Is it ok to give your PH a size wish list

[Buckdog]

i run a "high fence operation" 5500ha of high fence and see animals every year that I never knew were there!!!
never introduced a single kudu on Tallyho and average around 54" every year and actually its slowly increasing, have shot 2 x 60" kudu over the years. so your theory on high fence areas is way off!!!
maybe on 500ha of grassland sure.

regards

Sorry tally ho really an average of 54" kudu every yr on 5500ha, I would love to come put my official tape measure to everyone of those as I truly doubt that sir.
a bit of a stretch. You must sell swampland too. and you have 5500ha and you hunt it all the time, you run it care for it etc and you don't know the patterns and where the animals are?? cant buy that either got gray hair hunted all my life, taken at least 1 animal in every province RSA now. many properties, etc and each and every owner and his people knew what was what where etc, yes they had surprises but for the most part had the properties down. So did the scouts. even on low fence free range they kinda pretty much knew where to be looking, even in KZN Zulu land free range for big nyala in that thick shit they knew where to be looking for what. they had the 26' nyalas down by name and could kill at will. now the 28-30 were a diff bird!
how many sable and roan on your property let me guess none unless you stock them for a client and you would be buying them by the inch and you know it, I have been to the auctions, the captures, etc talked with the brokers, acting like animals aren't bought sold, stocked, captured, traded all the time in RSA is the dirty little secret you all deny.

 

[K-man]

It is an incredible Oribi.

I was going to bitch about the right horn not being worn down and not the same length.
Do you think I should have gotten a discount?!

Not for Rowland Ward!!!

 

[Gemsbok Gangsta]

Chasing the tape is OK in some incidences. I would love a Nyala 27 plus if obtainable on my next hunt. My last hunt was a great one.I took my first Kudu bull after a hunt that ended without a few years prior.He is a grand EC bull well under the magic 50... The stalk leading up to the shot was awesome,great ivory tips a beautiful mane and chocolate cape. It became apparent to me how cool this was when Marius declared “what a stalk”!!! His investment in this hunt was pure effort so I could obtain a long standing goal.. no tape needed

 

[HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS]

i do believe it is better for us pro’s to know exactly what the hunter is looking for its makes the planning for the hunt and selection of the area easier for the hunt, we all know that if a person have enough money anything is possible and there is an outfit somewhere that will take his money and deliver a result what ever it takes.

Please do not think that all outfits are delivering the game to the hunting area a week before the hunt as ordered by the hunters ,there are still good guys out there that will tell you that there is a gold medal kudu out there but it might take 2 weeks just to get an opportunity at that bull as he is free range in the kalahari on 20000ha

I agree with what tally-ho said on this tread , on the fenced areas we hunt we always discover trophies we never new was there.

Also the ph must be honest with the client in return, if the area cant produce a certain trophy at a certain size on his hunting area he must say so ,rather say realistically this is what you can expect on my area. Some areas just have better habitats for specific species and better genetics . As much as we as outfitters and Ph’s would like to think so we cannot offer every single trophy species high in the record book but can specialize in what is good on our areas.

Giving your ph a minimum standard is good thing as long as its in line with what realistically can be achieved on the area, i think it will motivate him to work a little harder, but the hunter must keep an open mind because some of the most amazing hunts we have had wasn’t always for longest horn bull in his prime but the old warrior that has been around for ages and have avoided predators and hunters for many years proving to be a much more challenging hunt.

 

[firehuntfish]

I have been to the auctions, the captures, etc talked with the brokers, acting like animals aren't bought sold, stocked, captured, traded all the time in RSA is the dirty little secret you all deny.

@Buckdog , in reference to your words above, so have I, but I fail to see how this a dirty little secret as you put it? Unfortunately, there are some operators offering hunts in RSA that are small properties running put & take, but your posts make it seem as if this the case with most outfits, and it certainly is not. You are painting with a very broad brush with that inference, which is both inaccurate and unfair in my opinion.

There are plenty of outfitters offering great hunting experiences on huge, contiguous properties with lots of naturally propagated herds of animals. With a little research, and the right questions, they are not to difficult to find. And, with naturally propagated herds on big properties, there is simply no way to inventory each and every animal by the inch. Now, I would certainly hope the outfitter had a very good idea of his trophy quality and where to find them. In my experiences, that means he is managing his animals well and is on top of the scouting which is an imperative tool to any successful outfitter, high, low, or no fence.... But, how does that infer that it is a hunt of a lesser quality or challenge?

BTW, beautiful stag in your avatar pic. Was that taken on an estate hunt or free-range?

