I need a "Use Enough Gun" Gun. Suggestions?

[Brian]

I have killed 6 cape buffalo with the .375 HH. All, except the one above which was a poor shot, were one shot kills with the bullet going into or near the heart. I used the NF CPS on some of them. ( I test different premium bullets, it saves some on the guess work.)

My comments about the .375 HH are because I have seen how the buffalo reacts to the shot. They just don't go down quickly enough for me. That is my personal observation, not conjecture.

Obviously it's my point of view, no big deal, I just say it, for the same reason that you all say things. I like to share my hunting stuff with other hunters. Sometimes I go over the top in my excitement and then someone hollers "Get a rope". ( chuckle)

I sure agree with the statement that a .375HH that the shooter is accurate with is much better than a big bore that the shooter cannot shoot accurately.

Ideally, in my observations, I see that a good shot with a big bore using a premium bullet kills buffalo much quicker than a good shot with a .375 using a premium bullet. In most circles that is not a controversial point of view and it's nothing against the folks who hunt buffalo with the .375.

Enjoy hunting,

Brian

 

[Red Leg]

Ideally, in my observations, I see that a good shot with a big bore using a premium bullet kills buffalo much quicker than a good shot with a .375 using a premium bullet. In most circles that is not a controversial point of view and it's nothing against the folks who hunt buffalo with the .375.

Enjoy hunting,

Brian

I agree.

 

[Brian]

I already posted this once but here are the straight facts you’re not looking for.

Thread 'Is Bigger Always Better?'

Dec 7, 2020

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette.
A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture):

Let me know your thoughts....

• ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Articles

• 

Karl,

I read your excellent article again this morning, "Is Bigger Always Better" in The African Hunting Gazette. I get something more out of it each time I read it. It show a lot of thought and research.

I subscribe to the AHG and have a couple of buffalo hunting stories published in it. They are not in depth research articles like yours, they are just light hearted stories of my hunts.

My favourite one is in the 2017 Summer Edition of The African Hunting Gazette, titled " Never Mind the Bull". On that hunt I was hunting cows with my .577NE break-open single shot for the first time and was shooting my own hand cast 700 grain bullets. The PH was the awesome Kobus Kok. We were hunting at Buffalo Land Safaris near Hoedspruit in the Lowveld. The story is just a recollection of a fun hunt.

The same with another one that got published in the AHG called "Abraham's Grin', a story of my first buffalo hunt where I was carrying my .375HH in the Waterberg Mountains with a young Zulu tracker. I and my boys and grandson ended up hunting with him a number of times over the years. He seldom spoke english but you knew if buffalo were close, by Abraham's big wide grin. Unfortunately he died of stomach cancer last summer. He will sure be missed.

I think those stories are also posted here on AH somewhere. If you see them, enjoy. Brian

 

[Brian]

If any one is into it, I found the story "Never Mind the Bull" and a video of the hunt here on AH.
The heading for the story is "A Cape Buffalo Cow Hunting Story" May 12, 2017

A kind poster from New Zealand pasted the YouTube video of the hunt on the same thread.
The heading for the video is "Brian Hunts Cape Buffalo with a .577 NE Single Shot." May 12, 2017
Enjoy.

 

[Brian]

I have had good kills with five of my six cape buffalo using my .375HH. As you guys say, bullet placement is the deal.

The night before one of these hunts in the Waterburg Mountains near Vaalwater, I asked the PH about the femur bone shot. He said it was one of his favourite shots because when the buffalo is quartering towards the shooter at just the right angle, the upper end of femur bone, lines up perfectly with the heart. With the right bullet you can break the femur bone and hit the heart with the one shot. He said that it can be tricky but when it works, it works well. ( A tough bullet or a solid is the ticket for this shot.)

The next morning my grandson Jaxon was with us as an enthusiastic observer, we were crouching behind three trees watching a small group of cape buffalo at about 60 yards. They were in the open and the breeze and light were right. We didn't have to sneak up on them, they had just grazed towards us. As I remember they were probably coming from water and heading for the shade or visa versa.

As usual. I was looking for an old cow and there are two nice ones in this small group.
The old girl on the far right turned and presented me with that very femur bone, heart shot that we were discussing the night before. It took me a moment to recognize it, but there is was.

