How inaccurate a double rifle when?

[Rubberhead]

In theory this is correct. In application one may not notice much difference.
....

Your results may vary...

I agree especially for iron sight, double guns at 50 yards.. I will say what I already said, "there are a lot of variables" or noise. Some of the noise we try to compensate for and others that we ignore and hope they don't change the outcome of the shot. Noise like wind we try to compensate for. Barrel temperature, air density, or vertical angle between the sights and the barrel we usually ignore. I would say, though and without having had any training or knowing anyone that does, a military sniper is taught to try to repeat the same hold on the rifle every single time to keep his shots as reproducible accurate as possible. Again, my point is and was that there are a lot of variables. I guess what I implied or tried to imply was that we manage the manageable variables, and ignore the others.

MARK: This is an “Einstein” like theory that could only be “imagined” and has Never been demonstrated in any experiment….and Never could be. There has been demonstrations of “barrel whip: where a rifle barrel is laid in contact with a hard surface and then “fired”, the POI has been shown to change (usually Higher) due to the barrel vibrations being altered when resting on a hard surface - since barrel vibrations occur during every shot fired “any change” can alter POI - even placing a barrel band sling attachment on the barrel. But, I am Unaware of any test or demonstration being conduction on Your Einstein Theory of BIG STRONG SHOOTER Relativity and therefore think it is a “theory only” and highly unlikely to even change POI 1/1000 of an inch at 1000 yards. (That’s my BS theory and I can’t prove that either).

I would think it would be easy to take two shots from the same gun. One with the gun free in a gun cradle with only a string to pull the trigger and one where the end of the barrel is held in a gun vise.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

MARK: This is an “Einstein” like theory that could only be “imagined” and has Never been demonstrated in any experiment….and Never could be. There has been demonstrations of “barrel whip: where a rifle barrel is laid in contact with a hard surface and then “fired”, the POI has been shown to change (usually Higher) due to the barrel vibrations being altered when resting on a hard surface - since barrel vibrations occur during every shot fired “any change” can alter POI - even placing a barrel band sling attachment on the barrel. But, I am Unaware of any test or demonstration being conduction on Your Einstein Theory of BIG STRONG SHOOTER Relativity and therefore think it is a “theory only” and highly unlikely to even change POI 1/1000 of an inch at 1000 yards. (That’s my BS theory and I can’t prove that either).

Mark I would not agree with you or disagree all I know is i want my double to give me a nice group at 50 meters.

It had been a very long time since I sent anything to Ken Owens. The problem was with the rifle he corrected the problem developed the load. After 30 years my body has changed a bunch., strength, weight even height. One thing has not changed where that rifle hits.

Opinion, we need to start overthinking life and its problems.

Send it to a pro.

Lon

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

That was supposed to have read “stop overthinking life”

Sorry we are having a braaii with our Afrikaner friends.


Lon

 

[HankBuck]

Well my friend, I can demonstrate most of this in my back field on a 100 yard range. I did so yesterday to myself shooting .38 Super in my lightweight Accuracy X Commander size 1911. Shooting 125 gr loads at 1300 fps, if I "limp wristed" any shot the POI was at least 2" higher at 25 yards and more than double that at 50 yds.

Back in the day when I shot 1000 yard matches such as the Wimbledon Cup while on the Marine Corps Rifle Team, small changes in position such as the firmness of the shooting hand grip would the POI by a scoring ring or more. The same was true at the 600 yd line with match iron sighted M-14's. That's at least 1/2 MOA. Of course those were shot prone with a sling to stabilize the rifle rather than a bipod. Shooting 10-X or 20-X, depending on the match, isn't easy in Service Rifle or prone 1000 yd matches.

As you point out there are other factors that may affect POI such as barrel vibrations. But if all mechanical aspects (to include what a barrel WILL do each shot) are the same shot to shot, and our ammunition is loaded as perfectly as can be done, then it's application. Application involves a lot of human variables. Will any of this affect the POI of a rifle? Practice and find out! Consistency is the key to shooting small groups.

