How dangerous is dangerous hunting?

When I read these posts specifically the “useful idiot” comments, I have to wonder here how many here would classify people like Theodore Roosevelt or others that helped protect land and establish game laws as a “useful idiot” instead of a forward thinker? Market hunting was legal in United States at one time, extermination of bison was legal, as well as many other activities. The persons participating in these activities also likely activity defended them as legal and making them money (or in CBL case affordable). Laws change. I’ll be glad when CBL shooting is finally banned and this argument will be gone permanently.
 
When I read these posts specifically the “useful idiot” comments, I have to wonder here how many here would classify people like Theodore Roosevelt or others that helped protect land and establish game laws as a “useful idiot” instead of a forward thinker? Market hunting was legal in United States at one time, extermination of bison was legal, as well as many other activities. The persons participating in these activities also likely activity defended them as legal and making them money (or in CBL case affordable). Laws change. I’ll be glad when CBL shooting is finally banned and this argument will be gone permanently.
Well, Teddy Roosevelt didn't try to ban hunting and while he was forward thinking, it didn't take much to see what he was trying to accomplish and why. Extermination of bison wasn't just legal, but it was a government goal as a form of war on the native Americans. While market hunting was legal, it wasn't sustainable and suffered from the economic principles established in public goods theory. CBL does not fall into that category and it is a very simply line to jump from getting rid of CBL to getting rid of CBB, CBS, CBI and CBD or any other animal you want to replace lion with.

Sure, you can have self sustaining herds of deer on an estate, but predators must be managed far closer than herbivores if one is to have a viable economic model. If you could run estate lions off a self-sustaining herd on private land, it would likely be done at a scale that eliminates almost everybody from offering something that fits the criteria. How many landowners have the hundreds of thousands of acres it would require to have such an operation? And would the sale of the lion hunts cover the costs in loss of game animals from the lions doing their own hunting? Even if it did, it would essentially be allowing land owners to sell wild lion hunts year round and the animal rights people would still be up in arms over it. In addition, it would substantially increase the danger of plains game hunts when one is hunting on property known to have an active lion pride roaming around, thus potentially impacting the economics of other aspects of hunting on said property.
 
... In addition, it would substantially increase the danger of plains game hunts when one is hunting on property known to have an active lion pride roaming around, thus potentially impacting the economics of other aspects of hunting on said property.

Every place I hunt, even for PG, has active prides of lions roaming around. Last August as we were leaving camp we saw some in the bushes some 30 yards away watching. We have also seen tracks around camp and elsewhere. We also almost bumped into a leopard while tracking elephants, backed off when it growled and let us know about its displeasure.

I still feel safe because we pay attention to our environment. Plus, this is why I hunt in wild areas and not some game ranch where everything (in DG hunts anyway) is scripted.
 
On my very first trip to Africa more than 15 years ago - for plains game only - I was concerned about elephants, buff, etc as we were out in the bush. My P.H. was not too worried - he lived among them every day. The third night in camp I woke in the middle of the night to a scratching sound at the wooden door of my thatch roof hut. The door was being pushed hard into its small toggle holding it shut. I lept to my feet and began holding the door shut with my body weight. It was a large mature male lion scratching his back on my door. When his itch was satisfied he simply walked through camp, growled a couple of times and went on his way. I didn't sleep much the rest of the trip. Also didn't tell the Minister Of Finance until years later. Not sure I would have been allowed back....
 
I still feel safe because we pay attention to our environment. Plus, this is why I hunt in wild areas and not some game ranch where everything (in DG hunts anyway) is scripted.
You are fine hunting on ranches with lions. I am too. My daughter, not so much. My wife, certainly not if I am going to have my daughter along with. My wife got mad at me once for not telling her about my hunting trips (she heard I hunted an elephant) and so I told her about my lion hunt. Not 2 minutes into the story, she stopped me and said she didn't want to hear any more. My oldest daughter doesn't want to hunt bushbuck because of the stories she has heard about them. Some people are just not as risk tolerant as most of the people who frequent this forum.
 
You are fine hunting on ranches with lions. I am too. My daughter, not so much. My wife, certainly not if I am going to have my daughter along with. My wife got mad at me once for not telling her about my hunting trips (she heard I hunted an elephant) and so I told her about my lion hunt. Not 2 minutes into the story, she stopped me and said she didn't want to hear any more. My oldest daughter doesn't want to hunt bushbuck because of the stories she has heard about them. Some people are just not as risk tolerant as most of the people who frequent this forum.

Bushbuck charge?
 
When I first joined this forum a little over two years ago I also had some "strong" feelings on what constituted an "ethical" hunt and what did not. For me it was walk and stalk and anything else was "shooting". For me, the idea of a driven boar hunt held as much interest as watching paint dry... I have moderated my views as I have come to realise that each to their own and to their own ability. Ethics is the best and worst thing in the hunting community. It is a subjective and not an objective thing! We all strive to be ethical and that is subjective to every single individual and varies from one method of hunting to another. Ethics unite us but also cause division.