I had a NorthFork Cup Point Solid ( CPS ) in the chamber of my Winchester Model 70, 375 HH, it's a solid that's designed for controlled, limited expansion and is considered to be one of the best solids on the market for buffalo. I believe it was designed in tandem with Michael458's development of the Safari Raptor bullet and the #13 Safari Solid. ( I'm one of those buffalo hunters who likes a well designed solids with a wide flat meplat, for certain applications, more so in the big bore calibers.)

I visualized a straight line from where I figured the old cow's femur was to her heart, said a prayer to the hunting gods and squeezed off the shot. The old cows reaction was impressive, she exploded into action, jumping up and down on the spot while doing a 360 degree pirouette before she crashed to the ground. The time from the sound of the shot to when she hit the ground was no more than three seconds. I can't call it a "bang-flop" kill, lets say it was a "bang-pirouette-flop" kill.

Anyhow it was a nice easy morning in the bushveld for the tracker and an unforgettable experience for my grandson.

Yes, I have had success with the .375 on cape buffalo including some pretty exciting times to.
( Once I hit a buffalo hard in the heart/lungs at close range and he ran right past me like Jack the bear. In that case I was very quick to do nothing, not even reload! ) I am a firm believer that the .375 works until it doesn't. (LOL)

For me, when the shooting accuracy and bullet quality are consistently first class, cape buffalo kills became predictably quicker as I moved up through the big bores. I found the .500 cal cartridges to be amazing buffalo killers with a proper bullet in the engine room.

When it comes to the .577 NE, few people have even seen a cape buffalo killed by a heavy load in a .577NE ( 650 grain , .585cal. bullet at 2,200 fps., not the powder puff loads that J Allan smith uses on his videos.) Few people believe how quick the .577NE drops cape buffalo when I tell them.

They say that my 19 buffalo kills puts me at the low end of the "experienced" buffalo hunter category.
I like that, but with me I often experiment with different shots, differing bullet and different cartridges when I hunt buffalo so I tend to learn more, gain a wider knowledge base than if I just kept doing the same thing over and over. I really enjoy cape buffalo hunting and have an open mind to new ideas, bullets and techniques.

 

[Franco]

These posts are fascinating and educational. I have some questions, but in in the interest of transparency, I must confess I use some of what you all say to support my rational when convincing my wife I need another rifle.

My first safari was in 2018 and I used a Heym 375 H&H, a Wthrby 300 Mag, and a Heym 450/400 double. I could have easily left the 300 at home.

Both the 375 and 450/400 have proven to be effective. More so in direct relationship to my proficiency.

Words to the effect, "Pick a rifle and shoot it well" carry significant meaning. Wound an animal and lose it - you still pay.

Shot placement and "Bigger is better" - a perfectly placed 375 does the job, but does a 416 or 458 in the same place do a better job? Or, does a larger caliber like 416 or 458 give you more placement options? Or, both?

I've taken 1 cape buffalo with my 375, the rest with the 450/400. I much prefer the 450/400.

The argument of more options was the basis for my 458 Lott and 500 double.

With respect to the original post; you asked for examples - here goes:

I have found (in my limited experience) the 375 is very effective when used on animals for which the 375 is rated. Would I shoot an elephant with it - no. I have shot 3 of them with my 450/400 and I have convinced myself a 500 would do a better job and offer the option of breaking a leg if the situation dictated. Is this a valid point?

I've shot a half dozen hippos with the 375 but I think a 416 or 458 would do a better job. Conversely, I don't think I'd want to shoot a small animal with a 416 or 458.

You have to ask yourself what you're going to hunt, how you're going to hunt, and bring the right tool for the job. A Crescent wrench might serve as a hammer, but a hammer doesn't always work as a crescent wrench.

I will give you an example, and open myself up for criticism.

My most recent croc hunt, I shot 1 at 62 yds - the croc was sideways, basking on a sandbar and I was concealed behind a blind - all prearranged. I used my 375 armed with a custom loaded Barnes 270 gr TSX. 1 shot at the end of the smile and he never moved. 2 more shots for good measure.

