot but rather reload and get ready for another shot. You can admire the shot after the animal is dead and motionless but will struggle to find that same animal when it stands up as quickly as it dropped and shows you some property.
So some shots close or nisking the spine will drop an animal giving the appearance of knock down power, but that is just the shock effect of the bullet passing by closely to the spine. The faster and bigger bullets make it look even more impressive when creating a bigger wound cavity and impact.

Anyone also enjoying the idea that a calm animal being shot correctly dies faster than a animal that is tense and knows about danger?