How dangerous is dangerous hunting?

[Vintageguy]

I'm sure we don't want to turn this thread into another poll on captive bred lion hunting.

But let me add this, @yarettlopez, I've done both wild and captive bred lion hunts, and accompanied others on them. As far as the hunt goes, a tracking hunt - which a captive bred lion hunt almost invariably is - can be much more exciting than a baited hunt, which a wild lion hunt usually is. In the former you get to see the lion, often multiple times, and get in close for a shot. In a wild hunt you will generally sit in a blind once you've established that an eligible lion is coming to the bait, and you will wait for him, and the spotlight will be turned on (these hunts are often done at night, though that depends on local laws), and you will see the lion for a second and then shoot. I know which I prefer.

You will be hunting on the ground, tracking your prey, getting in close to an apex predator. It should be exciting - have a great time.

And I know you haven't, but if you are ever tempted to, don't. Apologize, that is.

You have confirmed what the conclusion I had arrived at concerning the style of the hunt through conversations with PH’s and what I’ve seen in countless videos of both captive bred and wild lions. The PH’s have all stated that the captive bred lions were more dangerous and tracking one up amounted to following until its had enough and makes a stand as opposed to the baiting and blind method with the wild ones.
I certainly wouldn’t dump on anyone who hunts CBL that way. If they were importable, my wife would jump at the chance. I told her that there would be no way I would go for it unless she put in the practice required, too dangerous if the hunter doesn’t hold up their end.
Thanks for chiming in with your experience.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Wild lion hunting at Dusk is highly recommended!

 

[C.W. Richter]

The level of danger is inversely proportional to how well you place the first shot.

 

[Hunt anything]

Amazing video, the guy that fell down, was he shot ? Incredible how fast a lion can be!!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I agree with @WAB, all hunting is potentially dangerous even before a shot is fired. Even being in a wildlife are is potentially dangerous. A few illustrations: on a game walk once, our group was too big and the guide was a dud. He walked us single file past a group of lion on the left not 20 yards off that he hadnt seen. The male stood up when half of the group was ahead of him and half behind. The lion just stood uneasily and assessed the situation, tail flicking etc. if he had come what was the guide supposed to do, shoot down the line?
Then on a buffalo hunt we bumped into a rhino close up unexpectedly, he wasnt happy either and I really thought he would come. Problem in that situation is that you virtually have to be on the end of his horn before you can justify the shot, with the deadly amount of expleaining and cost that would follow if indeed you lived.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I agree with @WAB, all hunting is potentially dangerous even before a shot is fired. Even being in a wildlife are is potentially dangerous. A few illustrations: on a game walk once, our group was too big and the guide was a dud. He walked us single file past a group of lion on the left not 20 yards off that he hadnt seen. The male stood up when half of the group was ahead of him and half behind. The lion just stood uneasily and assessed the situation, tail flicking etc. if he had come what was the guide supposed to do, shoot down the line?
Then on a buffalo hunt we bumped into a rhino close up unexpectedly, he wasnt happy either and I really thought he would come. Problem in that situation is that you virtually have to be on the end of his horn before you can justify the shot, with the deadly amount of expleaining and cost that would follow if indeed you lived.

I was reading the other day where Ian Nyschens bumped a rhino cow with a calf. He killed the cow in self defense then they had put down the calf. I can’t imagine the backlash for that in this day and age. Of course heaven and earth would be moved in order to save the calf

 

[375Fox]

I agree with @WAB, all hunting is potentially dangerous even before a shot is fired. Even being in a wildlife are is potentially dangerous. A few illustrations: on a game walk once, our group was too big and the guide was a dud. He walked us single file past a group of lion on the left not 20 yards off that he hadnt seen. The male stood up when half of the group was ahead of him and half behind. The lion just stood uneasily and assessed the situation, tail flicking etc. if he had come what was the guide supposed to do, shoot down the line?
Then on a buffalo hunt we bumped into a rhino close up unexpectedly, he wasnt happy either and I really thought he would come. Problem in that situation is that you virtually have to be on the end of his horn before you can justify the shot, with the deadly amount of expleaining and cost that would follow if indeed you lived.