If a 2" group at 50 yds is good enough, and for a 500 Nitro I think so, then all of this is theory and nothing to worry about. The same is true of atomic theory, how an EMP functions and affects electronics, the human body, and so on. There are however some people that like to know what makes things tick!

Einstein? Hardly, more of a Captain Gadget and often a Captain Obvious...

Shoot well and be safe!

MARK, I will yield to your expertise and shooting experience - it is far superior to mine….I’m guessing you also got higher grades in school for math & physics courses than I did. I would like to confine my comments to shooting DG rifles and if a heavy, strong, fat man provides so much more opposition to recoil - as to change POI (all else being equal). I just can’t see that and would need a more scientific comparison before I’m convinced (don’t even know how to set up that type of experiment??). As you correctly point out - barrel pressure will change POI and barrel pressure comes from many subtle things (grip position, firmness etc..). But if I understand some of your comments correctly - a Skinny 120 lb. guy shooting off hand vs. a 250 lb guy shooting off hand (same grip firmness, hand position etc..) would result in different POI just because the recoil would be absorbed differently due to the weight difference between the two shooters? If that is correct and your assumption - then I don’t believe it results in a “measurable difference in POI”. But, I also don’t know how it could be tested. I have seen videos where a similar theory or Shotgun patterns was tested in a video. The “theroy“ was that if you swing a shotgun very very fast left to right while pulling the trigger - the pattern will change. The shooter fired a shot gun at a lake surface to see the pattern spread, then fired while “swinging shotgun very fast left to right” ….No “visible” change to the patterns size or shape as it hit the water. Not exactly ‘scientific’ but seem a practical demonstration. Anyway, the video’s point was that even with the FPS of a shotgun charge (1400fps) - about 1/2 the fps of most rifles. You could Not alter POI by swinging the barrel Left to right because it travels too fast down the barrel to change POI. Am I making “any sense”? I’ve re written this a few times and it’s starting to sound stupid to me - AND I SAW THE VIDEO !!

 

[HankBuck]

I agree especially for iron sight, double guns at 50 yards.. I will say what I already said, "there are a lot of variables" or noise. Some of the noise we try to compensate for and others that we ignore and hope they don't change the outcome of the shot. Noise like wind we try to compensate for. Barrel temperature, air density, or vertical angle between the sights and the barrel we usually ignore. I would say, though and without having had any training or knowing anyone that does, a military sniper is taught to try to repeat the same hold on the rifle every single time to keep his shots as reproducible accurate as possible. Again, my point is and was that there are a lot of variables. I guess what I implied or tried to imply was that we manage the manageable variables, and ignore the others.




I would think it would be easy to take two shots from the same gun. One with the gun free in a gun cradle with only a string to pull the trigger and one where the end of the barrel is held in a gun vise.

That would be interesting and I wouldn’t want to be near the butt end of that free swinging rifle

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

That was supposed to have read “stop overthinking life”

Lon, Thanks!
That is good advice but some of us enjoy learning the how and why of things.
Some are naturally gifted at being athletes, artists, or marksmen. Me, I had to work hard at darn near everything in life!

a Skinny 120 lb. guy shooting off hand vs. a 250 lb guy shooting off hand (same grip firmness, hand position etc..) would result in different POI just because the recoil would be absorbed differently due to the weight difference between the two shooters? If that is correct and your assumption - then I don’t believe it results in a “measurable difference in POI”. But, I also don’t know how it could be tested.

I didn't invent these theory's. But I've studied the works of those more expert than I. I am simply a student of marksmanship and the coaching thereof.

To quote Tom Selleck's "Jesse Stone" character, "The information is there, if you look for it."

@HankBuck For your above post, if a large man and a small woman present the same opposition to recoil then they should have the same POI for the same rifle.