 

[RogerHeintzman]

I always let it be known what my minimum wish is, but I'm not disappointed if some are less. I also ask if they can produce my wish list, if not I look else where.
My experience, The Kalahari in the North West Province and Limpopo Province will produce very good quality animals if your after size.
I've been labeled a Specialist Trophy hunter by some of the outfitters. So be it, my money is hard earned and want it spent wisely. I'm OK with coming home empty handed for there will be another trip. I've had outfitters make last minute connections with other owners to try and fulfill my wish but i have paid the difference if cost were more.
As they say, "To each their own".
Happy hunting and have fun.

 

[peras]

Certain areas just have better genetics for certain species than others. There are definitely certain species, even on fenced areas that will always offer individual animals that you have never seen before, not even on trailcams. Species that come to mind are especially bushbuck, kudu and nyala which tend to stick to thick cover and mountainous areas. When a property has natural water , for instance a spring running through a creek, these individuals find watering places where you will not have cameras set.
It is very important to communicate your expectations to your outfitter. If you dont you may arrive with expectations that cannot be met in a certain area. The more questions you ask the better.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

Sorry tally ho really an average of 54" kudu every yr on 5500ha, I would love to come put my official tape measure to everyone of those as I truly doubt that sir.
a bit of a stretch. You must sell swampland too. and you have 5500ha and you hunt it all the time, you run it care for it etc and you don't know the patterns and where the animals are?? cant buy that either got gray hair hunted all my life, taken at least 1 animal in every province RSA now. many properties, etc and each and every owner and his people knew what was what where etc, yes they had surprises but for the most part had the properties down. So did the scouts. even on low fence free range they kinda pretty much knew where to be looking, even in KZN Zulu land free range for big nyala in that thick shit they knew where to be looking for what. they had the 26' nyalas down by name and could kill at will. now the 28-30 were a diff bird!
how many sable and roan on your property let me guess none unless you stock them for a client and you would be buying them by the inch and you know it, I have been to the auctions, the captures, etc talked with the brokers, acting like animals aren't bought sold, stocked, captured, traded all the time in RSA is the dirty little secret you all deny.

Really????
I guess you live on tallyho and know everything??
I don’t bullshit and I don’t bullshit my clients either
I also know how to measure a trophy and I’m guessing my tape would read exactly the same as yours
Yes there is a vibrant game industry in SA but that’s not to say all outfits run through these agents and auctions and a lot run there areas well don’t overhunt or overstock and try and be as natural as possible
I have free roaming herds of sable and roan for more than 10 years now there are at least 50 of each and more than 100 Buffalo all free roaming

Obviously certain species prefer certain areas and habitats and so you concentrate hunting for a Species in a certain terrain....obvious. But on 5500ha there are lots of various thickets many open areas some rocky outcrops etc etc

Sounds like you know all of South Africa and every farm and every outfitter by name since you hunted at least once in every province

But it sounds like you hunted with real gems
Running “real” Hunting operations

Well done

Kind regards

 

[IvW]

As a PH I always discuss with clients what their expectations are on their specific hunt. I also find out what their main trophy animals are.

I am very upfront and honest when discussing these expectations. As mentioned certain species do better in certain areas.

I will then go out of my way to obtain the priority trophies for the client but will definitely brief him on what sizes he can expect in the area we will be hunting.

The hunt itself as well as the character of the trophy is most of the times the best hunts.

I have on occasion had clients decline trophies I recommended they take which they then declined. They then asked me to find the same trophy again as they felt they should have listened and taken the shot. Unfortunately proper hunting is not shopping and most of the times these types of issues do not work out for the better.

On the other hand I have had many clients who trust my judgement and take the trophies that have been suggested, inevitable they end up being very happy and more often than not have many trophies that will make the "book".

Whatever you do, please DO NOT put the tape ahead of the enjoyment of the hunt, enjoy Africa while you are here. Be realistic in your expectations and have fun.

Expecting as a first time client to shoot a 60" kudu in the EC or a 42" Gemsbuck bull in KZN is, well possible, but wishful thinking at it's best.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Unfortunately proper hunting is not shopping

If we ever cross paths there or here, first beer is on me.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Whatever you do, please DO NOT put the tape ahead of the enjoyment of the hunt, enjoy Africa while you are here. Be realistic in your expectations and have fun.

And the second.

 

[peras]

And the second.

On me! Give that man a Bells!