Was the rhino in save valley? I’m sure it was unnerving but I think you’d be one of the lucky few who has bumped into a rhino in wild Africa today.

 

[One Day...]

I'm sure we don't want to turn this thread into another poll on captive bred lion hunting.

But let me add this, @yarettlopez, I've done both wild and captive bred lion hunts, and accompanied others on them. As far as the hunt goes, a tracking hunt - which a captive bred lion hunt almost invariably is - can be much more exciting than a baited hunt, which a wild lion hunt usually is. In the former you get to see the lion, often multiple times, and get in close for a shot. In a wild hunt you will generally sit in a blind once you've established that an eligible lion is coming to the bait, and you will wait for him, and the spotlight will be turned on (these hunts are often done at night, though that depends on local laws), and you will see the lion for a second and then shoot. I know which I prefer.

You will be hunting on the ground, tracking your prey, getting in close to an apex predator. It should be exciting - have a great time.

And I know you haven't, but if you are ever tempted to, don't. Apologize, that is.

You have confirmed what the conclusion I had arrived at concerning the style of the hunt through conversations with PH’s and what I’ve seen in countless videos of both captive bred and wild lions. The PH’s have all stated that the captive bred lions were more dangerous and tracking one up amounted to following until its had enough and makes a stand as opposed to the baiting and blind method with the wild ones.
I certainly wouldn’t dump on anyone who hunts CBL that way. If they were importable, my wife would jump at the chance. I told her that there would be no way I would go for it unless she put in the practice required, too dangerous if the hunter doesn’t hold up their end.
Thanks for chiming in with your experience.

Usual snickering comments duly dismissed (they do not bring much to the debate), I have always been quite fascinated by the debate, and I think that the argument is misplaced...

Block size...
From a purely hunting perspective, one of the real questions is the size of the block. If anything is shot on a 1,000 acre plot, whether it be a guaranteed 48" sable, 58" Kudu, 48" Buffalo, or "A grade" lion, it is not much of a hunt per my personal standards...

Tracking...
Since I am not interested in participating in the shooting of a guaranteed animal, I have never shot on a 1,000 acre plot.

What I have done is hunt in various fenced (because it is a legal requirement) properties in South Africa ranging from 20,000 acres to 50,000 acres; hunt in the unfenced mountains of the Karoo; and hunt in unfenced communal lands or similar designations.

In all cases some folks do the hunting on truck, and some even shoot from the truck where legal. Regardless of whether it is fenced or unfenced, animals are wild or bred, this too is not much of a hunt per my personal standards...

I do my hunting on foot, and I cannot tell any difference between tracking bred Buffalo in 20,000 Limpopo fenced acres, bred Kudu in Eastern Cape 50,000 fenced acres, wild Kudu in Eastern Cape 200,000 unfenced acres, or wild Elephant in 1,000,000 Zimbabwe unfenced communal land acres. The reality is that a day of tracking only covers a minuscule part of any such land.

Baiting...
Wild lion hunting nowadays is often a matter of either chance encounter, most of the time while driving, in which case the hunt is often started and done in a matter of minutes and does not involve much other that shooting; and more commonly baiting, in which case, again (and without dismissing the fascinating and engrossing art of selecting a bait site and the delicious angst of sitting in a blind), it does not involve much other than shooting.

So, whether there is more hunting, or less, in tracking a lion on foot in 20,000 fenced acres, or in sitting in a bait blind in 1,000,000 unfenced acres, is an interesting question...

Animal behavior...
Since releasing a drugged lion the day before the shooting is illegal, and walking to such drugged lion to dispatch him with bow or rifle is obviously not hunting, this is not what we are discussing here.

What are the behavior differences between a lion released 30 days ago on a 20,000 acres fenced property and that has been hunting to feed himself, or a buffalo that has roamed 50,000 acres for 6 months, and their wild counterparts, I do not have enough experience to say.

