Learner Professional Hunter fund

[Kevin Peacocke]

I can only speak of Zimbabwe but this may be true of South Africa and elsewhere. I am seeing an increase in the number of young people wanting to enter the PH and guides profession. This is good news as the PH population ages and there are willing souls to soak up all that expertise before it passes on. Here is the dilemma: these youngsters require excellent tools, in particular a reliable, accurate rifle and they can't afford one. So they end up with old dogs and sooner or later that bites.

I think that rifle should be a double in 375H&H, it ticks all the boxes (shorter range mostly, legal, easily shootable (many are young ladies), cheaper ammo, more available ammo, dot sight fittable). Hence my interest in the Chapuis Iphisi, but of course the excellent Heym 88b and 89b Light Frame fit the bill too (come on Chris, this product needs more punting!). Others I am sure may have suitable offerings.

So..... how about a fund to assist? Probably best one on one by willing helpers to avoid any problems of misappropriation of funds and all of that. Of course if SCI or DSC were willing to collect and administer these funds that side it would assist a lot. Here is how it may work:
1. The candidates must have passed their learner's licence (that's the academic part, excludes the chancers).
2. They apply, with their CV, personal profile and two references.
3. They get hooked up with a donor, or 'The Fund'.
4. Chapuis, Heym or whoever quotes a good deal (I heard Heym used to do this, may still).

Maybe just a pipe dream, what do you think?

 

[Desperatezulu]

I think that rifle should be a double in 375H&H, it ticks all the boxes (shorter range mostly, legal, easily shootable (many are young ladies), cheaper ammo, more available ammo, dot sight fittable). Hence my interest in the Chapuis Iphisi, but of course the excellent Heym 88b and 89b Light Frame fit the bill too (come on Chris, this product needs more punting!). Others I am sure may have suitable offerings.

Hi Kevin,
Nice idea and thought process. I do differ from you on the appropriate first DG rifle. I agree that from an ammo cost and availability aspect, a the 375 H&H makes most sense. But buying one in a double makes very little...

The appy PH will be tasked with shooting camp meat and bait much more than he will be shooting ele at close range. I know it's possible with a double but it's sub-optimal for this application, plus it's a way more expensive option than a working bolt gun, as you've touched on.

The 375 that the junior PH gets is destined to become a back-up or client gun in any case - the vast majority of DG PH's graduate to big bores as stopping rifles. The 375 in whatever guise is far from ideal as a stopper, as has been punted to death on this forum. So getting a 375 in a double makes even less sense.

In terms of budget, a Mauser-pattern bolt gun in 375 will be way cheaper, even after a bit of gunsmithing as needed (I'm thinking CZ550s which are still floating around, Win M70s and even Zastava's). For the price of an Iphisi, one could source 3-5 of the afore-mentioned models. If the thinking is to assist new PH's then a lower budget but adequate gun means more PHs can be supported for the same outlay. And with a tool that is more suited to their first 5 years of so of PHing.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

A bolt gun can also use any ammo, which may be leftovers from a client or what is on sale.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hi Kevin,
Nice idea and thought process. I do differ from you on the appropriate first DG rifle. I agree that from an ammo cost and availability aspect, a the 375 H&H makes most sense. But buying one in a double makes very little...

The appy PH will be tasked with shooting camp meat and bait much more than he will be shooting ele at close range. I know it's possible with a double but it's sub-optimal for this application, plus it's a way more expensive option than a working bolt gun, as you've touched on.

The 375 that the junior PH gets is destined to become a back-up or client gun in any case - the vast majority of DG PH's graduate to big bores as stopping rifles. The 375 in whatever guise is far from ideal as a stopper, as has been punted to death on this forum. So getting a 375 in a double makes even less sense.

In terms of budget, a Mauser-pattern bolt gun in 375 will be way cheaper, even after a bit of gunsmithing as needed (I'm thinking CZ550s which are still floating around, Win M70s and even Zastava's). For the price of an Iphisi, one could source 3-5 of the afore-mentioned models. If the thinking is to assist new PH's then a lower budget but adequate gun means more PHs can be supported for the same outlay. And with a tool that is more suited to their first 5 years of so of PHing.

I hear you DZ, but having seen so many of the old dog really rubbish bolt guns in these young learner's hands, I think they need a serious step up. Anything out of the box that then needs 'working on' is a non starter in my view. Who will do the work? Perhaps a really good bolt gun, like a Kimber Caprivi? You would know what a suitable brand would be better than I, but for me, and this whole exercise, unless it is a game changer from the current honestly inadequate situation it is a futile effort. Call it a good cause and lets assume there are funds, lets park budget thinking for now.