Back in the day some 40 years ago, what is today the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion, Precision Weapons Section would build the match M-14's. When complete, those rifles will be mounted in a return to battery rest (RTBR) and groups would be shot at 300 yards. The RTBR was designed to:
1. Provide the same opposition to recoil for each and every rifle, for each group shot.
2. Emulate the recoil of a 170 Lb (if memory serves me) Marine in a prone position.
The RTBR would when the rifle was fired, push against a weighted sled that moved diagonally rearward and upward. I wish I had a photo of that thing!

If a rifle would not shoot at a 3" group from the RTBR, it was sent back to the shop. Those rifles that were significantly better shooters than 3" at 300 yards were reserved the our top dogs, Marines harder than woodpecker lips! Alas I was close but not in that esteemed group.

A Ransom Rest for handguns is similar in concept to the RTBR described above.
This is my .38 Super lightweight frame Accuracy X M1911 being tested in a Ransom Rest:

.

As I stated in my first post, this is theory for those interested.
For double rifles at 50 yards shooting minute of buffalo, one may not worry about it. But it one has say a 450/400 or 500/416 that they want to be able to make good shots on impala and warthogs at 100 yds just because, then this stuff may be applicable.

Also, if however one encounters problems with POI between shooters, or for the same shooter from one day to the next, then maybe one should start to pay attention to their shooting position(s). Two-time Olympic 300 meter rifle champion Gary Anderson told me that it all gets down to "mastering the fundamentals". One of those fundamentals is "follow through" or in technical terms, consistent opposition to recoil.

These posts are those for whom they may help.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Lon, Thanks!
That is good advice but some of us enjoy learning the how and why of things.
Some are naturally gifted at being athletes, artists, or marksmen. Me, I had to work hard at darn near everything in life!



I didn't invent these theory's. But I've studied the works of those more expert than I. I am simply a student of marksmanship and the coaching thereof.

To quote Tom Selleck's "Jesse Stone" character, "The information is there, if you look for it."
View attachment 589371

@HankBuck For your above post, if a large man and a small woman present the same opposition to recoil then they should have the same POI for the same rifle.

Back in the day some 40 years ago, what is today the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion, Precision Weapons Section would build the match M-14's. When complete, those rifles will be mounted in a return to battery rest (RTBR) and groups would be shot at 300 yards. The RTBR was designed to:
1. Provide the same opposition to recoil for each and every rifle, for each group shot.
2. Emulate the recoil of a 170 Lb (if memory serves me) Marine in a prone position.
The RTBR would when the rifle was fired, push against a weighted sled that moved diagonally rearward and upward. I wish I had a photo of that thing!

If a rifle would not shoot at a 3" group from the RTBR, it was sent back to the shop. Those rifles that were significantly better shooters than 3" at 300 yards were reserved the our top dogs, Marines harder than woodpecker lips! Alas I was close but not in that esteemed group.

A Ransom Rest for handguns is similar in concept to the RTBR described above.
This is my .38 Super lightweight frame Accuracy X M1911 being tested in a Ransom Rest:

.

As I stated in my first post, this is theory for those interested.
For double rifles at 50 yards shooting minute of buffalo, one may not worry about it.
If however one encounters problems with POI between shooters, or for the same shooter from one day to the next, then maybe one should start to pay attention to their shooting position(s).

Mark,

Isn’t stirring the pot fun? Then there is the theory of stirring clockwise versus counter clockwise. Of course their are those want to hold the spoon and turn the pot. The ribs are almost ready and the castle is ice cold.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Mark,

Isn’t stirring the pot fun? Then there is the theory of stirring clockwise versus counter clockwise. Of course their are those want to hold the spoon and turn the pot. The ribs are almost ready and the castle is ice cold.

Lon,

There is no pot stirring at all.

If I came into your camp I'd darn sure listen to you and do as you say when elephant hunting. Am I mean everything!