 

[buck wild]

Ok- I'll jump is and throw a slightly different angle to the "tape measurement" argument and one that might also support a few of the high fence conspiracies.
On my very first safari, I unfortunately went with a large group. At the time I signed up, it sounded like a grand plan.... In short, because 2-3 of us in this 14 hunter party group were actually hunters, we were relatively successful on a farm that obviously had lots of hunting pressure. The animals were very skittish and seeing them for longer then 5 seconds was rare. As such, the other less experienced guys were not having a very good hunt. Not being my first rodeo on a high pressure place, I learned to take what was given and did so. But here is where things got interesting. As our days winded down and the complaining at the campfire each night got more vocal (that was fun), the outfitter began taking the other guys out to various other properties where they became quite a bit more "successful" and then the kicker to it all, at least for me, the animals were of much better quality. BTW we all paid the same prices. I assumed the outfitter made more money from animals killed on his home place and as such tried to keep us on it as long as possible. I'm quite sure he made less money on the animals he had to contract out on with the other places so it was to his benefit that the good hunters stayed on his home place.
I learned two things- being the better hunter only got me less quality and not speaking up resulted in a bad experience on my end. I'm sure there were other lessons in there also Should I have been gratified that although my animals were less quality, that I was the better hunter thus kudos to me?? I can tell you that bit of justice didn't sooth over my other feelings.
I'm not sure what the point of my experience is- it started as a great thought when I began typing. Carry on

I bet the OP wasn't expecting this debate LOL

 

[Royal27]

No it is never relevant or silly when some more truth comes out about other parts of Africa. I am very glad some people do it in other parts but lets not kid ourselves and think it is done for any other reason other then to make money at sometime.


Once again thread got off topic. I would tell anyone though to ask question about sizes of animals you may want to hunt. It is another good gauge to use to see if the outfitter is on the up and up. To big of promises should make you think. Not sure why the stuff got split up but some more is in above quoted area to read.

 

[Britt Beck]

I would as long as your expectations are reasonable. But like stated before. Don't let the tape measure decide your hunt.

 

[IvW]

I know those guys only do that in wild Africa to help nature not make money. They only hunt in SA to make money all other places do it out of the kindness of there heart.

I lost you here....

 

[billc]

I lost you here....

My point was if anyone in SA puts animals on a place that will be hunted so many like to say they only do it for the money. Not everyone but plenty like to talk SA down. When these is done in other countries it is normally never talked about or Guys like to think they only do it to help areas recover never because it will make them money in the end.

I have never been one to tell people places in SA do not sometimes add animals to a place and yes they get hunted. Then we have people who say all of SA is just stocked animals and it gets old. I don't think it is wrong any place if it helps in the end. The truth is a lot of Africa was hurting bad with lack of animals years ago. Thanks to outfitters and hunters it has changed now and for the better. All because animals were relocated or raised and released in areas that needed help and that happen not only in SA.

If there is money to be made someone will taken advantage and make the most they can. To say all or even most do it is just wrong in my eyes.

 

[jeff]

Well managed farms in SA often put new breeder bulls in to get diversified genetics and new genes.

 

[firehuntfish]

Well managed farms in SA often put new breeder bulls in to get diversified genetics and new genes.

To elaborate on your statement Jeff, introducing new genetics is an integral tool vital to any serious game management program. But, game management under high fence is often confused or mistakenly associated with the practice of put & take which is not real hunting in my opinion, and should never be portrayed as such.... Inferences have been made here that they are one in the same, which is both ridiculous and offensive to outfitters and property owners in RSA doing it the right way thus providing fantastic hunting experiences that are affordable safari options for the vast majority of average hunters who otherwise would only dream of experiencing Africa.

I don't want to start another seemingly endless debate on high fence versus free range hunting options in Africa which has already been done here on this and every other hunting forum ad nauseam. Yet, I feel it is necessary to point out the distinction to lots of prospective first-time safari hunters reading this who may not understand the differences between a put & take operation and a large, strictly managed piece of hunting property that regularly introduces new breeders to enhance the genetic qualities of their animal herds. This, along with other sound management practices including supplemental feeding, adding minerals, creating water sources, and culling are all part of managing healthy self-propagated populations of a great many species. I challenge anyone to come with me on a spot & stalk bow hunt on our 6,000 acre (smallest) bow-only concessions and try to "shop" hunt... They would be both humbled and enlightened pretty quickly.

 

[Foxi]

I only told my Ph's ,that I dont want to shoot in the first days.
Exeptions proofes the rules.
I told them also (politely and calm), what I don't want to shoot ( and they had to accept it).
On my last buff hunt I said ,lets try to get one with 40" up;the one I shot on the penultimate day was far from 40 inches.But old like the world and I was ( and I am) very happy with it.

If I gave them a list of sizes,I feel like I'm trying to decorate a home.
I want to hunt a good trophy and I work for it,the more beautiful when the trophy is old and strong.
The more often you hunt in Africa, the more critical and demanding you become.
Carpe diem
Foxi

@ Tally Ho -I'm on your side.
A mature buff is a buff,equal 36" or42"