Lets stir a pot of hot steamy stuff

[BeeMaa]

@norfolk shooter - you certainly did stir the pot or maybe even hit the hornets nest.
I will sit this one out...

 

[BourbonTrail]

Ingredients
5000 N Taylor KO
500gr Woodleigh Hydro
1 m wound channel
100grams BS

Post controversial YouTube video, mix in some bored gun nuts, shit stir on high for 3-4 days, and bake in an AH approved baking dish or cook on the braai until thoroughly burnt.

Serve hot, or refrigerate in a thread for 10 years and reheat with a new post about how much a 458 win mag sucks. Enjoy.

 

[Berettaco]

To those that argue there is no energy transfer, what drives your decision to choose an appropriate caliber? You could shoot a deer through the lungs with a FMJ 223 and get full penetration through vitals but I think most would argue this is foolish. Same would apply to a Cape buffalo and a 30-06 FMJ bullet. I see no other way to explain it’s a combination of bullet performance, energy transfer, and penetration that kills efficiently.

Yes - shot placement and transfer of energy creating a substantial wound channel.

 

[MMAL]

Could be the stupidest video I have ever seen. I have heard the term knockdown power for a long time and never once considered it to mean knocking the animal over.

I always considered knockdown power to mean energy and the bullet selection. Ever see those ballistic gel molds get shot. The resultingcavity in the center from bigger bullets is the knockdown power that causes tissue damage from not only contact from the bullet but from the pressure wave that sweeps through the animal.

This is why Fmj bullets can kill but do not do it quickly on Lung shots. With contact they may damage (totally made up number). 100 alveoli (had to look that one up). But an expandable might take out 500 alveoli. But a larger expandable with more “knockdown” power might take out 1000+ with contact and from the pressure wave of the bullet. Similar to how a concussion genade can burst an ear drum without contact.

The result is that more knockdown power results in more damage to vitals from the direct contact and the releasing of energy causes a pressure wave.

 

[Tucketed]

I have to say when I paged through I thought “bullshit” but then I thought about killing elk with a bow vs a rifle. If hit properly with enough penetration they drop quickly. We also know that shots are not perfect. Sometimes it’s only one lung and having more shock is very important.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Here's a little part of an article I read on Realguns.com a few years ago. The author, Joe D'allisandro, does a good job debunking (or did he bunk) knock down power.

 

[sureshot375]

It’s kind of a silly topic. I struggle to find much interesting content from gun writers these days.

First off, it’s not really clear what he is talking about. At first he seems to be talking about the ability of a caliber to drop a deer sized animal dead in its tracks vs running off and dying in short distance from the shot. He then conflates the concept above with the capabilities of a rifle to stop a large, charging, wounded animal. These are very different concepts, and neither really have anything to do with Taylor’s KO system which specifically relates to head shots on elephants.

Let’s talk about the first concept, the ability of a cartridge to drop medium sized game in its tracks, although I’m not sure why it matters. Fast calibers of sufficient weight cause hydrostatic shock and instant incapacitation when an animal is shot in the thoracic cavity. Slower calibers kill very effectively, but with less hydrostatic shock and instant incapacitation.

I have personally witnessed somewhere between 75 and 100 animals taken with a .300wby and .375H&H. The 300wby tends to suck the life right out of the animals dropping them in their tracks. Animals of similar size shot with the .375 tend to run a very short distance and die on their feet. The difference is the hydrostatic shock caused by the speed of the wby. Does that mean the .300 is better than the .375? No. If I’m in brush taking shots under 200yds I’m taking the .375. If I’m in the wide open and want to make longer shots, I’m taking the 375. Worrying about which one instantly incapacitates is silly. Also, none of it matters if you make a bad shot.

Stopping a large charging animal is a totally different subject. A CNS shot is the only sure way to stop a charge. A bigger caliber that misses the CNS may be more likely to stun an animal enough to slow the charge long enough for you or one of your companions to get a more effective shot in.

That’s my 2 cents.

 

[CoElkHunter]

View attachment 424696
Ingredients
5000 N Taylor KO
500gr Woodleigh Hydro
1 m wound channel
100grams BS

Post controversial YouTube video, mix in some bored gun nuts, shit stir on high for 3-4 days, and bake in an AH approved baking dish or cook on the braai until thoroughly burnt.

