Hotchkiss Rifle

[Franco]

I've noticed some of you referencing 45-70 caliber ammo and rifles. I was going through one of my dad's old gun safes and decided to see what was in the back row. There were some old Springfields, a couple Sharps, and a Winchester-Hotchkiss; I figure some of you might know something about this rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hotchkiss designed the world's first breechloading rifle barreled artillery piece. It was first used in combat at the Battle of Bear Paws near Chinook, Montana in October of 1877. The US Army used it to pound Nez Perce Indians during the only siege of the American Plains Indians Wars. Plains Indians were typically too elusive for seige warfare to be effective. In this case Crow scouts for the Army got to the Nez Perce ponies before they could escape or fight back.

 

[Franco]

Hotchkiss designed the world's first breechloading rifle barreled artillery piece. It was first used in combat at the Battle of Bear Paws near Chinook, Montana in October of 1877. The US Army used it to pound Nez Perce Indians during the only siege of the American Plains Indians Wars. Plains Indians were typically too elusive for seige warfare to be effective. In this case Crow scouts for the Army got to the Nez Perce ponies before they could escape or fight back.

Thanks.

From the looks of this rifle - it was in that battle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thanks.

From the looks of this rifle - it was in that battle.

Can you post a photo? I'd be interested to see it. Another interesting story re the Nez Perce War. The Indians fled Pacific Nortwest for their sometime hunting/trading grounds in Montana with Army in hot pursuit. They roundly whipped troops at Big Hole then proceeded through Yellowsrone Park to try and meet up with Crow Indians in Eastern Montana. Crow would not help them so they turned towards Canada. Outside Billings at Cottonwood Canyon the Army finally caught up with them again. Poker Joe instructed warriors to cover for the band as it escaped north through the canyon. At more than five hundred yards one warrior started picking off cavalry horses with a weapon the troops thought was an artillery piece from the boom. Their commander ordered them to pull back and the Indians escaped. The "cannon" was actually a Whitworth rifle given to the Nez Perce by a sympathetic British rancher in Idaho. During the Civil War General Stonewall Jackson was killed by a Union sniper with a similar scoped Whitworth rifle.

 

[Franco]

Can you post a photo? I'd be interested to see it. Another interesting story re the Nez Perce War. The Indians fled Pacific Nortwest for their sometime hunting/trading grounds in Montana with Army in hot pursuit. They roundly whipped troops at Big Hole then proceeded through Yellowsrone Park to try and meet up with Crow Indians in Eastern Montana. Crow would not help them so they turned towards Canada. Outside Billings at Cottonwood Canyon the Army finally caught up with them again. Poker Joe instructed warriors to cover for the band as it escaped north through the canyon. At more than five hundred yards one warrior started picking off cavalry horses with a weapon the troops thought was an artillery piece from the boom. Their commander ordered them to pull back and the Indians escaped. The "cannon" was actually a Whitworth rifle given to the Nez Perce by a sympathetic British rancher in Idaho. During the Civil War General Stonewall Jackson was killed by a Union sniper with a similar scoped Whitworth rifle.

Yes - it may take me a week or so before I'm back to where the safe is located.

There's an old Marlin 32-40 as well.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Can you post a photo? I'd be interested to see it. Another interesting story re the Nez Perce War. The Indians fled Pacific Nortwest for their sometime hunting/trading grounds in Montana with Army in hot pursuit. They roundly whipped troops at Big Hole then proceeded through Yellowsrone Park to try and meet up with Crow Indians in Eastern Montana. Crow would not help them so they turned towards Canada. Outside Billings at Cottonwood Canyon the Army finally caught up with them again. Poker Joe instructed warriors to cover for the band as it escaped north through the canyon. At more than five hundred yards one warrior started picking off cavalry horses with a weapon the troops thought was an artillery piece from the boom. Their commander ordered them to pull back and the Indians escaped. The "cannon" was actually a Whitworth rifle given to the Nez Perce by a sympathetic British rancher in Idaho. During the Civil War General Stonewall Jackson was killed by a Union sniper with a similar scoped Whitworth rifle.

My mistake. Jackson was shot by his own troops. Union General John Sedgwick was picked off by a Confederate sniper using a telescopic Whitworth rifle.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Can you post a photo? I'd be interested to see it. Another interesting story re the Nez Perce War. The Indians fled Pacific Nortwest for their sometime hunting/trading grounds in Montana with Army in hot pursuit. They roundly whipped troops at Big Hole then proceeded through Yellowsrone Park to try and meet up with Crow Indians in Eastern Montana. Crow would not help them so they turned towards Canada. Outside Billings at Cottonwood Canyon the Army finally caught up with them again. Poker Joe instructed warriors to cover for the band as it escaped north through the canyon. At more than five hundred yards one warrior started picking off cavalry horses with a weapon the troops thought was an artillery piece from the boom. Their commander ordered them to pull back and the Indians escaped. The "cannon" was actually a Whitworth rifle given to the Nez Perce by a sympathetic British rancher in Idaho. During the Civil War General Stonewall Jackson was killed by a Union sniper with a similar scoped Whitworth rifle.

To refresh your history a bit. General Jackson was killed returning to his lines by his own troops which were using predominantly enfield rifles.

