Interesting interview on game farming and Put and Take

[Mtn_Infantry]

45 000 USD for a buffalo in a ranch in Texas? You can go in the most remote and wild, unfenced place in Africa for this price and have enough money left for taxidermy.

Yes but the busy executive can’t leave Friday after work, and be back in the office on Monday with a Cape Buffalo mount on his wall at home in under a year telling everyone how it looked at him like it owed him money and charged …..

 

[Hookboy88]

I highly disagree with this. This is often brought up to downplay fencing, but the high grass on the side of highway outside fence compared to barren ground inside fence during a drought tells the truth to me. You only see warthogs eating it while other game is behind the fence. Maybe a few eland bulls and big kudu bulls decide to escape or an impala occasionally walks through an opening in the wires, but a well maintained high fence will contain 99% of the antelopes. Landowners wouldn’t invest in game otherwise.

I am not extremely experienced in RSA hunting but would also include Bushbuck as an animal that is not kept inside a fence.

 

[mrpoindexter]

I would disagree with this statement ^^. I think bushbuck are not able to leap an 8' tall fence and I don't really see them as proficient diggers that can get underneath them. There might be an odd one that somehow escapes, but I suspect that is a rare occurrence.

 

[375Fox]

I would disagree with this statement ^^. I think bushbuck are not able to leap an 8' tall fence and I don't really see them as proficient diggers that can get underneath them. There might be an odd one that somehow escapes, but I suspect that is a rare occurrence.

They use warthog holes underneath fence. The fence still holds them in for most part but given time some will move into adjacent properties.

 

[mrpoindexter]

Yes but the busy executive can’t leave Friday after work, and be back in the office on Monday with a Cape Buffalo mount on his wall at home in under a year telling everyone how it looked at him like it owed him money and charged …..

Well, I don't expect anybody to head to Africa for a 1 day hunt, but most people have some vacation time they can take. I am also an executive, but I will hunt Africa over Texas every chance I get. Eventually I will get to Texas for something, but there isn't much allure to me there.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Well, I don't expect anybody to head to Africa for a 1 day hunt, but most people have some vacation time they can take. I am also an executive, but I will hunt Africa over Texas every chance I get. Eventually I will get to Texas for something, but there isn't much allure to me there.

You’re missing the point of my ellipses … I guess my hints of sarcasm weren’t conveyed.

To better explain; I personally know multiple people who’ve shot large exotic animals in Texas with the intention of leading everyone to believe they went on an extraordinary safari in Africa, a remote back country hunt, or epic international trip. I’ve actually met one person who showed me photos and told me the “story” of their Elk Hunt and where it was. I played dumb and inquired as to how long they’d been applying for that once in a lifetime tag (which they didn’t know) or when they bought that governors tag, why the terrain in the photos looked so different than it does in real life. At first they doubled down but eventually came clean. The excuse I got was they didn’t have the time to hunt like that due to their busy work schedule, couldn’t wait to draw the tag, and none of their friends were the wiser. Not saying that’s everyone but there are some out there who just want that animal to look cooler than everyone else in their circle and don’t care how they get it or what it costs.

Hunting in Africa is a little different than here in North America but similar in someways. You can’t shoot 350-400” bull elk, or 180” deer anywhere for the same cost as a spike (there are exceptions). The best duck hunting land is locked up and gets passed down after death. To get a crack at trophy animals you’re going to pay for the opportunity (high fence or landowner vouchers) IF you don’t want to wait years to try and draw a tag. The best hunting experience is often remote and isolated (like in Africa) and comes at an additional cost. Extra logistics and long travel costs help contribute to this. Wild, remote, free range areas typically see less pressure and that too adds an extra cost to generate similar levels of income. The better the trophy quality (in free range areas) the higher the demand and the lower the number of animals hunted to maintain that quality. Again this adds cost.

I have nothing against hunting in South Africa. I’ve done it many times and will do it in the future, however I have certain requirements I like to meet and each hunt further refines them. South Africa and hunting as described in that video is an excellent gateway drug into African Hunting. It has its place, and offers the adventure for all price ranges and budgets. What I disagree with is the outfitters that lie or try to hide the fact that they’re supplementing their game herds via breeding operations. I have nothing against anyone who wants to hunt a put and take operation, I won’t judge them, but I can assure you their experience will be different than if they’d hunted somewhere like Blaaukrantz (referenced in video), CV Safaris, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, or Zambia.

 

[revturbo9967]

You’re missing the point of my ellipses … I guess my hints of sarcasm weren’t conveyed.