If we are going to actually be honest with each other, the CBL started off in the worst possible way with drugged out lion stumbling all over the place in small pens. We ALL said WTF! that's not ethical. Then we said better if they weren't drugged. We all agreed. Then they needed bigger enclosures to be hunted on. We all agreed. Then we said they needed to be free for a longer period before hunting and we all agree that is better. BUT don't think for one second that CBL hunting is being banned because of the progress we have all agreed to. It is being banned because there is still enormous pressure from the anti's on government. Much like the problem we are facing with devastating over population of elephant. The anti's simply do not care about our ethics not matter how "perfect" we all become. Do you really think the government of ANY African country gives a flying fig what SCI or any other organisation approves of?

If you want to put CBL under the microscope lets see (some) of the pros and cons:

PRO:
No matter what you have been told it DOES relieve pressure on wild populations. Not necessarily due to hunting pressure but due to partially meeting the demand in the far east for body parts. THAT desire isn't going away soon so feeding the insatiable market is a way of protecting wild populations.

Conservation benefit: Any area set aside for CBL hunting is benefiting myriad other wildlife species as well as habitat and human encroachment.

Money generated is ploughed back into the pockets of the breeders (won't dispute that) but it is also used in the exact same way any other landowner uses money to protect his property and the game thereon.

The list goes on...

CONS:
Bad image of hunting in general and ammunition for the anti's. But then again, as stated above, do they really want any more ammo? ALL hunting is unacceptable to them.

The pinnacle of the hunting fraternity that seeks to enlighten us mere mortals will fracture the hunting community because they, in their "all knowing what's ethical and what's not" view will get everything banned that they don't deem right.

Lastly, I put it out there that many who think that CBL hunting is easy have probably never done a CBL hunt. They say it's like shooting fish in a barrel. This stance just shows ignorance on wild animal behaviour. A wild animal that MAY have become habituated is a very dangerous creature. Now you have a wild animal that is not afraid to approach you, in fact will probably do so when it sees you. Now you have a moving target and it is moving towards you, unlike a wild lion who 90% of the time moves away from you given the opportunity.

Ethics is a lot like integrity: beware the person who has to tell you about his integrity.

I'm sure each and every single one of us could pick apart the other and find something they don't find ethical. If we go down that road we will ALL become individuals and not a community.

IMHO!!!
 
when I started this post I never thought it would be so controversial, and I take a totally different path than I had thought.

I am a new hunter and I still have a lot to learn but I am sure that the only thing we do not need is to divide ourselves, we are already 1% of the hunters vs all the others to fight each other, the antis will never be satisfied no matter how ethical or correct is the hunt
 
when I started this post I never thought it would be so controversial, and I take a totally different path than I had thought.

I am a new hunter and I still have a lot to learn but I am sure that the only thing we do not need is to divide ourselves, we are already 1% of the hunters vs all the others to fight each other, the antis will never be satisfied no matter how ethical or correct is the hunt
Use your best judgement and don’t be swayed by chest thumpers. If you feel that your hunt is ethical than only you can decide. Whatever you do, remember, it’s a lion and they will kill you if you screw up.
 
The closer you get to dangerous game the more dangerous it gets. Potting a lion or buff or jumbo at 150 yards is hardly dangerous. Like others have said it is when the first shot goes wrong that the danger level really increases exponentially.

I would say that it answers a question we all have asked ourselves, especially those that haven't been a soldier / cop / etc. That question when the chips are down and death is charging towards me do I have it in me to stand or...

Put the first shot in the right place and you'll think "damn, that wasn't so bad"
 
...

I would say that it answers a question we all have asked ourselves, especially those that haven't been a soldier / cop / etc. That question when the chips are down and death is charging towards me do I have it in me to stand or...

Put the first shot in the right place and you'll think "damn, that wasn't so bad"

When, we were charged by an elephant some years ago, the PH told me afterwards with an incredulous inflection in his voice, "you took a step forward to shoot, most would have done the opposite". All I was doing was getting into my shooting stance as I was bringing the gun up. :ROFLMAO:
 
The closer you get to dangerous game the more dangerous it gets. Potting a lion or buff or jumbo at 150 yards is hardly dangerous. Like others have said it is when the first shot goes wrong that the danger level really increases exponentially.

I would say that it answers a question we all have asked ourselves, especially those that haven't been a soldier / cop / etc. That question when the chips are down and death is charging towards me do I have it in me to stand or...

Put the first shot in the right place and you'll think "damn, that wasn't so bad"
I would agree with this but the farther away the first shot is away from DG the greater chance for a poor shot, bullet deflection and other problems, turning up the danger scale way up.
 
