Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

[Hornedfrogbbq]

You made a comment without reading the thread and I’ll assume without watching the video. That is the problem I see with this debate. No one is criticizing choices in this thread. It’s remained civil. But if you don’t know the practices that occur are you really making a choice? Everyone knows what goes into whitetail hunting high fence. It isn’t disguised. There are many attempts to hide and downplay the practices in South Africa. He states in interview he’ll get death threats for openly saying some of what he says. There are properties that operate like his. There are properties managed on sustainable quotas. There is a lot in between. My money will go to the individuals managing for sustainable quotas not the put and take model. A person goes on their first South African safari and enjoyed the experience to find out after it was a put and take trophy (sable for example) that spent 6 months on property. What do they think now? People should have the honest information to make the best decisions for themselves.

Also it’s not necessarily about the property size. It’s about the number of hunters put through. I’d rather hunt 10,000 acres with 10 hunters per year than 50,000 acres with 10 hunters per week for 6 months.

I did watch the full video. I wasn't surprised at all. The stories and your hunting knowledge make it impossible to not know however, as he states in the video, the PH and outfit should be up front about it.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

Maybe better to not think about it after you’ve made decision. But asking how many hunters they take each year, how many properties they hunt and for now how long, do other outfitters hunt same properties, etc before you book can give a lot of insight into an outfitter. And if they put YouTube videos up of only buffalo bull or only sable bull herds that’s a good indication of put and take practices as well. I’d hope many would be fully honest upfront but I know many are careless with truth because competition is high. If a hunter doesn’t care that’s their choice, but they should know what getting into.

100%

 

[HankBuck]

I never said antelopes, there are many animals which are not antelopes, which will not be contained by a fence.

Baboon, bushpig, caracal, Genet, Hyaenas ...

@Nyati - You forgot BIRDS, yeah, flying birds behind a fence ? And Kangaroo “High hopping” over the Fence. No one spends the money & effort on a High Fence (and maintaining it) Unless that Fence works well - damn near perfect - to keep the animals they profit from INSIDE. Hunt high fence or don’t - that is an individual's choice….but it is —what it is “A barrier” to Free Range and makes a big difference. If it wasn’t critical to the success & profitability of the Operator. - they wouldn’t use it. Talking about some Monkey or Baboon that gets out of it — is good Humor.

 

[HankBuck]

Another monkey wrench in the pie, we have to remember that every pheasant, Hungarian partridge and chucker ever shot in North America are the descendants of captive birds that came over on a ship. For which I’m grateful because they are so damned fun to hunt and eat.

@Hunt anything - the reason Pheasant were successfully transplanted into the U.S with “minimal” effort —- they released LIVE CAPTURE WILD BIRDS ——Not generation after generation of PEN Raised stock. Today, releasing a Pheasant and expecting it to survive is like letting your Husky go off and expect it to become a WOLF

 

[Hunt anything]

@Hunt anything - the reason Pheasant were successfully transplanted into the U.S with “minimal” effort —- they released LIVE CAPTURE WILD BIRDS ——Not generation after generation of PEN Raised stock. Today, releasing a Pheasant and expecting it to survive is like letting your Husky go off and expect it to become a WOLF

This true, same with whitetail deer in many places in the south. I was just comparing pheasant to @grand veneur comments about Cape buffalo being relocated out of herds from South African National parks into Mozambique. I did find some information about buff being released in some areas mainly Gorhangosa NP but not in any of the big hunting Coutadas like the Niassa or the ares around Marromeu buffalo reserve.

 

[Qc_BearHunter]

Me and a friend are thinking about going back to Africa in 2027. I contacted the PH I had in 2022, knowing that he was now on his own. I know this guy enough to know his vision of what a proper hunting operation should be. He told me he now have the exclusivity of a 10 000 hectares (100 square km, 38,6 square miles, 24 710 acres) concession in one block.

There's different species there, totaling around 6500-7000 head of games. His place are limited as he book few hunters there per year. His price list reflect the quality: No packages, because he don't want to shoot "average" animals just to fill a list, but exclusively daily fees of 440$/day and trophy fees. Hunting a buffalo there would probably be a really interesting experience, but the total for a 10 days hunt in dollars of 2025 is 16 400$. A lot more than all the buffalo packages we see advertised. There's probably a reason.

 

[HookMeUpII]

@Hunt anything - the reason Pheasant were successfully transplanted into the U.S with “minimal” effort —- they released LIVE CAPTURE WILD BIRDS ——Not generation after generation of PEN Raised stock. Today, releasing a Pheasant and expecting it to survive is like letting your Husky go off and expect it to become a WOLF

The bird thing is a whole other story, but sets up for a good comparison to RSA.

In NJ, we don't have actual wild mallards. All the mallards seen here are from game farms stocked over the years. The decent genetics survive year after year. It's a genetic pool that's been around since the 1940's if I'm not mistaken. The whole Atlantic flyway is devoid of true wild mallards other than the strays that come from the Mississippi flyway. But with that being said, good luck putting a limit in on mallards here. It's a challenge. The huntable ones typically favor isolated pockets and move in waves.

We actually have semi-true wild pheasants here as well. Actual self-sustaining populations. I saw one two years ago, duck hunting. Whole different animal. Lean, less stocky and fat, real cagey. Not the overfed porkers that take 10 seconds to get up that they raise in the game farms. They live in the meadowlands literally 4 miles from NYC. They were apparently stocked in the late 1800's and never left.

The same sort of situation goes for Africa, from what I can see. The sable that sits there for 30 seconds and looks at you on the safari truck is the same as the fat overfed pheasant. The blue wildebeest that gives you the slip for 3 hours and takes you on a 2 mile stalk is the Atlantic flyway mallard that you can never seem to find.

Granted, for birds, fences need not apply.

Having been to RSA I don't think it's fair for me to say what's right or wrong. I hunted 4 different properties there. Everything from what seemed like quite the put and take, to my PH's property that he only personally hunts on and is all self-sustaining populations.

Size, how the outfitter operates, and your goals should all be discussed prior to going.

 

[DieJager]

You might like this. I thought this was one of best podcasts I’ve ever listened. I listened to this podcast a while ago so I can remember exact details. He however has a very different perspective than what was in the video I posted at start of this thread. I think you have choice high volume low cost or lower volume and high cost. All farms add genetics. The fence makes it necessary unfortunately, but the put and take or sustainable harvest model is a choice.

Definitely a good podcast. I've listened the first part of it not yet finished but this I a guy you want to hunt with. Good perspective on conservation.