To better explain; I personally know multiple people who’ve shot large exotic animals in Texas with the intention of leading everyone to believe they went on an extraordinary safari in Africa, a remote back country hunt, or epic international trip. I’ve actually met one person who showed me photos and told me the “story” of their Elk Hunt and where it was. I played dumb and inquired as to how long they’d been applying for that once in a lifetime tag (which they didn’t know) or when they bought that governors tag, why the terrain in the photos looked so different than it does in real life.

I truly believe this same story gets told from many hunters that go to SA. A fellow at my gun club started chatting me up once and started laying down his Africa experience and how amazing the hunting is there. He went on to talk about his buffalo and sable hunt and how they tracked the buffalo for days. I asked which country and he said SA , and I said that’s great, I’ve been to Zimbabwe myself and started showing him some pictures on my phone. I didn’t play dumb so to speak, I just let him do the talking first. He got quiet real fast, and went back to his bench, almost awkwardly.

Africa is still relatively exotic for hunting and not as understood as say western hunting in the US or typical whitetail hunting. SA gives a relatively easy escape to bag a bunch of animals for the wall and tell a wild story without anyone able to challenge or question it. That’s why I think it’s so popular. Easy to get satisfaction vs actually hunting.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

Group hug?

I haven't read all the replies and pages but this type of hunting is done all over Texas (and probably other states). The freakish whitetails that are being raised, same with elk and other species, let alone the African game that has been imported...all done here in volume.

I am honestly surprised there aren't more dangerous game imported and breeding programs started in the states.

It isn't my cup of tea to hunt small high fenced areas but i would submit something over 10,000 or 20,000 acres is going to have fairly wild game, especially if it has lived in those pastures for years. But then again, i also don't comment on camo choices, your wife's rear end or the car you drive.

My Libertarian leanings...to each their own.

 

[Hunt anything]

Don’t be fooled into thinking put and take pheasant hunts are all advertised as such for the same reasons. No property in the Midwest is going to sustain hunting party after party limiting out week after week without stocking. They just won’t admit it and they won’t have holding pens about to give it away but I know for a fact many get thousands of birds released onto them. My friend hauls thousands every year to all the famous pheasant states and lodges from the small “we’re just a family farm” types to very expensive luxury lodges.
We hunted farms of friends and if we showed up after the holidays when they had family in shooting for a week, it was slim pickings indeed. But they would show us the pictures of the piles of birds from two weeks back.
My buddy loves to ask “how many fellas you think drive two days to get to the Dakotas to shoot wild birds when in fact they are shooting birds pen raised in Carolina?”

Another monkey wrench in the pie, we have to remember that every pheasant, Hungarian partridge and chucker ever shot in North America are the descendants of captive birds that came over on a ship. For which I’m grateful because they are so damned fun to hunt and eat.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I truly believe this same story gets told from many hunters that go to SA. A fellow at my gun club started chatting me up once and started laying down his Africa experience and how amazing the hunting is there. He went on to talk about his buffalo and sable hunt and how they tracked the buffalo for days. I asked which country and he said SA , and I said that’s great, I’ve been to Zimbabwe myself and started showing him some pictures on my phone. I didn’t play dumb so to speak, I just let him do the talking first. He got quiet real fast, and went back to his bench, almost awkwardly.

Africa is still relatively exotic for hunting and not as understood as say western hunting in the US or typical whitetail hunting. SA gives a relatively easy escape to bag a bunch of animals for the wall and tell a wild story without anyone able to challenge or question it. That’s why I think it’s so popular. Easy to get satisfaction vs actually hunting.

Small point of contention with the last sentence... I live and hunt in SW Alaska - moose, bears, caribou. My 2 trips to South Africa with the outfitter I chose was very much "actually hunting"; I have a pretty decent background to know what that looks and feels like.

"It isn't my cup of tea to hunt small high fenced areas but i would submit something over 10,000 or 20,000 acres is going to have fairly wild game, especially if it has lived in those pastures for years. But then again, i also don't comment on camo choices, your wife's rear end or the car you drive."

Agreed on property size and thanks for the laugh. KUIU and King's, currently single, and a Ford F150...

 

[revturbo9967]

Small point of contention with the last sentence... I live and hunt in SW Alaska - moose, bears, caribou. My 2 trips to South Africa with the outfitter I chose was very much "actually hunting"; I have a pretty decent background to know what that looks and feels like.

"It isn't my cup of tea to hunt small high fenced areas but i would submit something over 10,000 or 20,000 acres is going to have fairly wild game, especially if it has lived in those pastures for years. But then again, i also don't comment on camo choices, your wife's rear end or the car you drive."

Agreed on property size and thanks for the laugh. KUIU and King's, currently single, and a Ford F150...

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that you can’t have a quality hunt in SA. I’m saying there are a whole lot of individuals who call themselves hunters who like to just shoot things rather than seek out an adventure. South Africa’s model allows for an instant ego boost which many like to embellish.