But, when a PH tells me something I either do not know or understand, I will ask for more information on it. For that I am not questioning their direction, but simply want to learn. I had a PH once who seemed to take offence to such questions. Needless to say he will never get my business again... A friend and fellow AH'er told me of a PH who is a walking encyclopedia. I want to hunt with him someday!

Accurate shooting and coaching shooters is, or at least at least long ago, was my camp. If one asks a question, I will explain why and provide references.

Go eat your ribs my friend!
Mark

 

[AimSmall]

Try different ammo.

See what happens.

Let us know!

 

[HankBuck]

Lon, Thanks!
That is good advice but some of us enjoy learning the how and why of things.
Some are naturally gifted at being athletes, artists, or marksmen. Me, I had to work hard at darn near everything in life!



I didn't invent these theory's. But I've studied the works of those more expert than I. I am simply a student of marksmanship and the coaching thereof.

To quote Tom Selleck's "Jesse Stone" character, "The information is there, if you look for it."
View attachment 589371

@HankBuck For your above post, if a large man and a small woman present the same opposition to recoil then they should have the same POI for the same rifle.

Back in the day some 40 years ago, what is today the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion, Precision Weapons Section would build the match M-14's. When complete, those rifles will be mounted in a return to battery rest (RTBR) and groups would be shot at 300 yards. The RTBR was designed to:
1. Provide the same opposition to recoil for each and every rifle, for each group shot.
2. Emulate the recoil of a 170 Lb (if memory serves me) Marine in a prone position.
The RTBR would when the rifle was fired, push against a weighted sled that moved diagonally rearward and upward. I wish I had a photo of that thing!

If a rifle would not shoot at a 3" group from the RTBR, it was sent back to the shop. Those rifles that were significantly better shooters than 3" at 300 yards were reserved the our top dogs, Marines harder than woodpecker lips! Alas I was close but not in that esteemed group.

A Ransom Rest for handguns is similar in concept to the RTBR described above.
This is my .38 Super lightweight frame Accuracy X M1911 being tested in a Ransom Rest:

.

As I stated in my first post, this is theory for those interested.
For double rifles at 50 yards shooting minute of buffalo, one may not worry about it. But it one has say a 450/400 or 500/416 that they want to be able to make good shots on impala and warthogs at 100 yds just because, then this stuff may be applicable.

Also, if however one encounters problems with POI between shooters, or for the same shooter from one day to the next, then maybe one should start to pay attention to their shooting position(s). Two-time Olympic 300 meter rifle champion Gary Anderson told me that it all gets down to "mastering the fundamentals". One of those fundamentals is "follow through" or in technical terms, consistent opposition to recoil.

These posts are those for whom they may help.

MARK: I’ve read your posts with interest and enjoyed them, you present a logical and well thought out opinion - thank you

 

[HWL]

HWL: True but then the barrel of your gun looks like sh-t forever too….like putting a Halloween Mask on a Beauty Queen. (But function is more important then form so I guess You are Right)

Muzzel of my .450/400...

HWL

 

[HankBuck]

Muzzel of my .450/400... View attachment 589376View attachment 589377View attachment 589378View attachment 589379
HWL

HWL: A Hookers legs are closer together then those 2 barrels, also why the clownish orange glow worm vs traditional bead? I would hope that rifle shoots sub MOA because it’s not getting married for its looks

 

[Tanks]

I can't argue with you. But, listen to the guy from Heym at about 2:30...

...

One thing you are forgetting is that by the time the rifle leaves the factory and/or sighted in by the client at a bench of some sort recoil already has been taken into account. It is not like shining a laser light through the barrel.

So, the difference between the big strong man holding the rifle tight vs the 120 lb weakling that lets the barrel rise should be negligible.

Look at the barrel rise difference on the first shot vs the second. Both of the bullets went where I aimed them.

 

[R eight]

R eight: I have No idea what you are saying so any comments I make are not going to be helpful or insightful. Per your post ie: “scope on/off does Not effect Zero? But DOES affect regulation?” I view the two as related. Also you can only shoot a 6” group at 50 meters but a 9” group at 200 yards “off hand”?? Shooting 9” Off Hand at 200 yards is some fine shooting.

