Is this really hunting?

[Scott Slough]

FYI

HuntHardSafaris, I think your original post that did not include the screenshots was sufficient to describe the situation and spark significant debate. I absolutely think it is an interesting debate and well worth AH discussing.

BUT, I do not think that posting the actual screen shots that include the name of the outfitter (who does not know that his hunting ethics are being disparaged and is possibly losing business without the chance to defend himself) and ESPECIALLY the name of the family who was on the hunt (who also do not get a chance to defend themselves) is appropriate. I would recommend that those screenshots be removed or names be blurred ... especially the family name and photos!

 

[TokkieM]

Scott,I had no intention to place the screenshots,but if you check further back several requests were made to name and shame the Outfitter involved,he is a member here on AH after all.

 

[Scott Slough]

I did miss those requests, so thanks for pointing that out to me ... I still disagree that they should be posted. Especially the name of the client. He may be a new hunter ... or may just have a different opinion about the ethical decisions that we all make. We aren't in agreement here on the site, but we all chose to participate and have the opportunity to be able to defend out statements.

By posting this client's name, we have gone from a debate among friends about an anonymous practice to a pretty harsh critique of a specific individual who doesn't even get a chance to defend themselves.

Thanks for listening.

 

[billc]

Guys I am not saying anyone who answered my question is wrong. I am looking at more then the answer to one post sometimes as people tend to say what they want on that one post but it does not stay true to other post they make. I do my best to not put down anyone way of hunting at all. I will not trash someone because I dont like it. I just found it funny how some who have certain ways they like to hunt found taking that kudu in that way could be nothing but looked as a hunting.

This not an attack towards tokkie but I will use his reply as my point. Taking that kudu that way when hunting buff was a hunt to him because how it happened. But if he was driving to the area saw the kudu got off the truck and took it well now it is not much of a hunt to him . But is that not taking advantage of the what the day gives you to some hunters. I myself would not tell anyone who took a kudu driving around they are not a hunter by doing it that way.

I myself will take any chance for any legal animal I can afford when out hunting. Africa is different compared to here in the states. Normally here you have one or two tags but may see 5 or 6 kinds of animals during a hunt. Are we better hunters because we hunt one animal at a time normally.

As for posting who the report is about will if we want to fix the problem sometimes you need to name names to fix things. Trashing people to hear ourselves talk does nothing to fix the problem. Now all those who think that outfitter was wrong they can email him and try to change things.

Again my replys are not to prove myself right or put down anyone else. They are saying think about how we talk to each other as hunters and how we judge others. We may just need all of us to keep are right to hunt one day. I really have no issue with anyone just trying to show how hard it is to make rules or call hunting one way right.

 

[JGRaider]

I do my best to not put down anyone way of hunting at all. I will not trash someone because I dont like it.

Do you consider it trashing someone when you accuse them of lying?

 

[Scott Slough]

As for posting who the report is about will if we want to fix the problem sometimes you need to name names to fix things. Trashing people to hear ourselves talk does nothing to fix the problem. Now all those who think that outfitter was wrong they can email him and try to change things.

I certainly didn't join AH to trash people! I joined to learn more about hunting Africa and to enjoy the virtual presence of folks who are addicted to this just like me.

 

[TokkieM]

 

[billc]

Lying may have been a bit strong of a word. Not saying all the reason why you posted something I guess is not lying. So sorry for using that to try and prove my point. I guess I just like to put it all out there when I post something not beat around the bush.

 

[slad68]

Ok.. If I may ask.... Not that I agree with any of this "fly and shoot" business.

What is the difference between driving on a farm in Limpopo and shoot from the back of a truck.

And sitting on a hill waiting for animals that are being chased all over the show by farm worker in the Free State.

 

[billc]

I certainly didn't join AH to trash people! I joined to learn more about hunting Africa and to enjoy the virtual presence of folks who are addicted to this just like me.

I got you and I did not mean you were trashing anyone. I was meaning if we are going to post this stuff and talk about it why not do something more and tell the guy who did it this is bad. I myself will not say a word but those that had the problem should speak up if they want there words to mean something.That just make sense to me but again I am way different on how I look at things.

 

[TokkieM]

Billc you may have misunderstood my interpretation or meaning. If you spotted the Kudu from a truck,got off made a effort at a stalk and got to within 100yards to make the shot,you did in fact hunt it. If however you spotted the Kudu remained on the truck and shot it,I would not call it hunting. That is my personal opinion. Not all of us want to sit on a hill early morning and spot a Kudu,take half a day to close on it and make the shot at 100 or 200 yards. I have taken Kudu at ranges that would not constitute fair chase in my book,but I would never call it hunting.

 

[Scott Slough]

HuntHardSafaris ... THANKS!

 

[billc]

Billc you may have misunderstood my interpretation or meaning. If you spotted the Kudu from a truck,got off made a effort at a stalk and got to within 100yards to make the shot,you did in fact hunt it. If however you spotted the Kudu remained on the truck and shot it,I would not call it hunting. That is my personal opinion. Not all of us want to sit on a hill early morning and spot a Kudu,take half a day to close on it and make the shot at 100 or 200 yards. I have taken Kudu at ranges that would not constitute fair chase in my book,but I would never call it hunting.

