I need a "Use Enough Gun" Gun. Suggestions?

Need vs want vs physical imperfections.......and ammo availability. Everyone has their own experiences, successes and failures with the African calibers. I had great success with DG hunting with my late brother's 375H&H. Do I want a larger caliber? YES. Why? Because I want one. Aside from the "want" aspect, consider your hunting goals. Do you want to get one of each of the Big Five, or Dangerous Seven, or more multiple DG kills through the years to come? If it's the former, just consider the cost and flexibility of the caliber with regard to other African game. If it's the latter, the large calibers can be considered an investment. I'm kind of like Freddie Mercury and Queens song "I want it All and I Want it Now".....even in my mid-seventies:cool:
 
To the original question, I’ll also vote for your 375 that you shoot well.

A 416 is a step up, but realistically you could hunt whales with either and not feel under gunned.
 
Howdy Gents/Ladies,

I'm set for my 1st safari next June. Dieter Prinsloo at Mattanjasafaris has graciously agreed to teach me to hunt DG along with a few others in Limpopo next year, placing him in same courageous as the fellow that taught me to fly some 15 years ago. I'm pursuing a Buff and some plains game and will likely get talked into a hippo. I've picked up a 375 H&H in a Model 70 that is shooting 1-hole groups for me with heavy loads.

Dieter is working with me to plan a 2027 Zim hunt for Trophy Elephant, Buff, and a Leopard. While he as assured me the 375 will do the job, I'm considering a power upgrade and would love experienced input. On my list are pushing the 375 to 375 WBY. I cannot find a person that has actually done that that speaks negatively. Plenty that speculate, but none with experience. Next on the list would be a 416. I really like both the Ruger and CZ in 416 Rigby. Terrific classic. A 416 Rem on a model 70 makes more sense of course. If brass were available, the 416 Ruger would be in the discussion mix. I do not shoot factory rounds in any of my guns. Any experience with 416 vs 458 win performance on Elephant? love to hear real world experiences. Same with 375 WBY.

I'm not generally recoil sensitive with 20 round bench sessions with the 375 being a norm. That said, I don't want to go too big and become the guy that flinches.

Looking forward to thoughts and thanks for the input

Kurt
A 458 will be the most resonable upgrade since you like to get another weapon. Preferably even a 450 Rigby. Then you never have to look back of your choice. A375 with a 458 will do everything you may want to do.
My 2c.
Krish
 
Does the bigger bore need to be a bolt or could it be a double?
Either will do depending on the range for DG. I prefer a Bolt action SINCE i could also use it for longer range non DG Games.
For one gun safari for both types of game i thing a bolt action 450 Rigby cant be beat.
Krish
 
To quote Pierre van der Walt in his book African Dangerous Game Cartridges:
“ 500 grns @2150 will kill any Dangerous Game with great effect”..
Now the method of delivery is your choice. The reason why many on this forum own a bunch of DG rifles…
 
The pro 375HH posts are heart-felt, sincere and usually subjective, emotional and based in concepts and beliefs. This is not a criticism of my fellow DG hunters. We all have our biased based opinions and are passionate about our hunting.

"My PH said the 375 HH is good", "Buffalo seldom charge", "Expert like it", etc.

Did you ever ask yourself why the .375 has such widespread support from the DG hunting community, especially the industry/business side?
Does it really kill buffalo as effectively as it's supporter say it does?

This reminds me of the myths about the Hornady dangerous game bullets. They were such a good bullet until they were not. Out of the blue they suddenly fell out of grace but they always were a poor cape buffalo bullet that was held in high acclaim by clever marketing alone.

When it comes to hunting cape buffalo, straight facts can save lives.
If a cartridge is rated as the minimum for hunting cape buffalo, doesn't that mean it should the last choice to hunt cape buffalo with not the first choice? I'm just sayin'.
 
The pro 375HH posts are heart-felt, sincere and usually subjective, emotional and based in concepts and beliefs. This is not a criticism of my fellow DG hunters. We all have our biased based opinions and are passionate about our hunting.

"My PH said the 375 HH is good", "Buffalo seldom charge", "Expert like it", etc.

Did you ever ask yourself why the .375 has such widespread support from the DG hunting community, especially the industry/business side?
Does it really kill buffalo as effectively as it's supporter say it does?