My second croc was 228 yds out on a sandbar, head towards me but at only a slight angle, a proper shot at the smile was not an option. Same rifle, same ammo. Picture follows:

General consensus will probably be that's too far for a croc? I had a rock solid base with no wind. I dialed for 200

My third croc was up close - about 20 yds, facing directly at me, and we were eye level to each other. For me, anything that close is open sight double rifle. We had anticipated about 30 yds but he actually moved closer.

This time i used my 450/400 with a North Fork 400 gr soft in the first barrel, and a C.E.B Safari Raptor 370 gr in the second barrel. The first shot hit just above the snout and penetrated the brain and spinal cord. The bullet was recovered from the base of the skull. The wound erupted with blood and he never moved, I raised up and fired the second barrel, hitting just a bit higher but with much the same outcome. The PH put a couple in the top of his head as I reloaded, and then I hit him again. You can see the blood and bullet placement in the 2 photos:

These examples show the effectiveness and damage of different calibers and with the 450/400 - different bullets.

The point I'm trying to make here is: I would not have used the double on the first 2 crocs, nor would I have used the 375 on the 3rd.

Before anyone comments about those 2 shots seeming far apart, remember, I was eye level shooting flat at his head - the aim point was only about a 1/2 inch higher. That said, yes I'm going to shoot the same pairing off a bench.

Azklmsr, you are welcome to shoot any or all of my rifles to get a feel for them. If you are shooting 1 hole groups with that 375 - that's your gun.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Franco, I love the coloration of your 1st Croc. Well done on all three. Your comments are 100% on the money. I shoot my 375 really well but am not sure I would have had the confidence to shoot a croc at 200+y. That was a hell of a shot. Use the right tool.

I have croc on my "to get list" for the next Safari. But I was leaning toward a smaller caliber. 7mmMag or 338Mag or 30-06. I try to take different guns on each trip only because it gives me a year of enjoyment getting completely proficient with them before the week or two of hunting. If I choose one gun and get good with it alone, I shoot better but miss out on all the fun in between hunting trips, lol.

 

[Franco]

Franco, I love the coloration of your 1st Croc. Well done on all three. Your comments are 100% on the money. I shoot my 375 really well but am not sure I would have had the confidence to shoot a croc at 200+y. That was a hell of a shot. Use the right tool.

I have croc on my "to get list" for the next Safari. But I was leaning toward a smaller caliber. 7mmMag or 338Mag or 30-06. I try to take different guns on each trip only because it gives me a year of enjoyment getting completely proficient with them before the week or two of hunting. If I choose one gun and get good with it alone, I shoot better but miss out on all the fun in between hunting trips, lol.

View attachment 701614

Thank you, I appreciate your comments.

I anticipate more feedback on the long shot and look forward to the thoughts of the more experienced members of this forum.

When I first considered crocs and hippos I was told, "When you can hit a golf ball at 100yds - you're good to go" So - I started practicing.

Well, what if the croc/hippo isn't at 100 yds? Do I back up, do I move in closer?

This is my understanding and I invite clarification or education (I could have it completely wrong):

We zero our scoped rifles at a certain distance - 50yds, 100yds, 200yds? Then dial up for longer distance. I do not have a scope which I dial down below zero.

I attended a few classes at FTW and saw the illustration of how the path of the bullet intersects the scope, passing thru on the way up and way down. Yes, I know bullets don't climb, the barrel is raised. But what about those distances from end of barrel to the first point of intersection - or zero?

So, I started shooting those distances short of the zero point using the size of a golf ball as a tolerance and built data for POA vs POI. You can't hold "down" because that simply lowers your POI. Anything beyond zero is compensated by the scope.

I did the same with my open sight double, 20' to 50yds.

The croc at 60 yds - not enough POA vs POI to worry about.

The big guy at 20 yds - a side shot might have possibly given more options, but 2 shots straight thru the brain into the spine did the job.

So now we have the guy at 228yds; the confidence and ability to make that shot are completely different from the risk vs reward consideration which is the part I anticipate some feedback.

You wound an animal on land, you track it - you might find it, you might not.
You heart/lung an animal on land, you track it - you find it.

You wound a croc - he's gone, especially if he's close to water.

I compare the risk vs reward to some of the conversations I've seen with regard to long shots on elk, sheep, etc. A long shot might be your only shot. The question is where do you draw the line at taking it?