Ok I get it I did not take it like that when I read it. Then we are on the same page as i would say you get out stalk it then you are hunting.

 

[TokkieM]

Ok.. If I may ask.... Not that I agree with any of this "fly and shoot" business.

What is the difference between driving on a farm in Limpopo and shoot from the back of a truck.

And sitting on a hill waiting for animals that are being chased all over the show by farm worker in the Free State.

Bossie good point,we call it a driven shoot and we do not call the people who participate hunters,we call them shooters.I do driven hunts and at no stage do any fellows call themselves hunters either.

 

[TokkieM]

HuntHardSafaris ... THANKS!

Can't take the credit for the edit
Thank the good folk here on AH who moderate the posts

 

[BRICKBURN]

Ok.. If I may ask.... Not that I agree with any of this "fly and shoot" business.

What is the difference between driving on a farm in Limpopo and shoot from the back of a truck.

And sitting on a hill waiting for animals that are being chased all over the show by farm worker in the Free State.

I have been raised, and obviously many others have as well, in an environment where there are beliefs, and in some cases laws, that prohibit certain types of behaviour surrounding hunting.
One of these is guiding hunters to game using an aircraft.
It is not seen as fair chase to guide someone to an animal using an aircraft, where I am from. (also illegal here)

Shooting from the back of the truck is just another twist. At least you bumped into it yourself while you are driving. (also illegal here)

Laying in wait is a type of hunting. Pushing game is as old as the hills.
I ran into the Afrikaans word for this type of "driven hunt" and I can not remember it. Anybody??
I have participated in this type of hunt and found it to be very challenging to do my part and sneak up on the game when it got closer.
Certainly not your typical blast as they run by hunt. Although the farmer was wondering why I was not shooting more and said it usually requires at least 8 hunters to make it work properly.
Thankfully I was all alone.

 

[TokkieM]

You mean "Voorsit Jag" Brickburn?

 

[Bsums]

I do think we all need to be sure we aren't being too quick to condemn the outfitter or hunters. I do feel the use of aircraft in this scenario was wrong and I hope the outfitter/hunters understand where our criticism is coming from and can reflect. Besides the one usage of aircraft most of their hunting was from blinds which in my book is perfectly fine. They also had looked for the giraffe by just vehicle the day prior to using the aircraft. They used the aircraft to spot the herd but they did actually stalk it. On to the bad shooting of it, we can't really criticize him here as we all make bad shots and it sounds like besides the trouble with the giraffe the rest of his kills were good. I think they overall had a ethical safari but did make a bad decision. I also wouldn't place it all on the hunter as in the end the day the use of the aircraft was the Ph's call. The Ph also sets the tone for ethics in a country and hunting style many clients aren't familiar with. So if a Ph says something is ok/fine the hunter/client may think nothing about it. The hunter in this case may of never thought is this keeping the hunt ethical? Which should be the responsibility of the Ph to make sure everything is done in a legal and ethical manner. I think this was overall a successful/good family safari and the outfitter had a bad judgement call. It would be interesting to hear from the hunter/outfitter and their side of the story.

 

[TokkieM]

I do think we all need to be sure we aren't being too quick to condemn the outfitter or hunters. I do feel the use of aircraft in this scenario was wrong and I hope the outfitter/hunters understand where our criticism is coming from and can reflect. Besides the one usage of aircraft most of their hunting was from blinds which in my book is perfectly fine. They also had looked for the giraffe by just vehicle the day prior to using the aircraft. They used the aircraft to spot the herd but they did actually stalk it. On to the bad shooting of it, we can't really criticize him here as we all make bad shots and it sounds like besides the trouble with the giraffe the rest of his kills were good. I think they overall had a ethical safari but did make a bad decision. I also wouldn't place it all on the hunter as in the end the day the use of the aircraft was the Ph's call. The Ph also sets the tone for ethics in a country and hunting style many clients aren't familiar with. So if a Ph says something is ok/fine the hunter/client may think nothing about it. The hunter in this case may of never thought is this keeping the hunt ethical? Which should be the responsibility of the Ph to make sure everything is done in a legal and ethical manner. I think this was overall a successful/good family safari and the outfitter had a bad judgement call. It would be interesting to hear from the hunter/outfitter and their side of the story.

Don't think it could have been that hard to find the Giraffe,it is mentioned that they only flew 2 minutes before spotting it.

 

[Adrian]

I think it was very ill advised to post on social media the fact it took two arrows and then needed a rifle shot over a period of time.

As hunters, on a hunting forum, we can discuss and understand a poor shot because we've all been guilty at some point in our hunting lives.

On social media, the guy has left himself and the rest of us as hunters open to the usual bile spouted by the wildlife warriors and antis.

Couple that with the use of an aircraft and you have a recipe for a sh1t storm which can only gain momentum in the eyes of those against our pastime.

The nature of hunting dictates that a poor shot can and will be made at sometime but please don't be naive and point it out on a social media outlet. It will only be seen as 'torturing' an 'innocent' animal and we, as hunters have to suffer the consequences collectively.