If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[baxterb]

My opinions, and that is all they are...

I have zero issue with DG with a bow (or crossbow).
It totally comes down to the hunter and his/her preparation.
All hunting comes with risk.
It does involve choices, on behalf of everyone involved.
It is a sadness this video is "out there."
This fool should never have been allowed a lion or anything else.

I don't understand the mindset that all types of DG hunting that make use of a something less than a large caliber rifle are "stunts." Frankly, if that's truly your mindset I'd argue any sort of hunting on any level is nothing more than a stunt. Do some folks turn such a pursuit into a stunt? Yes. That doesn't make the act itself one. Motives, preparation, and other elements come into play, just as they would with a rifle.

Two from my own life: when I shot my cow buff with a .45-70 two years ago, I had a couple of people tell me they thought it was something like a stunt. From my perspective, it was nothing of the sort. I spent a LOT of time talking to my PH, seeking out the advice of others, untold hours load testing, and then finally a lot of practice, before I ever had the chance to hunt. I listened to EVERYTHING my PH said. He had input during the process of me seeking the right load, and I would not have gone against anything he said on the hunt. If I'd have come home without a shot, that would have been fine. No one would have known. I wasn't trying to impress anyone. The other example has yet to happen: one of my remaining bucket list items is brown bear with a bow. I have spent a lot of years practicing, and doing my research. I have been on several hunts and it just didn't quite come together, and so I'll keep trying. I do not think of it as a stunt. I know it's something a lot of dedicated hunters have accomplished, and it's one I want to say I have. No videos, no YouTube... just me proving to myself I can.

there are rules here where if you wound an animal with a bow, you cannot “finish” it with the handgun you might carry for bear protection.

I think if that rule were applied for DG there would be a lot fewer folks going after dangerous game with a bow.

does not being able to shoot yourself out of what you shot yourself into border on a “stunt?” It might. I would extend this to personal capability - meaning if your skill with a rifle is to pot one in the ass so your PH can finish up, it’s no better.

For the record, this lion should not be considered a bow/crossbow killed lion anymore than had he thrown a rock at it it would have been considered a rock-killed lion.

but in general I think we are more on the same side than not. Merely working the dialectic.

 

[375Fox]

Who are we to dictate what South Africans should do or not do with their wild or bred in captivity animals? CBL or free-range lion, it's their business and it's ours if we want to participate or not. We have a choice! Thanks to our idiot leaders we can't import certain animals from certain countries. Let's keep this up and we may not be able to bring our kudu home.

We basically do the same thing here in the states where rich executives go and hunt a particular 200+ white tail in a TX ranch. They know exactly their pattern and what not. They mount that huge white tail over their office, and brag about it. Is it right, or ethical? A big NO, but it's not my business to bitch about it. It's done, but it's not made public for everyone to see.

The problem I see is that with the internet and YouTube and whatever else is out there, all these videos are seen by everyone. How many times have you shot at an animal and see him run and then pile up and kick until it dies. How do you think the Antis would react by seeing that? The percentage of animals dropping at the shot are very small. Yes, the animal was probably running dead, but the antis see a poor animal suffering by our hands.

In regard to this video, the PHs had an option to say no to this hunter. They had the option to back out and follow the lion on another day. Maybe they saw the $$$$ with the free advertisement from this video, I don't know. The PHs had the opportunity to not do this hunt at all. They had an option.

I've said it before and going to say it again. We are our worst enemy, and the antis see this and feed on this type of posting. I you don't like something on here, tv, or whatever, change the channel, turn the page or just don't read about it. You have a choice. But, since we are a very opinionated bunch, we feel we have to step in and criticize the hunt, and what not.

You will get criticized if you don't hunt with a control feed, Blaser rifle, dressing up in camo to hunt Africa, not using XYZ type of bullets, because all other will get you killed. Calling what we killed a trophy, not arguing with the antis. Hunting in fenced area, vs. open areas, etc, etc, etc. If we continue on this path, our grandkids will not be able to enjoy our sport.

Done with my rant.

I don’t think anyone is telling South Africa what they can or can’t do in their own country. I’m criticizing that CBL is called hunting. Call it farm raised lion harvesting to make a separation and my objection generally goes away. I don’t agree with shooting farm raised deer either, however the amount it damages the image of hunting to the general public is minimal, so I am willing to overlook it. I think defending commercial farming as hunting is dangerous to integrity and future of hunting.

 

[Rare Breed]

I in no way would say archery hunting DG is unethical nor would I say archery cannot kill DG. Done more times than we can count. Having bow hunted all my life I just know unlike a rifle archery has zero stopping power which places greater danger on both hunter, PH and trackers if things go wrong

 

[503]

Didn't some guy somewhere say something like, " Bring enough gun." I feel like I've heard that somewhere.....

 

[E Butler]

The PH definitely saved their buts. Whoever was standing to the left and behind the PH was the target. That lion did exactly what I have read about. He picks one person as the target and never changes course. Problem is it usually is not the guy in front. No one wants a gun shot hole in their archery lion but when he charges the deal is off. PH rules. He even got mad earlier in the film telling everyone to stay right behind him so he would get a straight shot if the cat charged. The crossbow shot was good. The cat is supposed the run away and die not charge.