This reminds me of the myths about the Hornady dangerous game bullets. They were such a good bullet until they were not. Out of the blue they suddenly fell out of grace but they always were a poor cape buffalo bullet that was held in high acclaim by clever marketing alone.

When it comes to hunting cape buffalo, straight facts can save lives.
If a cartridge is rated as the minimum for hunting cape buffalo, doesn't that mean it should the last choice to hunt cape buffalo with not the first choice? I'm just sayin'.
Do you (or anyone on here) believe the .375 is MORE capable than 10 years ago given the advances in bullet technology and performance? It seems to have been the "minimum" for quite some time.

Do the bullet advancements beneft the .375 more than the 40 bores and above?

It seems to me, regardless of game, the larger, more powerful bullets (as a hasty generalization) can give you more room for error. A .22 in the ear hole? Could work. An RPG or 105 howitzer to the rear ham, probably works.
 
The pro 375HH posts are heart-felt, sincere and usually subjective, emotional and based in concepts and beliefs. This is not a criticism of my fellow DG hunters. We all have our biased based opinions and are passionate about our hunting.

"My PH said the 375 HH is good", "Buffalo seldom charge", "Expert like it", etc.

Did you ever ask yourself why the .375 has such widespread support from the DG hunting community, especially the industry/business side?
Does it really kill buffalo as effectively as it's supporter say it does?

This reminds me of the myths about the Hornady dangerous game bullets. They were such a good bullet until they were not. Out of the blue they suddenly fell out of grace but they always were a poor cape buffalo bullet that was held in high acclaim by clever marketing alone.

When it comes to hunting cape buffalo, straight facts can save lives.
If a cartridge is rated as the minimum for hunting cape buffalo, doesn't that mean it should the last choice to hunt cape buffalo with not the first choice? I'm just sayin'.
Did you actually read the article which ignited this thread? It was reposted a 2nd time on page 4.

A well-placed shot with a 400 or 500 gr 40 cal is certainly quite effective. And I'd rather be armed with 1 of the 40s in the event of a charge. But the data from that article makes it pretty clear - it's more common to be effective with the 1st (and clearly most important) shot out of a 375 or even a 9.3x62 than it is one of the larger bores - 80% of the clients hunting with 375 or 9.3 achieved 1-shot kills, compared with 55% of clients hunting with a 40 cal of one stripe or another.

That doesn't speak to the inefficacy of 40 cals, just to the lack of preparedness on the part of a lot of the clients. It is better to bring a 9.3 or 375, of which you are master, than a 40 cal of which you aren't a master.
 
The pro 375HH posts are heart-felt, sincere and usually subjective, emotional and based in concepts and beliefs. This is not a criticism of my fellow DG hunters. We all have our biased based opinions and are passionate about our hunting.

"My PH said the 375 HH is good", "Buffalo seldom charge", "Expert like it", etc.

Did you ever ask yourself why the .375 has such widespread support from the DG hunting community, especially the industry/business side?
Does it really kill buffalo as effectively as it's supporter say it does?

This reminds me of the myths about the Hornady dangerous game bullets. They were such a good bullet until they were not. Out of the blue they suddenly fell out of grace but they always were a poor cape buffalo bullet that was held in high acclaim by clever marketing alone.

When it comes to hunting cape buffalo, straight facts can save lives.
If a cartridge is rated as the minimum for hunting cape buffalo, doesn't that mean it should the last choice to hunt cape buffalo with not the first choice? I'm just sayin'.
Still awaiting your answer. You proclaimed your infallibility with a 375 and solids. I too appreciate "straight facts." I am sure the heartfelt and sincere DG hunters who appreciate a .375 would like to further benefit from your big bore experience. What rifle in what chambering were you using when your first shot induced those charges you have also experienced?
 
The pro 375HH posts are heart-felt, sincere and usually subjective, emotional and based in concepts and beliefs. This is not a criticism of my fellow DG hunters. We all have our biased based opinions and are passionate about our hunting.

"My PH said the 375 HH is good", "Buffalo seldom charge", "Expert like it", etc.

Did you ever ask yourself why the .375 has such widespread support from the DG hunting community, especially the industry/business side?
Does it really kill buffalo as effectively as it's supporter say it does?

This reminds me of the myths about the Hornady dangerous game bullets. They were such a good bullet until they were not. Out of the blue they suddenly fell out of grace but they always were a poor cape buffalo bullet that was held in high acclaim by clever marketing alone.