What seems relatively certain based on pros and clients reports alike, is that both generally try to avoid man, and both will fight if provoked.

In summary...
Assuming that the block is of decent size (e.g. 20,000 acres and more), and that the animal has been on it long enough to behave naturally (e.g. feed and roam) on it, the quality of the hunt, and the danger of it, is in my experience a lot what the hunter makes of it.

Reading Ruark, his wild lion hunting in 1950's Kenya wilderness, involved rolling off a Land Rover driving slowly by, waiting for it to get the required legal distance away, crawling a few yards, and shooting a digesting lion. it does not seem a lot more heroic to me than tracking on foot a bred lion on 20,000 fenced acres in Limpopo...

 

[booker]

It's all dangerous, you just plan for the worst and be a smart and knowledgeable as possible.
2 years ago while plains game hunting... a friend made a bad shot on a Gemsbok. Had to track this bastard 6 miles. During this track job we came in contact with a group of Buffalo and they were not happy to see us. All ran but one and it was our PH who well before it was an issue noticed the herd stopped the group and made a plan to avoid the big pissed off guy.
Had a guy I know hunting many years ago told me he had a lion walk through the lodge as they had lunch.
So even plains game hunting or chilling at the lodge can be dangerous. It just matters if you are smart enough not to put yourself in a bad position.
Have fun on your hunt, stay safe and be sure to post some pictures.

 

[Wiley64]

This question came up recently on a black bear hunt. In my opinion all hunting has some form of danger, carrying a rifle or even just climbing in a tree stand for deer there is no guarantee you will make it down. We have tons of rattle snakes here in Texas where I hunt. I was almost killed by a falling Canadian goose in a cut barley field in Canada last year. Anything can happen. It is the things you don’t expect that will get you dead. To me the added danger is what makes me want to do the big 5 so badly. I don’t know why.

 

[Brent in Az]

Dangerous game is considered "Dangerous", because the animals have the ability to turn you into an ugly stain on the African soil if something goes wrong.
No statistic can predict the outcome of a hunt.

 

[Tanks]

...

Animal behavior...
Since releasing a drugged lion the day before the shooting is illegal, and walking to such drugged lion to dispatch him with bow or rifle is obviously not hunting, this is not what we are discussing here.

What are the behavior differences between a lion released 30 days ago on a 20,000 acres fenced property and that has been hunting to feed himself, or a buffalo that has roamed 50,000 acres for 6 months, and their wild counterparts, I do not have enough experience to say.

What seems relatively certain based on pros and clients reports alike, is that both generally try to avoid man, and both will fight if provoked.

In summary...
Assuming that the block is of decent size (e.g. 20,000 acres and more), and that the animal has been on it long enough to behave naturally (e.g. feed and roam) on it, the quality of the hunt, and the danger of it, is in my experience a lot what the hunter makes of it.

Reading Ruark, his wild lion hunting in 1950's Kenya wilderness, involved rolling off a Land Rover driving slowly by, waiting for it to get the required legal distance away, crawling a few yards, and shooting a digesting lion. it does not seem a lot more heroic to me than tracking on foot a bred lion on 20,000 fenced acres in Limpopo...

In regards to lion, the current standard (feel free to pipe in and correct what I have read) is 7 days per SAPA.

https://sapredators.co.za/images/photos/SAPA-Final-Norms-and-Standards-For-Hunting-Oct2017.pdf

Their recommendation for enclosure is 400 sq. meters while being raised and 2,500 acres for the hunting area.

Pretty low standards compared to 30 days and 20,000 acres, though I would call that insufficient as well as a personal opinion (time not area). Lion density in Tanzania wild areas ranges from 3.3 to 15+ (at Parks) per 100km sq. (24K acres). Tanzanian study link is below for those interested.

http://wildlife-baldus.com/download/Tanzania%20lion%20Conservation%20Status.pdf

What's interesting is some outfitters advertising that they are one of the few that follow SAPA guidelines without letting prospecting clients knowing how woefully inadequate those guidelines really are.