I actually ate the sirloin from my lioness, which I figured I earned since she did actually charge at me multiple times. That was the last time I will eat lion. It had a strange flavor and odor, and I didn't finish it and even asked the wait staff to take it away because the smell was bothering me. I decided I don't want to eat any animal that will feed on carrion. But yes, I did eat lion. I suppose if it was kept in captivity and shot in captivity, then it would have likely not eaten rotten meat and may have tasted better. I will have to try again when I shoot a cheetah because they only eat fresh meat.



I know there are a lot of hunters that do just that in the USA but they use trail cams to identify the animals the week before deer season. I guess the main difference is that somebody else might come and get their deer, but they are doing something similar and probably wouldn't stop if they were the only ones hunting on the land where their chosen deer was.

Now, as for conservation value, let me say this. I hunted Arabian oryx in its native habitat. It was actually an SCI world first for my hunt and I am still quite proud of that hunt, spot and stalk with a bow in the sand dunes in the Arabian Peninsula. There were only three species on the property that could be hunted - the oryx and both sand and mountain gazelles. Those were not the only animals on the property though. The ranch was fenced to keep feral camels out as the camels will pull up plants by the root and eat the whole thing, leaving nothing for other animals. Once the camels were kept out, there was effective habitat for the oryx and gazelles, but also eagles, other birds of prey and normal birds, lizards, snakes and other wildlife. Even if the Oryx hunting has no conservation value for Oryx, what about all the other wildlife and the habitat it protects under the umbrella of the value of its hunting? Does a hunt only have conservation value if it saves exclusively that species or can one species being hunted save other species and let that give it conservation value?

Back to the lions, how many acres are devoted to CBL hunts? How many other animals live on those ranches? Do they have zero conservation value because some lions are getting bred and killed? All those lions are doing is replacing the revenue of photo tourists while at the same time reducing the ecological footprint because even a CBL hunt is going to generate more revenue than several photo tourists. If killing 2 rhinos saved 500 cheetahs, would we say that it has no conservation value for the rhino so it must be stopped? Many of these CBL ranches also have a lot of other wildlife that is expanding its range and populations and that is a good thing. I think the big picture here is that CBL is not detrimental to wild lions and that should be enough - especially when it is very easy to demonstrate the is conservation value in those hunts if you look at more than exclusively wild lions.

Most of the "damage" done by CBL is to the image of hunting in the eyes of people who also don't accept hunting wild lions or hunting in Africa by wealthy foreigners at all, regardless of the animals they are shooting. Hell, California wanted to ban the importation and possession of giraffe, sable and zebra trophies. Cecil was a wild lion. Those are hunted over bait. Wait, sorry, let me rephrase that with the lefty wording - "they are lured from their protected areas to be murdered by hunters with small penises to fulfill their homicidal tendencies and blood lust." But I am sure if we just change our hunting methods, they will be totally OK with hunting.
I am curious. When did this hunt on the Arabian Peninsula occur and in which country?
 
I am curious. When did this hunt on the Arabian Peninsula occur and in which country?

I hunted in Abu Dhabi just outside of Al Ain in February of 2019 and shot then world record Arabian Oryx, Sand Gazelle and Mountain Gazelle. I posted a hunt report here and submitted the photos and a hunt report to the SCI record book.

My hunt was with Barari Hunting and took place at the Telal Resort.
 
I hunted in Abu Dhabi just outside of Al Ain in February of 2019 and shot then world record Arabian Oryx, Sand Gazelle and Mountain Gazelle. I posted a hunt report here and submitted the photos and a hunt report to the SCI record book.

My hunt was with Barari Hunting and took place at the Telal Resort.
Very interesting. Thank you. Will search up the report. Been all over the Emirates back in the day, and assumed this hunt would likely have had to take place there.
 
Well this topic really is multifold and not given to easy answers. And yes it makes no sense to discuss hunting methods to answer the question "what is true hunting and what isn't" - what was deemed competely unethical 1890 -using scopes for example- is now quite normal.
But I would like to make two exceptions, if I may, to answer some questions aimed at me:
Firstly, not everything that is legal is legitimate and good sport. Using semi-automatic rifles for Big Game, for example (for me these weapons are unethical on any hunt, but that' s just my private opinion.) Secondly, to the question what enclosement might be to narrow: : True hunting always includes the possibility to end up without success- even for a whole safari for a good Leopard, for example. Therefore the game must be able to feed itself from the land where it lives, and it must be able to completely evade the hunter. Anything else, and much of the activities in SA, are just armed shopping.
 

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Hi Jay,

Hope you're well.

I'm headed your way in January.

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I know you're some distance from Vegas - but would be keen to catch up if it works out.

Have a good one.

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