When it comes to hunting cape buffalo, straight facts can save lives.
If a cartridge is rated as the minimum for hunting cape buffalo, doesn't that mean it should the last choice to hunt cape buffalo with not the first choice? I'm just sayin'.
I already posted this once but here are the straight facts you’re not looking for.
 
The pro 375HH posts are heart-felt, sincere and usually subjective, emotional and based in concepts and beliefs. This is not a criticism of my fellow DG hunters. We all have our biased based opinions and are passionate about our hunting.

"My PH said the 375 HH is good", "Buffalo seldom charge", "Expert like it", etc.

Did you ever ask yourself why the .375 has such widespread support from the DG hunting community, especially the industry/business side?
Does it really kill buffalo as effectively as it's supporter say it does?

This reminds me of the myths about the Hornady dangerous game bullets. They were such a good bullet until they were not. Out of the blue they suddenly fell out of grace but they always were a poor cape buffalo bullet that was held in high acclaim by clever marketing alone.

When it comes to hunting cape buffalo, straight facts can save lives.
If a cartridge is rated as the minimum for hunting cape buffalo, doesn't that mean it should the last choice to hunt cape buffalo with not the first choice? I'm just sayin'.
The only time the 375 was considered marginal on buffalo was when bullets weren’t able to hold up to the velocity it produces. That’s a bullet problem more so than a caliber problem. Modern bonded and solid copper bullets have long since remedied that problem. Hornady DG bullets have never really been considered good as far as I can tell.
From my experience, if a person can’t kill a buffalo with a 375, it’s due to poor shot placement. A bigger caliber would likely not help that situation in any way.
I’ve used 416 and 458 caliber rifles on buffalo as well, and can only say that they all died fairly quickly when I put the bullet in the right spot.
 
Howdy Gents/Ladies,

I'm set for my 1st safari next June. Dieter Prinsloo at Mattanjasafaris has graciously agreed to teach me to hunt DG along with a few others in Limpopo next year, placing him in same courageous as the fellow that taught me to fly some 15 years ago. I'm pursuing a Buff and some plains game and will likely get talked into a hippo. I've picked up a 375 H&H in a Model 70 that is shooting 1-hole groups for me with heavy loads.

Dieter is working with me to plan a 2027 Zim hunt for Trophy Elephant, Buff, and a Leopard. While he as assured me the 375 will do the job, I'm considering a power upgrade and would love experienced input. On my list are pushing the 375 to 375 WBY. I cannot find a person that has actually done that that speaks negatively. Plenty that speculate, but none with experience. Next on the list would be a 416. I really like both the Ruger and CZ in 416 Rigby. Terrific classic. A 416 Rem on a model 70 makes more sense of course. If brass were available, the 416 Ruger would be in the discussion mix. I do not shoot factory rounds in any of my guns. Any experience with 416 vs 458 win performance on Elephant? love to hear real world experiences. Same with 375 WBY.

I'm not generally recoil sensitive with 20 round bench sessions with the 375 being a norm. That said, I don't want to go too big and become the guy that flinches.

Looking forward to thoughts and thanks for the input

Kurt
The 375 is a great all around choice. Will it kill an elephant, you bet. Would I hunt an elephant with one, no way, I used a 470 dR to take mine
 
Still awaiting your answer. You proclaimed your infallibility with a 375 and solids. I too appreciate "straight facts." I am sure the heartfelt and sincere DG hunters who appreciate a .375 would like to further benefit from your big bore experience. What rifle in what chambering were you using when your first shot induced those charges you have also experienced?
"... proclaim my infallibility with a .375 solid."
I don't remember saying that. If I did, I shouldn't have. ( My memory is getting so bad, that I can hide my own easter eggs.)

I would be surprised if you or others would benefit from my experience. I think that you have your minds pretty well made up about this. I think that you are doing fine and enjoying your hunting without my input. No one has to read a hunting blog to enjoy and excel at cape buffalo hunting.

But those few who are reading my post can enjoy our discussion without agreeing with me.
I appreciate your posts very much.

As best as I remember, I have had two good buffalo, one shot, kills with the NF CP Solid, and one where I only clipped one lung with NF CPS and it took about six hours to follow up.

That buffalo charged in the end. It toll 3 rounds fro the PH's 416 Rigby to find it. The rifle I used was my Winchester M70 .375hh with a 300 grain North Fork Cup Point Solid. I feel that the wound channel of a 375 HH solid is too small in diameter for cape buffalo. I think that I may have posted that somewhere here.