I do not understand the draw to SA over free range areas.

 

[mark-hunter]

but I can assure you their experience will be different than if they’d hunted somewhere like Blaaukrantz (referenced in video), CV Safaris, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, or Zambia.

The price is signifcantly different, and that is why wild areas will never have not even close number of visitors. 99% of interested hunters will never visit wild hunting areas due to budget constraints

Next, game quotas in wild areas are much more limited, so number of trophies exported will never come even close to south african export.
But exactly for this reason South Africa has a great place in Safari industry, to be affordable for all classes of hunters.
In last 100 of years we as a hunting community lost about 50% of huntable countries in Africa (and wild areas, we lost even more. Becasue even in huntable country hunting areas are in limited numbers and those countries are not "full country" huntable)
So, I think that if this trend continues, very soon, in next 100 years, we might easily remain with game farms to hunt only. (and international regulation wise - maybe)
Other value of game farming is possibility of reintroduction of endangered species to game depleted areas in the future, or even to national parks.

 

[revturbo9967]

The price is signifcantly different, and that is why wild areas will never have not even close number of visitors. 99% of interested hunters will never visit wild hunting areas due to budget constraints

Next, game quotas in wild areas are much more limited, so number of trophies exported will never come even close to south african export.
But exactly for this reason South Africa has a great place in Safari industry, to be affordable for all classes of hunters.
In last 100 of years we as a hunting community lost about 50% of huntable countries in Africa (and wild areas, we lost even more. Becasue even in huntable country hunting areas are in limited numbers and those countries are not "full country" huntable)
So, I think that if this trend continues, very soon, in next 100 years, we might easily remain with game farms to hunt only. (and international regulation wise - maybe)
Other value of game farming is possibility of reintroduction of endangered species to game depleted areas in the future, or even to national parks.

The price difference for plains game in Namibia in free range areas are the same as in SA , same goes for a 7 day buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe vs a reputable outfit in SA. I think it has far more to do with the risk vs reward mindset. I see members here go 3, 4 , 5 times to SA and in the same sentence say a wild area is too expensive.

 

[375Fox]

The price is signifcantly different, and that is why wild areas will never have not even close number of visitors. 99% of interested hunters will never visit wild hunting areas due to budget constraints

Next, game quotas in wild areas are much more limited, so number of trophies exported will never come even close to south african export.
But exactly for this reason South Africa has a great place in Safari industry, to be affordable for all classes of hunters.
In last 100 of years we as a hunting community lost about 50% of huntable countries in Africa (and wild areas, we lost even more. Becasue even in huntable country hunting areas are in limited numbers and those countries are not "full country" huntable)
So, I think that if this trend continues, very soon, in next 100 years, we might easily remain with game farms to hunt only. (and international regulation wise - maybe)
Other value of game farming is possibility of reintroduction of endangered species to game depleted areas in the future, or even to national parks.

Comparing game farms to dangerous game concessions the price is significantly different. Comparing high volume put and take game farms to low volume or game farms managed on a sustainable quotas the price isn’t that much different. I see nothing wrong hunting on game farms managed on sustainable quotas. It’s a positive for conservation. Because blaaukrantz safaris was mentioned in video as a “purist” that hunts on sustainable quotas. Here is their pricing for comparison.

Hunting Packages | Blaauwkrantz Safaris Hunting

www.blaauwkrantz.com

 

[375Fox]

Group hug?

I haven't read all the replies and pages but this type of hunting is done all over Texas (and probably other states). The freakish whitetails that are being raised, same with elk and other species, let alone the African game that has been imported...all done here in volume.

I am honestly surprised there aren't more dangerous game imported and breeding programs started in the states.

It isn't my cup of tea to hunt small high fenced areas but i would submit something over 10,000 or 20,000 acres is going to have fairly wild game, especially if it has lived in those pastures for years. But then again, i also don't comment on camo choices, your wife's rear end or the car you drive.

My Libertarian leanings...to each their own.

You made a comment without reading the thread and I’ll assume without watching the video. That is the problem I see with this debate. No one is criticizing choices in this thread. It’s remained civil. But if you don’t know the practices that occur are you really making a choice? Everyone knows what goes into whitetail hunting high fence. It isn’t disguised. There are many attempts to hide and downplay the practices in South Africa. He states in interview he’ll get death threats for openly saying some of what he says. There are properties that operate like his. There are properties managed on sustainable quotas. There is a lot in between. My money will go to the individuals managing for sustainable quotas not the put and take model. A person goes on their first South African safari and enjoyed the experience to find out after it was a put and take trophy (sable for example) that spent 6 months on property. What do they think now? People should have the honest information to make the best decisions for themselves.