Serve hot, or refrigerate in a thread for 10 years and reheat with a new post about how much a 458 win mag sucks. Enjoy.

Ha! Ha! That’s absolutely perfect! It’s what keeps AH forums humming along!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

It's the brain. It says put one paw or hoof in front of the other and off he goes until he can't any more, or it says just fold. Limbs react to messages and will do what they are told unless they can't because the muscles are destroyed and cant react, or the bone is shattered. Hit the brain, all stops.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Sorry, just to tie that up - inconsistency in the animals reaction to a hit from whatever calibre is a fact. It is because the brain is unique and decides to react differently.

 

[Ngonyama]

243w against a Buff.I think ill stay home and face another day

 

[Nhoro]

Terms like hydrostatic/ dead right there// energy dump/ bullets travelling in a column of vapourized water are all the domain of writers (fictional?? I will leave you to decide.) Most writers are men of words not integration and calculus and so played with numbers until they got the result they wanted and then published. Let's call it an illustration rather than science.

If you delve into scientific papers on the Internet, there is plenty of scientific research. There is a formula that considers all of the main parameters BUT it generally doesn't consider bullet expansion. Each bullet design will expand differently and as such would need a different formula. The equipment needed would be expensive and the main sponsor of the research is the military. Expanding bullets are useless to them - Geneva convention.

In theory, energy does the tissue damage that kills the animal. How that energy is used speaks now of efficiency. Energy is wasted in bullet expansion/ heat/ damage to non essential organs.

Higher velocity faces an increased resistance because tissue simply cannot get out of the way fast enough- resulting in heat and a larger wound channel in the beginning and reducing very rapidly. This means high velocity is in efficient.

Expansion of the bullet also wastes energy- it is more efficient to use a larger calibre - which starts out bigger.

Then add physiological factors- sick animal/ heart in the middle of pumping when hit/ what part of the brain is hit etc.

The only instant drop to the shot that I have seen was brain shots and if you have shot cattle for the abattoir, you will know they drop and kick even though the brain is gone- for a second or two.

 

[Frederik]

Just the thread I have been looking for

With the help of sponsorship I will go out in the field of Africa as they are the toughest critters around and test the theory. With my smallest caliber the 204 Ruger with 32gr Mono Expanding at 3900fps, 6.5 x 55 with 160gr Hornady Interlocks at 2400fps. The 375 H&H with 300gr Woodleigh HD bullets at 2460fps and finally the 458 Lott with 500gr Woodeligh PP bullets at 2175fps.

Funds can be transefred to my Nigerian banker I will ask him that a personal inhertitance message of a few million $$ be paid back as a thank you.

Just remember the bigger you sponsor the more I can shoot I know its hard work but somebody has to do it.

With that being said, seeing a few hundred heads of game being shot over the years the CNS system is the one that obviously drops an animal but what if that animal at the time of the shot had a heart full of blood same with the lungs? I'm sure you have all seen smaller game with hearts that have almost exploded. Then again game that has no idea of the hunter usually dies quicker and when game do know about the danger they usually take longer to die after the shot.

Anyway I'm still willing to work my butt off to get some real results and PM me for my Nigerian bankers info.

 

[WAB]

I’m not at all sure about knockdown power. The only time I’ve seen an animal picked up off it’s feet and thrown over backward was a pronghorn I shot at 50 yds with a .54 cal muzzleloader. However pronghorn are a big bag of adrenaline so who knows whether he was thrown or jumped.

I will say that I have a.375 H&H and a .458 Lott that I shoot equally well. Both are sub 1” guns. I have shot buffalo with both. Both get the job done but the difference on impact between the two is quite dramatic.

 

[Chago]

I watched this video and immediately was thinking, wait people actually think "knock down power is real". Then I started reading your comments.......

If knock down power meant anything you could shoot a buffalo in the ass and he should roll over, which everyone knows unless you are using a 120mm turret, that's not happening.

My idea of "knock down" is a animal dirt napping. Ie dropping on the spot. This happens via kinetic energy dump in the right place. I have seen guys dirt nap a deer with a 223, yet seen the same size deer run 1000 yards after being hit with a 300win mag.