At the end of the day it is up to the client. No one is going to know that his "lion trophy" hunt was a CBL back at home. The client will know and if he is satisfied with that, then more power to him.

 

[bowjijohn]

Working in the bush is always dangerous

there is a tendency not to notice - perhaps as a consequence of familiarity?

add hunting into the equation and the risk goes up

add dg into the picture and the risk is higher

then you start to include tourist hunters and the need to provide thrills and meet expectations into the equation and the risk starts to multiply rapidly

so yes - it is high risk for all concerned

 

[VertigoBE]

Without mingling myself too much into the CBL v Wild lion debate, plot sizes etc. just this:

I'm sure all would agree that the preferred way of hunting would be walk and stalk in endless completely wild and untouched country, the way we often picture it in our dreams, the way it is often portrayed in romantic novels about hunting in Africa. However all of this is moot today, as this is a fantasy. We can only approximate parts of it.

I for one, prefer tracking and stalking my quarry than sitting in a blind. The sitting in a blind I already know too well here in Europe. In Africa, I want to cover some miles and see the country side.

 

[375Fox]

Without mingling myself too much into the CBL v Wild lion debate, plot sizes etc. just this:

I'm sure all would agree that the preferred way of hunting would be walk and stalk in endless completely wild and untouched country, the way we often picture it in our dreams, the way it is often portrayed in romantic novels about hunting in Africa. However all of this is moot today, as this is a fantasy. We can only approximate parts of it.

I for one, prefer tracking and stalking my quarry than sitting in a blind. The sitting in a blind I already know too well here in Europe. In Africa, I want to cover some miles and see the country side.

I agree with point you are trying to make, but we need to be careful with the narrative. There are still huge wild areas left where it’s as real as it can be today, not yet fantasy, hopefully never will be. Although there are definitely fewer areas than in the past. I’ve seen too many justifications of intensive ranch hunting that say the wild areas no longer exist. NW Namibia being the most vast and nearly untouched area I’ve personally visited.

 

[Osama Mahdi]

Crossed path with big fat black mamba, that was dangerous enough for me.

 

[VertigoBE]

I agree with point you are trying to make, but we need to be careful with the narrative. There are still huge wild areas left where it’s as real as it can be today, not yet fantasy, hopefully never will be. Although there are definitely fewer areas than in the past. I’ve seen too many justifications of intensive ranch hunting that say the wild areas no longer exist. NW Namibia being the most vast and nearly untouched area I’ve personally visited.

I agree.

 

[Osama Mahdi]

Also, mosquitoes are the most dangerous species in Africa. They kill more people than any other species.
But danger elements is what makes it exceptional trip.

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

My DG game hunting mentor was a man of much hunting experience and wisdom. While hunting Cape buffalo with him in the Free State with a client he told me this. You can hunt buffalo 50 times in your PH career and never get charged, but he may very well charge you on the first charge and you had better be as prepared as you were on your first hunt to stop that buffalo in its tracks. There is no fake buffalo charge - it ends with one well placed shot or one dead or severally mauled pH or client - there are no other permutations to consider. Plan carefully, stay alert and stay scared - failure to achieve these rules and you’re on a one wat ticket to another world.
Lions should be called the king of fear.

 

[Rare Breed]

I think several are very right, and as clients if we do our part the hunt will go smoothly, I am very excited about my first trip to Africa and I am preparing the best I can.

I know that many do not agree with the lion hunt in SA but it is what I can pay at this time and if in the future my finances allow me I want a 100% wild lion, but with the increasingly strict laws I do not want lose the opportunity to hunt a lion.

Do not let anyone here or anywhere demean your SA lion hunt…enjoy every moment of it!!! If everyone had $30-$40,000 for just a lion then great…the majority of people do not. I have always found it is the quality of the hunt not just the size of the property…yes you would get a different experience hunting a lion in wide open country but that does not mean you will have a bad experience whatsoever