 

[Desperatezulu]

I hear you that the average starter DG gun for these PH's is junk. That doesn't disqualify a better quality bolt gun as being a step up that achieves adequacy. I still think a double is pushing it (makes me think of Marie Antoinette's alleged quote of "Let them eat cake") and it's less optimal than a bolt gun for an appy PH's use (more cost and less general purpose = a poor compromise IMO). Budget is always an issue, especially if you're proposing donations/sponsorship

Even if the double idea took wings, in 10 years time these guns will be approaching junk status too unless there is maintenance along the way - who is able and qualified to conduct double maintenance in Zim or any of the African countries? Ejector springs, firing pins, barrel separations and re-regulations? At what cost?
I do believe bolt actions are better understood and cheaper/simpler to maintain.

The administration and disbursement of proposed fund is going to require some careful thinking and execution to avoid freeloaders and/or accusations of misdeeds along the way (sadly).
With that degree of inherent organisation, it should be fairly straightforward to approach the SA importer of Zastava's or Winchester and arrange a group buy of 20-30 rifles (or whatever the appropriate number is) and book a suitable gunsmith to slick them up.

It may well be possible to get a bulk discount on both the procurement and the smithing (surely this is an opportunity for a junior gunsmith to get some proper miles under the belt on CRF Mauser-type actions, with the senior smith QCing everything?). Thereby creating a pool of weapons for qualifying PHs to access.
Interesting and noble concept, even if we differ a little on what the final product should be.

 

[uplander01]

I think its a pretty good idea, almost like a goodwill rifle pool for aspiring PH's. Some of the rifles I've seen being used by young guys makes me cringe. There are probably resources on this site to explore such a concept .......Mr Leoni???

 

[Flipper Dude]

It has been my intent, if I live long enough to make the decision, to give my custom 404J or my 458 Lott to a young Zim PH. Wouldn’t want to risk it on an appy, as they often don’t make the cut. I have hunted with several well established guys in Zim. that would be happy to recommend such a fella. Not sure on the logistics, but if it can be worked out, we will.

Hate the thought of my African rifles sitting somewhere in a grandkid‘s closet, and taken out once a year to wipe down. (Maybe)

I like the thought of my 404 or Lott working everyday in Africa. Gives me a warm fuzzy.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I have been accompanied upon three buffalo hunts by three PH's. All three had bolt guns, one a CZ 550 in 375 H&H that never fired in my presence, but he looked after it well. One a newer 416, I think Winchester, it failed twice. One where the rifle was a Hursqvarna, very old and turned out to be 9.3x62, so not even legal! Would any of these three PH's wanted to carry a double rifle instead? I will bet heavily on it.

 

[Tanks]

A fund can be better used for the final proficiency exam than a gun. The cost of the final exam where they set up a client camp is considerable even when multiple appys share the cost.

Also, by the time they get to that point all of them have a rifle of some sort they have used to shoot the required DG.

I agree with others that a bolt gun at this point in their career is a more economical approach. Don't forget that they also need a vehicle etc. if they are going to work as a PH. A double is a want for most young PHs, but what they need is a reliable firearm in a stopping caliber (that's not a .375) that fits their budget.

 

[Marc Ret]

Assuming they don't already, perhaps the manufacturers of DG firearms should have a little skin in the game.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Wouldn’t the .416 ruger African/Alaskan be a sensible option if a sustainable supply of ammunition could be located?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Wouldn’t the .416 ruger African/Alaskan be a sensible option if a sustainable supply of ammunition could be located?

I hear that the 375 H&H is preferred as the startout calibre because more can shoot it well.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Let’s talk criteria.
1.)What would qualifying criteria be? How “disadvantaged” is “disadvantaged” enough??
2.)Panel would consist of? I’m assuming those who contribute to the fund would select the panel?
3.)Which countries would be eligible. In my mind only SA and Zim applies?
4.)Would the fund be utilized as an advance? Could repayment similar to a uni loan be done within a 5 - 10 year period? (I would support this as it’ll instill a sense of responsibility, grit, determination if you will)
5.)I would assume that the only way this could work would have to be, if it was launched in conjunction with willing outfitters enabling potential ph’s to be absorbed into the system .
6.)A suggested minimum as stated above of a 5 year fixed employment would be required (as above) in the case of an advance.
.
.
In my mind discussing caliber is premature at best. Maybe there are far more important points to discuss with regards to this idea…

Thoughts?
My best always

 

[DaveL]