 

[dchum]

The PH definitely saved their buts. Whoever was standing to the left and behind the PH was the target. That lion did exactly what I have read about. He picks one person as the target and never changes course. Problem is it usually is not the guy in front. No one wants a gun shot hole in their archery lion but when he charges the deal is off. PH rules. He even got mad earlier in the film telling everyone to stay right behind him so he would get a straight shot if the cat charged. The crossbow shot was good. The cat is supposed the run away and die not charge.

The shoot (bolt) looked well placed to you?

 

[Frederik]

This is just straight forward bullshit...ask them to provide you with legislation where it states there has to be 2 Professional hunters present for DG?????
There may be two or more but it is not a requirement.....

North West Province Ordinance!

 

[cdub]

I prefer to think i have a chance of protecting myself or worst case scenario help someone else if all hell breaks loose from a potential screw up on my part, no matter what situation presents itself. I would never rely 100% on someone else protecting me, which in this case is what the crossbow shooter conceded to when he cut loose that bolt in that situation. A charge was eminent and expected and ultimately occurred. I cant imagine shooting DG that is alert to your presence, knowing a charge was coming, with a single shot anything - even with the calvary he had behind him. Theatrics for camera at best.

 

[IvW]

North West Province

Every Dangerous Game hunt I have started in South African has had at least two PH's on that hunt, that is how I picked up my time for my DG rating, I was told it was a requirement ?

Not all finished with two but two were meant to be there !

Perhaps some clarification is in order.

Above statement (Every Dangerous game hunt......in South Africa....I was told it was a requirement.....) gives the impression that it is a blanket requirement....which is not the case.....simple...if the statement was for a crossbow lion hunt in NW then yes it is stated as such on the Permit but nowhere in the Old Ordinance or New regulations......

For NW neither in the old ordinance (1987) or the hunting regulations is this stipulated that 2 Professional hunters need to be present

For NW province it makes out part of the Hunting permit that gets issued and the above case for lion with a crossbow it will stipulate 2 Professional hunters. The ONLY province that requires this. ...

Before this permit is issued all relevant information regarding needs to be submitted. In the case of a bow hunt for lion type of bow(longbow, recurve, compound or crossbow(only compound crossbow)) needs to be provided. Including arrow length which has a minimum of 50cm. As well as the hunters previous experience with the bow in question.....if they are not satisfied or the bow does not meet the requirements the permit will not be issued....

So if the above was not done and a crossbow is used or any other weapon not stipulated in the permit by the hunter it will be an illegal hunt. If somebody got injured or killed there will be serious repurcussions...

I hope this clarifies some of this...

 

[IvW]

In NW it is 96hrs....7 days is the SAPA recommendation.....there are 7 SAPA facilities in NW 1 in the Freestate and 1 in Limpopo....

Some try to do it right many dont....

It is each persons own choice....just make sure all the paperwork is correct and in place....

 

[Philip Glass]

Don't bow hunt DG! It's "dangerous".

 

[Dhutson]

Man, I met this guy at Africa Sky in Joberg right after this hunt a couple weeks ago and he showed us the video. He was quite pleased with himself. Oooof.

So, does the phrase "Use Enough Gun" apply? To the real hunter it seems that it is more about taking the trophy as ethically and as quickly as possible. And I am sure that a crossbow will do the trick. But will it do so to not have to have a PH save your life. That wouldn't seem to be the goal.

Yes the PH is there on every hunt but would seem like as the hunter we should make sure that we are doing everything to take the animal quicky with a weapon that will meet that criteria. Hence, use enough gun.

But to each his own. As we say in Texas, bless you heart.

 

[WAB]

So, does the phrase "Use Enough Gun" apply? To the real hunter it seems that it is more about taking the trophy as ethically and as quickly as possible. And I am sure that a crossbow will do the trick. But will it do so to not have to have a PH save your life. That wouldn't seem to be the goal.

Yes the PH is there on every hunt but would seem like as the hunter we should make sure that we are doing everything to take the animal quicky with a weapon that will meet that criteria. Hence, use enough gun.

But to each his own. As we say in Texas, bless you heart.

For those of you without Southern ties:

Why bless your heart = My what an idiot you are!

 

[LivingTheDream]

For those of you without Southern ties:

Why bless your heart = My what an idiot you are!

I have seen it used to describe an ugly baby as well.

 

[503]

You'd think crossbow guy would have a rifle sitting next to him and switch to it right after he shot the arrow. For the inevitable charge..... I know I'd want to be able to help out in that situation instead of standing there just hoping to not die.

 

[PARA45]

I don’t think anyone is telling South Africa what they can or can’t do in their own country. I’m criticizing that CBL is called hunting. Call it farm raised lion harvesting to make a separation and my objection generally goes away. I don’t agree with shooting farm raised deer either, however the amount it damages the image of hunting to the general public is minimal, so I am willing to overlook it. I think defending commercial farming as hunting is dangerous to integrity and future of hunting.

