How concerned should I be?

[Ontario Hunter]

Hopefully, you can resolve it amicably on Monday. If not, document a summary of discussion in an email to the PH/owner: "This will confirm our phone conversation of today's date ... blah, blah. ... Be advised this dispute is already a topic of considerable interest on Africa Hunting Forum [insert link to this thread]. I would hope for all concerned we can still find a better resolution."

Good luck.

 

[Rem280]

I believe thus is where I am. The problem is, if I pay it, I'm just a cuck who can be stepped-on/walked-on so who cares. I'm already bitter. I don't want to hang out with the PH nor be dependent on someone who obviously thinks I'm a doormat.

If I don't pay, and push them into honoring the original contract, then the PH will be bitter, and again, I'm not interested in spending time with someone who thinks I'm a jerk. I definitely don't want to be dependent on them.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I'm done with this company. The only question remaining is do they give me my deposit back? If so, I could forget the whole thing. I'm still going to be out $3k for airfare but not $8k.

Or, it gets a little bit nasty.

Thank you all very much for sharing your insights and experiences. I couldn't find anyone to partner up with so this trip is solo. This wonderful group of people on this wonderful forum is awesome and invaluable.

You guys are AWESOME!

Thanks again!

crossone

I am sure another outfitter could fit you in. Assuming you are flying to J-Berg first.

 

[DillonG]

My main concern is the timing. It is highly convenient to have a change this close to your hunt. I have not seen a safari contract yet, but I have negotiated contracts for work typically the 6-7 figure style. Negotiating can be done in several ways. If the contract language states that pricing can be changed at any time for any reason, that is not a great contract for the buyer. I personally wouldn’t sign that, but everyone has their own threshold for risk.

I agree with a lot of the other posts. Have the introductory call with the outfitter. Get something in writing if they agree to hold the price. An email does hold up legally if needed. A phone call can as well, but would need recorded. If you are insisting on maintaining the price, you can always let the outfitter know that you will agree. Let them know that you will be providing a review of your hunt on this forum and letting people know about the last minute price change. Most business people want to keep a positive reputation, so I think that is a good strategy.

Also remember, be as tactful as possible. You are expecting the outfitter to put on a great hunt after all.

 

[crossone]

I really appreciate you guys (and gals) giving me your advice and listening to my gripe.

I agree that the Outfitter's name should be shared with the rest of you (believe me, I would want to know as well) but I don't want to ruin anyone. I will say, that they're a small outfit and don't post here, so that should be some help.

Thanks again,

crossone

 

[Scott CWO]

I believe thus is where I am. The problem is, if I pay it, I'm just a cuck who can be stepped-on/walked-on so who cares. I'm already bitter. I don't want to hang out with the PH nor be dependent on someone who obviously thinks I'm a doormat.

If I don't pay, and push them into honoring the original contract, then the PH will be bitter, and again, I'm not interested in spending time with someone who thinks I'm a jerk. I definitely don't want to be dependent on them.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I'm done with this company. The only question remaining is do they give me my deposit back? If so, I could forget the whole thing. I'm still going to be out $3k for airfare but not $8k.

Or, it gets a little bit nasty.

Thank you all very much for sharing your insights and experiences. I couldn't find anyone to partner up with so this trip is solo. This wonderful group of people on this wonderful forum is awesome and invaluable.

You guys are AWESOME!

Thanks again!

crossone

I think you are correct but I think you should take a breath and just talk to the outfitter and politely explain your feelings. You seem to be riled up. Your response email was pretty rough considering you’re supposed to be hunting with them soon. Best to just be businesslike, not rude.

I wouldn’t automatically assume the outfitter has bad intentions without talking to him. His costs might have increased sharply and he’s trying to get his hunters to cover it, even though he shouldn’t. In 34 years in this industry I’ve never increased the price of a hunt after contracted but lots of businessmen aren’t the best at business. He could be a great PH but not much of a businessman. See if you can work it out. You seem to have went from 0 to 100 pretty quickly. Good luck!

 

[Scott CWO]

It’s straight forward on his website. He is definitely up front about the possibility of additional money that could be owed with rising costs year to year. A few hundred dollars wouldn’t be to big a deal but a couple thousand would be a different story

The problem is that most mule deer hunts take place on expensive private land leases and some landowners couldn’t give a damn about the outfitter and clients. On our hunts, we take a small $500 or $1000 deposit to just hold a spot. Once the hunt is a year or so out, we establish a price and contract. If the hunter wants to back out at this point, we give the small deposit back. I haven’t found a better way that is fair for everyone.