Whenever an 'appie' here in Zim asks me calibre recommendations I always suggest a heavy in the .400 calibre. The CZ550 in .416 Rigby or .458 Win Mag (get it 'Lotted') is a far better choice for a learner to start out with. I agree most start off with the venerable .375 but they nearly always trade them in for something heavier once they're established or have faced something ugly in the bush. For guiding purposes here in Zim I wouldn't recommend the .375.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Let’s talk criteria.
1.)What would qualifying criteria be? How “disadvantaged” is “disadvantaged” enough??
2.)Panel would consist of? I’m assuming those who contribute to the fund would select the panel?
3.)Which countries would be eligible. In my mind only SA and Zim applies?
4.)Would the fund be utilized as an advance? Could repayment similar to a uni loan be done within a 5 - 10 year period? (I would support this as it’ll instill a sense of responsibility, grit, determination if you will)
5.)I would assume that the only way this could work would have to be, if it was launched in conjunction with willing outfitters enabling potential ph’s to be absorbed into the system .
6.)A suggested minimum as stated above of a 5 year fixed employment would be required (as above) in the case of an advance.
.
.
Thoughts?
My best always

I am not sure of all the answers, but here are some responses:
1. I was thinking the qualifying criterion would be obtaining the Learners License, I don't know the equivalent in SA.
2. Panel would consist of the PGHA Chairman and the donor (SCI secretary for example)?
3. Zimbabwe, South Africa. I am not sure if there are equivalent associations in other countries in the region?
4. I like the idea you suggest. Maybe 7 years or so.
5. I think the learners may want to move around.
6. That may be too much to ask. If they pay the advance off then you can't really tie them down.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I hear that the 375 H&H is preferred as the startout calibre because more can shoot it well.

I understand where your coming from Kevin and your by far closer to the action than I , I was simply trying to put all the ideas mentioned together and the most economical rifle that fit the bill was the ruger. The one stumbling block is a supply of ammunition. I mentioned.416 because it seems from the above posts most phs quickly move away from a .375. I am sure @IvW could contribute to the conversation.

 

[275r7x57]

@Kevin Peacocke I understand your idea and passion for young PH’s, but have to respectfully disagree with the whole concept.

I am not against helping someone get a start in life, but there are already schools and apprenticeships for this. Everyone has to start somewhere. If you really want something in life and have a desire for it, you will work to obtain that goal. For the most part everything I have if life is because I worked for it, and was not handed it. The more you work for something yourself, the more appreciation you will have for it. Failure is not a bad thing. It is a learning experience.

I think the best way to help someone is to do it at a personal level. Not a fund or charity. For the most part a fund or a charity is a glorified welfare program. We have way to many funds, welfare, charities and programs. We are overloaded with this crap. I have witnessed this firsthand, within my own church and other organizations and programs.

My suggestion is if you know of someone in real need and have the ability to help them or make a difference and feel like you should, than do so. Helping someone is more than just money. It can be time spent with them, advice, money, tools of the trade and …

I may be an odd man out here, but that’s my thoughts.

Thanks
275

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@Kevin Peacocke I understand your idea and passion for young PH’s, but have to respectfully disagree with the whole concept.

I am not against helping someone get a start in life, but there are already schools and apprenticeships for this. Everyone has to start somewhere. If you really want something in life and have a desire for it, you will work to obtain that goal. For the most part everything I have if life is because I worked for it, and was not handed it. The more you work for something yourself, the more appreciation you will have for it. Failure is not a bad thing. It is a learning experience.

I think the best way to help someone is to do it at a personal level. Not a fund or charity. For the most part a fund or a charity is a glorified welfare program. We have way to many funds, welfare, charities and programs. We are overloaded with this crap. I have witnessed this firsthand, within my own church and other organizations and programs.

My suggestion is if you know of someone in real need and have the ability to help them or make a difference and feel like you should, than do so. Helping someone is more than just money. It can be time spent with them, advice, money, tools of the trade and …

I may be an odd man out here, but that’s my thoughts.

Thanks
275

Thanks for your thoughts 275, I fully agree that handouts are not helpful, I too grew up hard. The problem in Zimbabwe, as opposed to South Africa, is that new rifles are simply not available anyway, they would need to be bought in in a lot for these young folks to access.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Thank you all for your contributions, some good ideas emerging. Here is the summary:
1. A bolt rifle
2. The Ruger is probably the way to go,
3. Maybe 458 Lot
4. Rather than a fund per se, access to an imported batch of rifles that have been 'sorted'
5. Unit cost to be kept as low as possible.

 

[275r7x57]

Thanks for your thoughts 275, I fully agree that handouts are not helpful, I too grew up hard. The problem in Zimbabwe, as opposed to South Africa, is that new rifles are simply not available anyway, they would need to be bought in in a lot for these young folks to access.

Is there a second hand or used rifle market in Zimbabwe?