These crocs don't get big by being stupid; they come out on sandbars with unrestricted visibility, the moment they feel threatened - into the water they go.

There was no doubt the rifle was capable - the variable was me. I determined my "acceptable reticle movement" for the distance, and weighed that against risk. The PH and I both agreed, if it doesn't look or feel right - no shot. There was no pressure to take this shot for fear of never getting another chance.

Kneeling down and stuck in mud and goat crap proved to be an extremely stable base.

I don't know if my thoughts or rational are correct, I know they seem to work for me.

Your thoughts for a croc rifle sound good to me. Remember - it's not just golf ball at 100yds, it's every distance shorter and whatever distance beyond you get comfortable.

Good luck with your hunt.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thank you, I appreciate your comments.

I anticipate more feedback on the long shot and look forward to the thoughts of the more experienced members of this forum.

When I first considered crocs and hippos I was told, "When you can hit a golf ball at 100yds - you're good to go" So - I started practicing.

Well, what if the croc/hippo isn't at 100 yds? Do I back up, do I move in closer?

This is my understanding and I invite clarification or education (I could have it completely wrong):

We zero our scoped rifles at a certain distance - 50yds, 100yds, 200yds? Then dial up for longer distance. I do not have a scope which I dial down below zero.

I attended a few classes at FTW and saw the illustration of how the path of the bullet intersects the scope, passing thru on the way up and way down. Yes, I know bullets don't climb, the barrel is raised. But what about those distances from end of barrel to the first point of intersection - or zero?

So, I started shooting those distances short of the zero point using the size of a golf ball as a tolerance and built data for POA vs POI. You can't hold "down" because that simply lowers your POI. Anything beyond zero is compensated by the scope.

I did the same with my open sight double, 20' to 50yds.

The croc at 60 yds - not enough POA vs POI to worry about.

The big guy at 20 yds - a side shot might have possibly given more options, but 2 shots straight thru the brain into the spine did the job.

So now we have the guy at 228yds; the confidence and ability to make that shot are completely different from the risk vs reward consideration which is the part I anticipate some feedback.

You wound an animal on land, you track it - you might find it, you might not.
You heart/lung an animal on land, you track it - you find it.

You wound a croc - he's gone, especially if he's close to water.

I compare the risk vs reward to some of the conversations I've seen with regard to long shots on elk, sheep, etc. A long shot might be your only shot. The question is where do you draw the line at taking it?

These crocs don't get big by being stupid; they come out on sandbars with unrestricted visibility, the moment they feel threatened - into the water they go.

There was no doubt the rifle was capable - the variable was me. I determined my "acceptable reticle movement" for the distance, and weighed that against risk. The PH and I both agreed, if it doesn't look or feel right - no shot. There was no pressure to take this shot for fear of never getting another chance.

Kneeling down and stuck in mud and goat crap proved to be an extremely stable base.

I don't know if my thoughts or rational are correct, I know they seem to work for me.

Your thoughts for a croc rifle sound good to me. Remember - it's not just golf ball at 100yds, it's every distance shorter and whatever distance beyond you get comfortable.

Good luck with your hunt.

I don't doubt you at all, but one has to wonder why those monsters would be at all skittish. What could they possibly fear on the face of this earth? Have firearms been around long enough for them to evolve an inate fear of man? I can understand Cape buffalo being jumpy. Lions have been after them for a hundred thousand years. But historically what has killed crocodiles? Each other? Interesting. Must be an explanation.

 

[Franco]

I don't doubt you at all, but one has to wonder why those monsters would be at all skittish. What could they possibly fear on the face of this earth? Have firearms been around long enough for them to evolve an inate fear of man? I can understand Cape buffalo being jumpy. Lions have been after them for a hundred thousand years. But historically what has killed crocodiles? Each other? Interesting. Must be an explanation.

I do not know the answer to that. All I know is when you try to approach, they seem to have a "safe zone" which, when breached sends them into the water.

We were using bigger boats with motors, the natives are able to get much closer with their makoros. It was suggested we use one of them, but having been in one before - there was no way I was going to use one to go after a croc.

I have had them surface (head only) less than 10 yds from the boat while fishing, seemingly without any concern. Maybe they feel defenseless on land?

Any good croc experts out there?