IN PURSUIT OF A 60 INCH KUDU

[375Fox]

Please explain your rational behind a completely non-rational statement such a "Generally free range bulls have better genetics than most game farms for kudu."
I'm really trying to understand what you are saying here but everything I learnt up to Masters level in Animal Breeding is railing to hard that it is making my head hurt.
Some people that does not know better might take your statement seriously!

You seem to be trolling me in most cases you reply to one of my posts but I’ll give you an answer. Most farms shoot the biggest kudu genetics out, so over time the average will decrease with a high fence. Free range cattle ranches can definitely get hammered by hunting pressure, especially meat hunting pressure, but no fence/low fence allows new kudu genetics to constantly move back in. In areas where there is a large amount of cattle ranches and a large kudu population, there is no reason for owner or outfitter to continually supplement the high fence kudu. Priority will go to species not common or available outside the fence. Places like Limpopo where game is regularly supplemented I know you’ll find large kudu inside the high fence and that is why I wrote there are game farms with exceptional genetics or even a stocked breeding bull. Most farms are not 50,000 hectares (120,000 acres) like where you managed. A 20,000 acre farm would be big by most standards and the kudu genetics will get shot out over time in most cases. A 52 average will become 50 will become 48 with regular hunting. A low fence 52 average will typically remain a 52 average. A 60” low fence kudu is very difficult. I did not say it was easy. However, many high fence farms just don’t have 60” bulls on them at all and never have. Botswana being an exception to this because the farms (if you can call them that) are massive.

 

[Piet-Vis]

You seem to be trolling me in most cases you reply to one of my posts but I’ll give you an answer. Most farms shoot the biggest kudu genetics out, so over time the average will decrease with a high fence. Free range cattle ranches can definitely get hammered by hunting pressure, especially meat hunting pressure, but no fence/low fence allows new kudu genetics to constantly move back in. In areas where there is a large amount of cattle ranches and a large kudu population, there is no reason for owner or outfitter to continually supplement the high fence kudu. Priority will go to species not common or available outside the fence. Places like Limpopo where game is regularly supplemented I know you’ll find large kudu inside the high fence and that is why I wrote there are game farms with exceptional genetics or even a stocked breeding bull. Most farms are not 50,000 hectares (120,000 acres) like where you managed. A 20,000 acre farm would be big by most standards and the kudu genetics will get shot out over time in most cases. A 52 average will become 50 will become 48 with regular hunting. A low fence 52 average will typically remain a 52 average. A 60” low fence kudu is very difficult. I did not say it was easy. However, many high fence farms just don’t have 60” bulls on them at all and never have. Botswana being an exception to this because the farms (if you can call them that) are massive.

Err, no
That is not how genes get transferred. By the time a bull is trophy size (+55") he has spent several years spreading his seed.
Or how game farms are managed. Game Farmers are very careful to look after the young bulls with the deep curls to go out past their ears.
Horn size is not a fitness trait (fertility /survival) and it therefore not something nature selects for. Horn size is something that matters to game farmers, so mediocre bulls get shot out for biltong constantly. Many farmers charge by the inch so local hunters specifically target mediocre bulls.
Hence, there is a tendency for horn size to increase on game farms, via negative selection. Game Farmers also go to game auctions and buy good breeding bulls with nice deep curls to improve their stock on the farm.
So you are 100% incorrect in your understanding of breeding and game farm management.
I comment on your comments as you tend to have strong opinions about subjects that you 1) don't have a academic background in 2) don't have experience in.
Those in the know (Outfitters / PHs here) don't call nonsense out as they might offend potential customers.

 

[375Fox]

Err, no
That is not how genes get transferred. By the time a bull is trophy size (+55") he has spent several years spreading his seed.
Or how game farms are managed. Game Farmers are very careful to look after the young bulls with the deep curls to go out past their ears.
Horn size is not a fitness trait (fertility /survival) and it therefore not something nature selects for. Horn size is something that matters to game farmers, so mediocre bulls get shot out for biltong constantly. Many farmers charge by the inch so local hunters specifically target mediocre bulls.
Hence, there is a tendency for horn size to increase on game farms, via negative selection. Game Farmers also go to game auctions and buy good breeding bulls with nice deep curls to improve their stock on the farm.
So you are 100% incorrect in your understanding of breeding and game farm management.
I comment on your comments as you tend to have strong opinions about subjects that you 1) don't have a academic background in 2) don't have experience in.
Those in the know (Outfitters / PHs here) don't call nonsense out as they might offend potential customers.

The only thing we will agree on is charging by the inch, as much as many hate it, it does a lot to protect genetics in a high fence. I think you will argue with any point I make simply to try and discredit what I write. I acknowledged there are highly managed farms for exceptional kudu genetics. You won’t acknowledge many aren’t for the reasons I listed. In most areas, I believe free range cattle ranch kudu hold better genetics than most high fence farms.