It looks like I’ve done a poor job of explaining what is happening. As to zero and regulation being related? Well sort of but not exactly. I view zero as accuracy and regulation sort of like precision. So I think you can have both a zeroed rifle where the barrels are shooting apart (therefore precision low, but they impact roughly where you expected them to hit)
Maybe the below diagram will help.

As to shooting a 9” still plate at 200 yards whilst standing. Thank you for suggesting that is great shooting, although I think it might have been a bit of a dig. Anyway, I did say I hit it more often than not….so that’s not shooting a 9” group or better at 200 yards. But I was impressed.

And….my rifle with the scope attached and when using the ammunition with which it regulates is used is definitely capable of such accuracy and precision. The photo of the target below shows what the rifle is capable of.

I hope I have explained the situation sufficiently.

 

[HankBuck]

It looks like I’ve done a poor job of explaining what is happening. As to zero and regulation being related? Well sort of but not exactly. I view zero as accuracy and regulation sort of like precision. So I think you can have both a zeroed rifle where the barrels are shooting apart (therefore precision low, but they impact roughly where you expected them to hit)
Maybe the below diagram will help.

As to shooting a 9” still plate at 200 yards whilst standing. Thank you for suggesting that is great shooting, although I think it might have been a bit of a dig. Anyway, I did say I hit it more often than not….so that’s not shooting a 9” group or better at 200 yards. But I was impressed.

And….my rifle with the scope attached and when using the ammunition with which it regulates is used is definitely capable of such accuracy and precision. The photo of the target below shows what the rifle is capable of.

I hope I have explained the situation sufficiently.

R eight: Consistently shooting a 9” plate at 200 yrds. OFF HAND is good shooting with any rifle and very good with a big bore double rifle…Not many on this forum could do that - a few might even admit it…I know can’t. Even the writer “Jack O’Connor“ wrote that ‘A good rifleman can hit a dinner plate Off Hand out to 200 yrds’…I’m No Jack O’Connor.

 

[HWL]

HWL: A Hookers legs are closer together then those 2 barrels, also why the clownish orange glow worm vs traditional bead? I would hope that rifle shoots sub MOA because it’s not getting married for its looks

You are right, it's not your bitch, but the girl on my side....

HWL

 

[Rubberhead]

One thing you are forgetting is that by the time the rifle leaves the factory and/or sighted in by the client at a bench of some sort recoil already has been taken into account. It is not like shining a laser light through the barrel.

So, the difference between the big strong man holding the rifle tight vs the 120 lb weakling that lets the barrel rise should be negligible.

So I went from being totally wrong to just forgetful?

I didn't forget about that, I brought it up. Bwhahaha...

Congratulations on the fine elephant. I'm jealous.

 

[HankBuck]

You are right, it's not your bitch, but the girl on my side....

HWL

HWL — that’s Great !!

 

[Tanks]

So I went from being totally wrong to just forgetful?

...

No, because you were forgetful, you ended up being totally wrong.

 

[rookhawk]

What happens when you use a different ammo in a double rifle than the the type it's regulated with?
How much difference it makes under 60-70 yards where a typical DG hunt happens?

A lot. You'll probably be all over the place. The original double rifle powders were stranded cordite that no longer exists. The original bullets were usually jacketed softs or jacketed solids. The original velocity at the muzzle (not what a book says) was about 2050fps.

ALL of those are variables that are rarely true with modern loads. They may be monometal softs/solids. They probably are going 2150fps and then the question is at what barrel length due to the burn rate of their powder. They sometimes use a primer that is not civilian available to give an extra boost to ignition whereas other brands do not.

Bottom line, the odds of different loads from the same manufacturer as your regulated load may or may not regulate acceptably for close range work. Different manufacturer's loads will not regulate in your gun at all, with odds against it being 10:1 or 20:1.