The other two charges were by buffalo that were not shot at, but came at us when we were following another another buffalo.

I actually had an old cow that charged us recently, that makes four charges in total, not three. This time we were in the truck!

It was kind of funny and I told the story here on AH recently. It was the last buffalo that I shot with my .577NE with Peregrine 700 grain Bush Master bullet.

This took place in April this year near Rustenburg, North West Province. It was our 8th. day of hunting and we were looking for our sixth buffalo. The PH explained that there was a 22 year old cow ( that is not a typo) in the herd that had a history of charging everything from hunters on foot to moving bakkies.

We were driving along in a open area that was about 80 acres. The PH, Gene and I were riding in the high seats in the back and the tracker, Georg was in the cab driving.

I had a little MP3 player that I was fiddling with at the time and not paying much attention to the bush. ( I had some recordings of buffalo nerd sounds on the MP3 that I was experimenting with.)

Meanwhile, Gene was on the job glassing into the edge of the bush about 200 yds south of us. There had been heavy rains there and the grass was green and nearly four feet tall in places. It was a beautiful area. I have poor hearing and double vision and a mild astigmatism. Also I was about to turn 80 years old, Some people might even say that I was past my prime. (LOL)

Gene signal for George to stop, then he turned to me with a grin on his face and said,
"Remember that old cow that I told you about this morning? the one that charges vehicles and likes to put dents in them? Well, she coming for us coming of us right now."

It took me a while to see her, she was about 150 yards off and coming at us as hard as she could go.

Gene, still grinning asked, "How do you feel about shooting her from the truck? I gave him the thumbs up. He whispered to George to turn the truck to face her and shut the engine off. I got ready which for me included wiping my eyes clear with one of those eye wipes. The old cow was still coming with all he might, when she got within about 100yds. Gene whispered, when she stops you can take your shot.

I told him at the beginning of the hunt that with my poor vision and my green dot Holodun sight I liked shoot no further that 60 yards. He had always provided nice close shots for me and I assumed
that's how this shot would work out. The old cow was still coming hard straight for us and when she was at about 80 yds. I was surprised when Gene made a calf bleat and she stopped and scowled at us with her head high.

Through the tall grass I could only see the top half of her body. What could go wrong. I really struggled with the sight picture and with cautious optimism I squeezed off the shot on my single shot break open rifle.

She was quartering slightly towards us and I hoped to put the 700 grain Peregrine bullet right where her shoulder joined her neck and a couple of inches above the tall grass.

At the shot I couldn't anything through the muzzle blast and recoil. I blinked a couple of time but she was gone.

"What did you do with my buffalo?" I asked trying to be funny.

We dove forward and there she was exactly where I shot her. The .577 NE bullet hit her where I hoped and penetrated all the way to the root of her tail. ( they say that the .577 does not have great penetration.)

Gene laughed and told me that she went down on the spot like she had been struck by lightening. I was very relieved! Gene videos the shot on his cell phone.

After the hunt I sold that rifle and will now use my TC Encore with a 50-110 Winchester barrel. ( it is actually a custom barrel in a true true .500 calibre as opposed to the original .510 barrel.) I have had perfect terminal performance with it on several cape buffalo using the .500 cal. CEB Raptor .410 grain bullet.

I hope that you enjoy this story as much a I enjoy telling it. brian
 
I already posted this once but here are the straight facts you’re not looking for.
375 fox.

I have that excellent article and enjoy it very much.
 
Did you actually read the article which ignited this thread? It was reposted a 2nd time on page 4.

A well-placed shot with a 400 or 500 gr 40 cal is certainly quite effective. And I'd rather be armed with 1 of the 40s in the event of a charge. But the data from that article makes it pretty clear - it's more common to be effective with the 1st (and clearly most important) shot out of a 375 or even a 9.3x62 than it is one of the larger bores - 80% of the clients hunting with 375 or 9.3 achieved 1-shot kills, compared with 55% of clients hunting with a 40 cal of one stripe or another.

That doesn't speak to the inefficacy of 40 cals, just to the lack of preparedness on the part of a lot of the clients. It is better to bring a 9.3 or 375, of which you are master, than a 40 cal of which you aren't a master.
Yes I read it several times. I agree with you that you need to "master' your rifle. I have mastered big bores up to .577NE. and like them.
 
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