 

[Piet-Vis]

The only thing we will agree on is charging by the inch, as much as many hate it, it does a lot to protect genetics in a high fence. I think you will argue with any point I make simply to try and discredit what I write. I acknowledged there are highly managed farms for exceptional kudu genetics. You won’t acknowledge many aren’t for the reasons I listed. In most areas, I believe free range cattle ranch kudu hold better genetics than most high fence farms.

"I believe free range cattle ranch kudu hold better genetics than most high fence farms"
The sheer arrogance of a foreigner that has visit SA what, half a dozen times, to tell a person with post grad qualifications in animal breeding, and who spent most of his life ON cattle farms about where the "best" kudu genetics are, is just special!
Kudos!

 

[375Fox]

"I believe free range cattle ranch kudu hold better genetics than most high fence farms"
The sheer arrogance of a foreigner that has visit SA what, half a dozen times, to tell a person with post grad qualifications in animal breeding, and who spent most of his life ON cattle farms about where the "best" kudu genetics are, is just special!
Kudos!

Africa is a big continent. Most South Africans know their local hunting and have limited knowledge of what’s beyond that, same as anywhere else in the world. The arrogance is thinking the hunting world revolves around the game breeding industry in South Africa. I’d hunt a cattle ranch in Namibia or Botswana for a big kudu before considering a high fence hunt on a smaller ranch in Limpopo that’s intensely managed for big bulls.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Africa is a big continent. Most South Africans know their local hunting and have limited knowledge of what’s beyond that, same as anywhere else in the world. The arrogance is thinking the hunting world revolves around the game breeding industry in South Africa. I’d hunt a cattle ranch in Namibia or Botswana for a big kudu before considering a high fence hunt on a smaller ranch in Limpopo that’s intensely managed for big bulls.

The 50 000 ha farm is in the Namibian Kalahari. There are very few properties like that in SA. I've lived the majority of my adult life in Botswana...

 

[375Fox]

The 50 000 ha farm is in the Namibian Kalahari. There are very few properties like that in SA. I've lived the majority of my adult life in Botswana...

Then I don’t know why you are arguing with me. You could easily convince me a 50,000 hectare farm in Namibia has some of the best genetics available. However, you aren’t going to convince me the average 20,000 acre game farm in Namibia does.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Then I don’t know why you are arguing with me. You could easily convince me a 50,000 hectare farm in Namibia has some of the best genetics available. However, you aren’t going to convince me the average 20,000 acre game farm in Namibia does.

Wrong again.
If we saw any spectacular trophies on the unfenced part we would get the helicopter, dart it, and then put it in the game camp where we could breed it... (The kudu was well beyond breeding age)
Great genetics is worth a lot of money you know. Farmers are businessmen, and they look after their financial interest.
I have friends at Setlagole (SA Kalahari) with the most phenomenal Kudu on their farm. The saved money, build a high fence, captured the Kudu, breed them, and now sell great quality breeding bulls to other farmers.
Perhaps you come from a world where money is easy to make, this side it's hard, and nobody can afford not to take every financial advantage.

 

[375Fox]

Wrong again.
If we saw any spectacular trophies on the unfenced part we would get the helicopter, dart it, and then put it in the game camp where we could breed it... (The kudu was well beyond breeding age)
Great genetics is worth a lot of money you know. Farmers are businessmen, and they look after their financial interest.
I have friends at Setlagole (SA Kalahari) with the most phenomenal Kudu on their farm. The saved money, build a high fence, captured the Kudu, breed them, and now sell great quality breeding bulls to other farmers.
Perhaps you come from a world where money is easy to make, this side it's hard, and nobody can afford not to take every financial advantage.

I’m glad your friend has an exceptional kudu hunting farm.

 

[uplander01]

I've only seen (1) 60" kudu bull, it was in Zimbabwe Sengwa concession the 2nd year after covid, I was hunting with Makore at the time, but they no longer have that area now. It was a beautiful animal, sucks that we were just going for a ride on the first afternoon to take some pics,.....the scenario would not have led to a shot more than likely anyway. IMO when you get above 56-57", it's as good as it gets. A 60" kudu is like a 200" whitetail, you see pics of 1 or 2 every year but the likelihood of getting one yourself is slim. I think lack of hunting during the covid boosted some measurements due to low hunting numbers in that year or two.

 

[Howdy]

Hello
We can help you with kudu hunting for sure. We do take a couple 60 inch bulls a year on average. This is absolutely not a guarantee. These are free roaming bulls over thousands and thousands of acres. There are a couple pictures on this forum of bulls we have taken. View attachment 598026
Here is a 60 inch bull taken just last month.