 

[Scott CWO]

Some of the guys on these outfitter threads that always take the approach to just cancel and find a different outfitter instead of working things out are being unrealistic and don’t understand contract law. If you’ve signed a contract, it is also binding on YOU, not just the outfitter. Basic contract law is that a contract is a two-way street with “consideration” on both sides or the contract is not a contract. As a client, your consideration is that you get the hunt services and the outfitter’s consideration is your money. Be careful what you sign. You can’t just cancel and expect a refund because the outfitter has saved you a limited opening on his schedule that he may not be able to rebook. African hunts are expensive and the market is small. Hunting is a seasonal business with a year’s worth of income being made in much less than a year for most outfitters. Outfitters also have to pay leases, concession fees, salaries and indirect cost whether you come or not. This feeling that I didn’t come on the hunt so I’m entitled to a 100% refund is not how it works.

Hunters also need to get a contract or at least some type of a written agreement from the outfitter before booking flights and not long after you send the deposit. A big part of the problem I discovered in the other thread about a SA outfitter on this site last week was no contract and also no contract before booking flights. As both a client and an outfitter, I see both sides. My father taught me that a business deal has to be good for both sides or it either won’t last or one side won’t be happy.

 

[Doubleplay]

Not right. Seems like outfitter is trying to take advantage of you.
If the price of things changed for him he should eat the difference and keep a good reputation.
You got the draw the line, it’s not about percentages it’s about principles.
I would never hurt with someone who’s trying to nickel and dime but unfortunately there are people like that.

 

[WAB]

As in the other thread, it’s not so much about what was done as how it was done. I’d take a deep breath, call the outfitter and lay out your concern. You should get a good sense as to whether it is a valid reason poorly communicated, or a shady business operator.

 

[crossone]

As in the other thread, it’s not so much about what was done as how it was done. I’d take a deep breath, call the outfitter and lay out your concern. You should get a good sense as to whether it is a valid reason poorly communicated, or a shady business operator.

This is almost true and the advice included is solid.

Thank you

 

[crossone]

Some of the guys on these outfitter threads that always take the approach to just cancel and find a different outfitter instead of working things out are being unrealistic and don’t understand contract law. If you’ve signed a contract, it is also binding on YOU, not just the outfitter. Basic contract law is that a contract is a two-way street with “consideration” on both sides or the contract is not a contract. As a client, your consideration is that you get the hunt services and the outfitter’s consideration is your money. Be careful what you sign. You can’t just cancel and expect a refund because the outfitter has saved you a limited opening on his schedule that he may not be able to rebook. African hunts are expensive and the market is small. Hunting is a seasonal business with a year’s worth of income being made in much less than a year for most outfitters. Outfitters also have to pay leases, concession fees, salaries and indirect cost whether you come or not. This feeling that I didn’t come on the hunt so I’m entitled to a 100% refund is not how it works.

Hunters also need to get a contract or at least some type of a written agreement from the outfitter before booking flights and not long after you send the deposit. A big part of the problem I discovered in the other thread about a SA outfitter on this site last week was no contract and also no contract before booking flights. As both a client and an outfitter, I see both sides. My father taught me that a business deal has to be good for both sides or it either won’t last or one side won’t be happy.

I mostly disagree with this entire post but I appreciate you taking the time to share it.

 

[crossone]

I think you are correct but I think you should take a breath and just talk to the outfitter and politely explain your feelings. You seem to be riled up. Your response email was pretty rough considering you’re supposed to be hunting with them soon. Best to just be businesslike, not rude.

I wouldn’t automatically assume the outfitter has bad intentions without talking to him. His costs might have increased sharply and he’s trying to get his hunters to cover it, even though he shouldn’t. In 34 years in this industry I’ve never increased the price of a hunt after contracted but lots of businessmen aren’t the best at business. He could be a great PH but not much of a businessman. See if you can work it out. You seem to have went from 0 to 100 pretty quickly. Good luck!

Thanks Scott. You're right. I am riled up.

I can come up with exactly ZERO ways in which this played out that were accidental.

 

[WAB]

Thanks Scott. You're right. I am riled up.

I can come up with exactly ZERO ways in which this played out that were accidental.

I’m really sorry it has fired you up this much. I do think you should talk to him and try to work it out. However, if you can’t get over it you are not going to enjoy what should be a fantastic adventure. If that is the case, you probably need to move on, but understand that doing so likely means losing your deposit.