The moment we get on here and criticize their business and practice, on how is not hunting, and what not, we are telling them. Again, if you don't like it don't do it. Very simple. But don't be another voice for the anti-group by criticizing the practice, especially when it's legal in that particular country.

Now, please tell me how shooting a leopard or lion from a blind on a bait pile is consider hunting???? If you want to get technical about it, that to me is more like shooting, than hunting. The PH knows the pattern of the animal, I'm sure they are on camera, and what not. BTW, I don't criticize their practice, if that is what they want to do, by all means do it. But I'm not going to sit here behind my keyboard and rip them apart by saying how their practice is this and is that.

The antis make a big deal about lions because they know they can sell their scam by saying how cute, and adorable they are. The day the antis come after the deer, dove, quail, turkey, and everything they can think of, it will be too late for our sport.

Do you have an issue because the animal is raised in captivity to be later released and shot. Well, then let's criticize everyone who is in the business of raising pheasant, quail, deer, bison, etc, to be released to later be shot. We don't hear about this because the antis know it doesn't sell. Look at all the commercials about elephants, snow leopards, Bengal Tigers, how they are being slaughter, blah, blah, blah. The left knows how they can touch those soft hearts by feeding and manipulating misinformation. BTW, if you haven't noticed, the leopard is next.

You are entitled to your opinion, the same way I am, and we will probably never look at it the same way. But criticizing and pointing fingers and saying that is not hunting, in a public forum is not healthy. If you don't agree with the practice, move on, turn the page.

 

[Inline6]

I don’t think anyone is telling South Africa what they can or can’t do in their own country. I’m criticizing that CBL is called hunting. Call it farm raised lion harvesting to make a separation and my objection generally goes away. I don’t agree with shooting farm raised deer either, however the amount it damages the image of hunting to the general public is minimal, so I am willing to overlook it. I think defending commercial farming as hunting is dangerous to integrity and future of hunting.

Actually if it were not for farm raising we would have lost several species. Texas has a lot of exotic animals, some of them are thriving here while dwindling away in the wild. As the human population grows the wildlife shrinks. Their will be a balance what the end result is, I can't tell you. What I can say for certain, if " these farm raised" animals go away the wild populations are going to suffer.

People have their feelings, get that. Thier is also difference in a canned hunt and one that takes place on a large property with a self sustained herd. No matter what, all it takes is one look at this thread to see the split amongst us hunters.

They interesting aspect to this, when inwas younger 30+ years ago. I had been on several deer hunts with dogs. Had been on both side as the shooter and the driver. I got a little older and thought it was not for me, where is the sportsmanship in it? A lot of places shut it down, public out cry reached a point hunts a lot of them thought like I did so the antis won. They split the hunters up and got their way. The part I did not see or understand then, hunting with dog was nothing new and has happen before we were ever a country. It still happens all over the world. It was an eye opening lesson, unfortunately I do not feel like we will learn past. We are for the most part a large group of type A personalities. Are we tend to go down with our ship than open our mind to see a different perspective, thus we loose battles with the antis because we can't keep our own ego in check.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Don't bow hunt DG! It's "dangerous".

I’m paraphrasing here..

Don’t hunt leopard with hounds! It’s “too” dangerous.- Philip Glass

 

[Vintageguy]

Actually if it were not for farm raising we would have lost several species. Texas has a lot of exotic animals, some of them are thriving here while dwindling away in the wild. As the human population grows the wildlife shrinks. Their will be a balance what the end result is, I can't tell you. What I can say for certain, if " these farm raised" animals go away the wild populations are going to suffer.

People have their feelings, get that. Thier is also difference in a canned hunt and one that takes place on a large property with a self sustained herd. No matter what, all it takes is one look at this thread to see the split amongst us hunters.

They interesting aspect to this, when inwas younger 30+ years ago. I had been on several deer hunts with dogs. Had been on both side as the shooter and the driver. I got a little older and thought it was not for me, where is the sportsmanship in it? A lot of places shut it down, public out cry reached a point hunts a lot of them thought like I did so the antis won. They split the hunters up and got their way. The part I did not see or understand then, hunting with dog was nothing new and has happen before we were ever a country. It still happens all over the world. It was an eye opening lesson, unfortunately I do not feel like we will learn past. We are for the most part a large group of type A personalities. Are we tend to go down with our ship than open our mind to see a different perspective, thus we loose battles with the antis because we can't keep our own ego in check.

The banning of hunting over bait, hunting with dogs, long range hunting, and the use of trail cameras are all just baby steps away for the anti’s. They are attacking all of these things or beginning to and I agree that the disunity in the hunting and shooting communities is making it much easier than it should be.

 

[PARA45]

The banning of hunting over bait, hunting with dogs, long range hunting, and the use of trail cameras are all just baby steps away for the anti’s. They are attacking all of these things or beginning to and I agree that the disunity in the hunting and shooting communities is making it much easier than it should be.

We've become our worst enemy.