Also it’s not necessarily about the property size. It’s about the number of hunters put through. I’d rather hunt 10,000 acres with 10 hunters per year than 50,000 acres with 10 hunters per week for 6 months.

 

[mark-hunter]

I see nothing wrong hunting on game farms managed on sustainable quotas

In theory yes.
Practically, the problem is this.
We as foreign hunters generally have no idea and way to know what is hunted on sustainable quotas, or what is hunted on put and take system.

Lets say you have a farm 10.000 hectars (24.000 Acres)
15 species.

How many trophies can be taken on self sustainable quotas?
How many trophies are actually taken per year?
The difference (if any) is put and take.
We cannot know this by our research. We depend on trusting outfitters, and so we enter the grey zone. Better not to think about it.

 

[375Fox]

In theory yes.
Practically, the problem is this.
We as foreign hunters generally have no idea and way to know what is hunted on sustainable quotas, or what is hunted on put and take system.

Lets say you have a farm 10.000 hectars (24.000 Acres)
15 species.

How many trophies can be taken on self sustainable quotas?
How many trophies are actually taken per year?
The difference (if any) is put and take.
We cannot know this by our research. We depend on trusting outfitters, and so we enter the grey zone. Better not to think about it.

Maybe better to not think about it after you’ve made decision. But asking how many hunters they take each year, how many properties they hunt and for now how long, do other outfitters hunt same properties, etc before you book can give a lot of insight into an outfitter. And if they put YouTube videos up of only buffalo bull or only sable bull herds that’s a good indication of put and take practices as well. I’d hope many would be fully honest upfront but I know many are careless with truth because competition is high. If a hunter doesn’t care that’s their choice, but they should know what getting into.

 

[Hunt anything]

In theory yes.
Practically, the problem is this.
We as foreign hunters generally have no idea and way to know what is hunted on sustainable quotas, or what is hunted on put and take system.

Lets say you have a farm 10.000 hectars (24.000 Acres)
15 species.

How many trophies can be taken on self sustainable quotas?
How many trophies are actually taken per year?
The difference (if any) is put and take.
We cannot know this by our research. We depend on trusting outfitters, and so we enter the grey zone. Better not to think about it.

This is anecdotal, the farm that I shot a roan on several years ago was around 17,000 acres. They had what looked like to me a thriving herd of roan and sable. I can’t remember the number of sable they would take a year but the roan quota was 2 bulls per year. We saw a good mix of mature bulls, cows, calves and young bulls .
The farm appeared to be well managed and all species had the same mix.
I believe this outfitter charged a fairly premium price to keep the off take down and maintain healthy populations plus make a profit. He did acknowledge that he did buy breading stock when he was getting started and I neglected to ask how often he felt like he needed a shot of new genetics in his herds.

 

[Red Leg]

This is anecdotal, the farm that I shot a roan on several years ago was around 17,000 acres. They had what looked like to me a thriving herd of roan and sable. I can’t remember the number of sable they would take a year but the roan quota was 2 bulls per year. We saw a good mix of mature bulls, cows, calves and young bulls .
The farm appeared to be well managed and all species had the same mix.
I believe this outfitter charged a fairly premium price to keep the off take down and maintain healthy populations plus make a profit. He did acknowledge that he did buy breading stock when he was getting started and I neglected to ask how often he felt like he needed a shot of new genetics in his herds.

Roan and sable are two of the most problematic farm raised animals for me - and I hasten to add this is purely my perception and congrats on your roan. It sounds like one of the better SA opportunities. But to me, hunting species like roan, sable, or even nyala is all about the experience of hunting them in their native environments. I would much rather, and have, come home with a hard earned 38" sable after probing herds for a week in Mozambique than spotting the designated 44 from the truck on a game farm in SA and collecting him after a short stalk. Roan even more so. That native range experience is far more important to me than hanging a particular animal on the wall.

 

[Hunt anything]

Roan and sable are two of the most problematic farm raised animals for me - and I hasten to add this is purely my perception and congrats on your roan. It sounds like one of the better SA opportunities. But to me, hunting species like roan, sable, or even nyala is all about the experience of hunting them in their native environments. I would much rather, and have, come home with a hard earned 38" sable after probing herds for a week in Mozambique than spotting the designated 44 from the truck on a game farm in SA and collecting him after a short stalk. Roan even more so. That native range experience is far more important to me than hanging a particular animal on the wall.

I would definitely agree with this, my sable and nyala from Mozambiques Coutada 10 are much more important to me than my roan. I do really like the roan even though He was an auction hunt during Covid so I got him at a greatly reduced price. Not sure if I’ll ever get to an area where roan run wild.