A 338 Lapua Magnum using full metal jacket, would do far less damage to internal organs then a 30-30 with a proper expanding hunting bullet. Or "knock down power". The key thing to knocking down an animal is placement and bullet. So yes a larger caliber with larger bullets that expand nicely and dump that kinetic energy will give you a larger "miss zone" I suppose we can call it. But I know without a doubt, a 223 will "knockdown" every plains game in Africa including a Eland. But we don't do that as we don't want to be aiming for such a small target with so much room for error. In real life hunting scenarios. The DG crowd always extremely over power and size and that is to basically increase there "miss zone" as they may have charging shots, or other dangerous scenarios. And yes even some of these bullets in the ass would do such a kinetic dump it would do massive damage and potentially still get that leopard to roll over or drag there ass etc allowing for a second better placed shot. But this still isn't "knockdown power" its just a bigger kinetic dump (again assuming using the proper bullet) which gives you a bigger "miss zone". Archery hunting is seeing the same sensation with expandable broadheads now having 3" cutting zones as compared to the original fixed broad heads with 1".

But all that being said, without a immediate massive hemorrhage or taking down the nervous system. An animal will run then die running. Animals are not like humans who feel pain and the immediate reaction is to go down and assess the damage. Animals reaction is to run like hell then when your in a safe area, stop and assess the damage. If you did your job right it will likely die while on that run. But if you ever made a poor shot, you will always notice a bed a couple hundred yards away where they bedded and bled. If you waited long enough he should be dead there. If you didn't you would have bumped him again and you would have seen the blood bed.

 

[Ragman]

It's Ron Spomer. Anything he says (if I am in a patient enough frame of mind to listen to him) I take with a fistful of salt. As soon as he pulls out his ballistics charts I'm done. Animals can't read those.

 

[375Fox]

I have to wonder how differently this discussion would have gone had he not used the term knock down power and instead discussed energy transfer from a bullet into an animal.

 

[Randy Bo]

Knock Down Power
The only personal experience I can confidently relate to knock down power involves handguns and steel targets. My son and I occasionally shoot torso-shaped steel targets with a 1911 and a Glock 9mm. We use Winchester White-Box ammo in both. For the 9mm (115 grains, 1190 fps, energy=362 ft-lbs and momentum=19 lb-ft/sec) and for the .45 acp (230 grains, 835 fps, energy=356 ft-lbs and momentum=27 lb-ft/sec). For these two rounds the muzzle energy is essentially the same but, the .45 acp/230 grain combo enjoys a 42% increase in momentum. What my son and I have both observed is the .45 striking the targets with much more authority and, in some instances, the 9mm failing to knock the target down. I freely admit that this may have no correlation to knock down power, as it relates to shooting a live animal, but the results on steel is very noticeable and, in my opinion, undeniable. Therefore since the muzzle energy of both rounds is essentially the same, the difference in the way each round strikes the target must be attributed to the difference in momentum (42%).
DISCLAIMER: I always stand to be corrected.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Having started something I'm gonna throw my 2 pence (I'm British) in.

I hunt a LOT of muntjac in the UK as well as other deer. I have only had one run and even then not too far. I find if I drop their blood pressure sharpish they drop where hit. I have dont so with everything from a 223 to a 375 H&H. My go to rifle is my trusty 7x64 and as long as put that bullet in the engine room its goodnight.
Im going to Scotland next month on the Stags I'll let you guys know how I get on with the 7x64. Saying that the wonky horned belsbock I took in SA ran some then died. I guess every animal will react differently.

 

[norfolk shooter]

View attachment 424696
Ingredients
5000 N Taylor KO
500gr Woodleigh Hydro
1 m wound channel
100grams BS

Post controversial YouTube video, mix in some bored gun nuts, shit stir on high for 3-4 days, and bake in an AH approved baking dish or cook on the braai until thoroughly burnt.

Serve hot, or refrigerate in a thread for 10 years and reheat with a new post about how much a 458 win mag sucks. Enjoy.

I must say dear chap the idea of placing the thread in the fridge for some time and allowing it to mature is simply genius