 

[Scott CWO]

I mostly disagree with this entire post but I appreciate you taking the time to share it.

Probably 99% of outfitters keep deposits if someone cancels really late and they can’t rebook the spot. That’s why you see discounted cancellation hunts at times on this site. People are often happy to take a late notice cancellation hunt when it is discounted. Perhaps you haven’t hunted with outfitters much if this is your first trip to Africa? Almost all contracts have cancellation clauses with varying terms on refunds. Outfitting is a business. It’s different than just hunting with your friends and just deciding not to go.

 

[gearguywb]

As someone said earlier, see if another outfitter can accommodate your group during the same dates.

This whole issue stinks to me. Can/will there be a change due to price increase? Certainly, but it also warrants 1 on 1 communication to the customer to explain what/where/when/why they are asking for additional funds.

A trip like this is a major investment in time and money, and is meant to be a fantastic experience. This would leave a bad taste for me that I wouldn't want while I was there hunting and having a "great time"

 

[wildwilderness]

There are ways to possibly recoup the extra money on the back end, but generally at the risk of losing taxidermy if that doesn’t matter to you….

Not suggesting being unethical or anything- here are some thoughts-

You can pay the extra $1200 and call that the “tip” this works better if the outfitter is also the PH. Otherwise you can tell all those you would tip and show them the extra contract money and say hey I already paid the outfitter your tip money. This puts the problem back on the outfitter.

You can also discount the “trophy fees” after the fact if there is an arrangement to pay latter… just make sure you have a ride to the airport first!

Just be warned your trophies may not make it home if you with hold funds after the end of the trip. But at that point you do have some leverage since the operator will want the extra money. (But you have to be willing to not get the taxidermy…)

 

[wildwilderness]

I really appreciate you guys (and gals) giving me your advice and listening to my gripe.

I agree that the Outfitter's name should be shared with the rest of you (believe me, I would want to know as well) but I don't want to ruin anyone. I will say, that they're a small outfit and don't post here, so that should be some help.

Thanks again,

crossone

This makes absolutely no sense-

You don’t want to “ruin” an outfit- but you want to allow them to continue taking advantage of foreign hunters?

If it does not resolve You have the obligation to report! Just consider it ann honest review. The outfitter has decided themselves, not you out to get someone.

Otherwise I see it as enabling bad actors and you being complacent in the scams.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thanks Scott. You're right. I am riled up.

I can come up with exactly ZERO ways in which this played out that were accidental.

I agree. But give the outfitter the opportunity to escape graciously and correct the "mistake." He has your money.

I'm starting to appreciate how lucky I am to be dealing with a great guy over there. Last trip I asked him how much deposit I should wire. He said don't worry about it. "We'll settle up before you leave." Second trip at height of pandemic he only asked for $2K ... and bull buffalo was on the menu! They had massive cancellations that year so I shot eleven animals.

 

[crossone]

Final update. Spoke with the outfitter this morning. Luckily, my insomnia actually worked in my favor for once and I was awake at 2:44 this morning when they called (they forgot the time difference but it didn't matter). Everything became clear to them when I was able to get through to them that no warning or explanation was given for the price increase and I had to discover it on the funding request. They offered to pull the additional $1,200 which, apparently, was due to increased gov't fees and said they would cover these fees themselves.

I'm not going to say that increasing the final price 6-weeks before the hunt is acceptable, however, as I have stated many times, the additional $1,200 isn't a show stopper for me (it's 7% so for anyone on a $4k hunt, this would be a $280 increase). I only want to be treated fairly and honestly. Honesty and integrity are absolutes in all of my affairs. Mistakes are to be treated with grace, god knows how imperfect I am. Some of you have pointed out a few of my flaws in this thread and you aren't wrong.

After the outfitter realized that I had never received any warning of the price increase, and then realized that when I asked about the increase, I was given a very lame excuse of "Hunt prices have been updated for 2024, we sent you the new pricing brochure last month", they realized just how shady they're communications came through and said they will never let this happen again.

Bottom line, I'm going to Mozambique in September to hunt with them. I wish this whole event had never happened and if y'all want, I'll post stories and photos.

If the hunt goes great, I still won't recommend them.

I guess I would say that I'm tentatively optimistic enough to proceed.



Ontario Hunter:
I totally agree that having a great guy over there would be invaluable. I was hoping for the same.