Same me one, I’ll be there in July 2025

 

[Kevin Billings]

Please ex plain your rational behind a completely non-rational statement such a "Generally free range bulls have better genetics than most game farms for kudu."
I'm really trying to understand what you are saying here but everything I learnt up to Masters level in Animal Breeding is railing to hard that it is making my head hurt.
Some people that does not know better might take your statement seriously!

375Fox and Piet-Vis thank you for your participation in this "open forum" and this thread. I appreciate both of your comments.

Piet-Vis, I am assuming your statements are based upon science. You state/imply you are a "Masters level in Animal Breeding". Piet-Vis what is a "Masters level"? Is it a college degree or certificate? And do you have a degree or certificate? If so where did you get it? It sounds very interesting.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

 

[62flint]

I would think a kudu breeding program and trophy whitetail breeding program would have a lot of similarities.
The white tail farms have horns you would never see in the wild.

 

[flatwater bill]

@Kelly G Beautiful kudu...............many of the biggest bulls simply don't have such a great shape......In fact, many of the record book kudu are downright unattractive.......one of the many reasons I don't value inches as much as some do. Your bull has it all...symmetry, tips out, keratin tips, and heavy bases....well done......FWB

 

[IvW]

375Fox and Piet-Vis thank you for your participation in this "open forum" and this thread. I appreciate both of your comments.

Piet-Vis, I am assuming your statements are based upon science. You state/imply you are a "Masters level in Animal Breeding". Piet-Vis what is a "Masters level"? Is it a college degree or certificate? And do you have a degree or certificate? If so where did you get it? It sounds very interesting.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

AH...

 

[lockingblock]

Botswana....

this.

Call Jaco at NKWE Safaris. I took a 58 and 59 in Kudu there…and saw one much bigger. He is the guru for big Kudu.

 

[HankBuck]

Hello All,

I have been to Africa several times, and have shot a Southern Greater and Eastern Cape kudu. Now, I would love to hunt the majestic 60 inch kudu. I would love some recommendations on outfitters, current prices I should expect, and any information or suggestions.

Thank you & Aloha!!!

Maui: I wish you success on your quest and have had similar goals on trophy animals — would like to take a whitetail that qualify’s for B&C or a 180” Mule deer.
On Safari in TZ I passed up many good Buffalo (close easy shots) because they were under 40” and that was my goal —— really regret that now.
However, Now I think this is a ridiculous “tape measure Goal” and I’ve found that it can detract from many fine & exciting hunts. If I need a “tape measure” to determine if I’m thrilled with a Trophy - then I’m eliminating all of the really important factors that are part of hunting: the Hunt itself and the effort put forward, the stalk, the shot, the area that I had to reach to find the animal etc,,,, I don’t want all of that to be over shadowed because of some “inch” or round number (60 vs 59). I can drive to Texas and shoot many impressive racks & horns — just pay the $$$….but they would Not have meaning to me. Sticking too hard to a “measurement” you risk seeing a fine Bull, making a great stalk & shot then being disappointed when the tape measure reads 59”. This is just my opinion and I will admire and maybe envy your 60” Bull Kudu and “Yes” I’d certainly like to take one too… I try not to get too hung up on “measurements” because for me there is much more that goes into a trophy. Have a Great Hunt

 

[Piet-Vis]

375Fox and Piet-Vis thank you for your participation in this "open forum" and this thread. I appreciate both of your comments.

Piet-Vis, I am assuming your statements are based upon science. You state/imply you are a "Masters level in Animal Breeding". Piet-Vis what is a "Masters level"? Is it a college degree or certificate? And do you have a degree or certificate? If so where did you get it? It sounds very interesting.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi Kevin
The South African university qualifications are 3x years for your Bachelors, 1x year for your Honours and then min 2x years for your Masters degree. At Masters level you are expected to do research and publish under guidance from a promotor, while a you need to be able to do independent research for your Doctorate, which is the next qualification.
My field of interest (at that stage) was the interaction between Livestock and their production environments, and that is what I spent several years researching.

 

[Piet-Vis]

this.

Call Jaco at NKWE Safaris. I took a 58 and 59 in Kudu there…and saw one much bigger. He is the guru for big Kudu.

That is indeed one of those places where the environment allows Kudu to grow out really really big...

 

[revturbo9967]

The only kudu I’ve seen in person were in Zim and the mature bulls were massive. Unfortunately they were always running when trying to get a shot.

Another member here shot a 60 inch in the same area I was in about a month before my arrival . I would say there are some exceptional genetics in that area. Hard hunting but great trophy quality.

@Tanks what a stud of a kudu.