Wildwilderness:
I agree with you. If you stick with the outfitters recommended on this site, you'll never cross paths with these people.

gearguywb:
You're not wrong. This stinks. Was really hoping to make a friend on this hunt, now it's been overshadowed by a slimy business transaction.

Scott CWO:
I know that outfitting is a business, and not an extremely profitable one. I also know that solid contracts are important when it comes to business. I also know that the legal mechanisms for a US citizen to enforce contract law on a South African company doing business in Mozambique are so far beyond my financial abilities that the contracts are, for all intents and purposes, totally unenforceable and meaningless. Just a quick Google search will illustrate what folly trying to recover $5k would be. You would be very lucky to get your $5k back if you spent $100k on lawyers and 10 years doing it.

In my opinion, these outfitters live on their reputations with a small degree of oversight provided by their licensing boards and professional organizations.

WAB:
Thank you for your insights on this. After hearing their side, I'm making a judgement call to trust them. However, it's only a feeling and I have very limited confidence in my decision.

To everyone else:
Thank you all for the advice. Lots of great opinions and options. Unfortunately, I hitched my wagon up to someone who doesn't completely share our values. If I had been more insistent on getting an outfitter recommended by this forum's members, I could have avoided this entire mess. Lesson learned!

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Mekaniks]

Final update. Spoke with the outfitter this morning. Luckily, my insomnia actually worked in my favor for once and I was awake at 2:44 this morning when they called (they forgot the time difference but it didn't matter). Everything became clear to them when I was able to get through to them that no warning or explanation was given for the price increase and I had to discover it on the funding request. They offered to pull the additional $1,200 which, apparently, was due to increased gov't fees and said they would cover these fees themselves.

I'm not going to say that increasing the final price 6-weeks before the hunt is acceptable, however, as I have stated many times, the additional $1,200 isn't a show stopper for me (it's 7% so for anyone on a $4k hunt, this would be a $280 increase). I only want to be treated fairly and honestly. Honesty and integrity are absolutes in all of my affairs. Mistakes are to be treated with grace, god knows how imperfect I am. Some of you have pointed out a few of my flaws in this thread and you aren't wrong.

After the outfitter realized that I had never received any warning of the price increase, and then realized that when I asked about the increase, I was given a very lame excuse of "Hunt prices have been updated for 2024, we sent you the new pricing brochure last month", they realized just how shady they're communications came through and said they will never let this happen again.

Bottom line, I'm going to Mozambique in September to hunt with them. I wish this whole event had never happened and if y'all want, I'll post stories and photos.

If the hunt goes great, I still won't recommend them.

I guess I would say that I'm tentatively optimistic enough to proceed.



Ontario Hunter:
I totally agree that having a great guy over there would be invaluable. I was hoping for the same.

Wildwilderness:
I agree with you. If you stick with the outfitters recommended on this site, you'll never cross paths with these people.

gearguywb:
You're not wrong. This stinks. Was really hoping to make a friend on this hunt, now it's been overshadowed by a slimy business transaction.

Scott CWO:
I know that outfitting is a business, and not an extremely profitable one. I also know that solid contracts are important when it comes to business. I also know that the legal mechanisms for a US citizen to enforce contract law on a South African company doing business in Mozambique are so far beyond my financial abilities that the contracts are, for all intents and purposes, totally unenforceable and meaningless. Just a quick Google search will illustrate what folly trying to recover $5k would be. You would be very lucky to get your $5k back if you spent $100k on lawyers and 10 years doing it.

In my opinion, these outfitters live on their reputations with a small degree of oversight provided by their licensing boards and professional organizations.

WAB:
Thank you for your insights on this. After hearing their side, I'm making a judgement call to trust them. However, it's only a feeling and I have very limited confidence in my decision.

To everyone else:
Thank you all for the advice. Lots of great opinions and options. Unfortunately, I hitched my wagon up to someone who doesn't completely share our values. If I had been more insistent on getting an outfitter recommended by this forum's members, I could have avoided this entire mess. Lesson learned!

Thanks again everyone!

That’s great and glad it worked out!

We have a saying at work “communication is key to our success…. and failure”

I truly believe that 99% of the strife that occurs regarding safaris has to do with communication. Outfitters need to communicate what they are selling and hunters need to communicate what exactly what it is that they expect.
And when questions arise from either party almost every thing can be answered with some direct and honest communication…..

Have fun and happy hunting. I look forward to your report.
Cheers