There were 2 confirmed Northern Generals killed by Confederate snipers using Whitworth rifles. There were several more brevet ranks presumed or confirmed to have been killed or were shot and later died by regular soldiers and snipers that had Whitworth rifles.

P.S. You were faster to correct your historical error.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

To refresh your history a bit. General Jackson was killed returning to his lines by his own troops which were using predominantly enfield rifles.

There were 2 confirmed Northern Generals killed by Confederate snipers using Whitworth rifles. There were several more brevet ranks presumed or confirmed to have been killed or were shot and later died by regular soldiers and snipers that had Whitworth rifles.

Yep. I made the correction already. Jackson was hit three times and eventually died of pneumonia eight days later in a plantation manager's house that's still standing. One bullet retrieved from his body was 68 caliber. I'll have to see what period rifle fired those.

Edit: Would have been either 1822 or 1835 pattern Springfield musket. Definitely not a sniper gun!

 

[Ridge Runner]

Yes - it may take me a week or so before I'm back to where the safe is located.

There's an old Marlin 32-40 as well.

Question: Is it a Marlin 32-40; 44-40 or 32-20? It will interesting to see photos of the rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Question: Is it a Marlin 32-40; 44-40 or 32-20? It will interesting to see photos of the rifle.

I have a 40-60 Model 1881 and a 40-65 Ideal tong tool reloader worth almost as much as the rifle. 40-65 Winchester is essentially the same cartridge as 40-60 Marlin.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I always thought 40-60 Marlin (or 40-65 Win) would make an excellent DGR cartridge. In a Siamese Mauser or double rifle it could be gassed up and very effective thumper. Problem might be finding someone to make the barrels and bullets. 45-70 brass can easily be necked down to 40 caliber. Hmmm. My buddy has two Siamese Mauser actions that aren't doing anything but collecting dust. I'll have to think about this.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Yep. I made the correction already. Jackson was hit three times and eventually died of pneumonia in a plantation manager's house that's still standing. One bullet retrieved from his body was 68 caliber. I'll have to see what period rifle fired those.

The weapon was: Pattern 1853 Enfield, .67 cal., whether by bullet or by ball is a debate. The surgeon who pulled the fatal shot from Jackson's body called it a "bullet", insinuating a mini ball. However, the Confederate troops that fired on Jackson and his party were primarily armed with smoothebore Enfields, which could be loaded with conical - mini ball - aka hollow base "bullet" or with round ball.

I had to go back and review my historical notes as I thought it was a 58 or 60 cal mini ball. Because most rifles, predominantly around this time Northern rifles were 58 cal rifle barrel using .577 mini or maxi, thin hollow base conical bullets. The hollow base allowed the bullet to flare sealing it tight against the barrel, sealing off the gases. Thereby unlike a round ball a "patch" was no longer necessary.

Then comes the debates over the paper cartridge and the paper being the patch for both round ball and conical bullets. And the paper being unevenly wadded up as it's pushed down the barrel contributing even more to the inaccuracy and limited range of smoothebore rifles.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The weapon was: Pattern 1853 Enfield, .67 cal., whether by bullet or by ball is a debate. The surgeon who pulled the fatal shot from Jackson's body called it a "bullet", insinuating a mini ball. However, the Confederate troops that fired on Jackson and his party were primarily armed with smoothebore Enfields, which could be loaded with conical - mini ball - aka hollow base "bullet" or with round ball.

I had to go back and review my historical notes as I thought it was a 58 or 60 cal mini ball. Because most rifles, predominantly around this time Northern rifles were 58 cal rifle barrel using .577 mini or maxi, thin hollow base conical bullets. The hollow base allowed the bullet to flare sealing it tight against the barrel, sealing off the gases. Thereby unlike a round ball a "patch" was no longer necessary.

Then comes the debates over the paper cartridge and the paper being the patch for both round ball and conical bullets. And the paper being unevenly wadded up as it's pushed down the barrel contributing even more to the inaccuracy and limited range of smoothebore rifles.

I think you mean smoothbore muskets not rifles. Curious if the Whitworth sniper rifles would be patched or paper cartridge? Probably patched as rapid fire was not an issue.

Minie ball/bullet was definitely an improvement for musketry. The ball would not be spinning like a rifle bullet but at least it wasn't bouncing down the barrel before leaving the muzzle at some side or the other at the crown = ball similarly traveling in some direction or other downrange.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The weapon was: Pattern 1853 Enfield, .67 cal., whether by bullet or by ball is a debate. The surgeon who pulled the fatal shot from Jackson's body called it a "bullet", insinuating a mini ball. However, the Confederate troops that fired on Jackson and his party were primarily armed with smoothebore Enfields, which could be loaded with conical - mini ball - aka hollow base "bullet" or with round ball.

I had to go back and review my historical notes as I thought it was a 58 or 60 cal mini ball. Because most rifles, predominantly around this time Northern rifles were 58 cal rifle barrel using .577 mini or maxi, thin hollow base conical bullets. The hollow base allowed the bullet to flare sealing it tight against the barrel, sealing off the gases. Thereby unlike a round ball a "patch" was no longer necessary.

Then comes the debates over the paper cartridge and the paper being the patch for both round ball and conical bullets. And the paper being unevenly wadded up as it's pushed down the barrel contributing even more to the inaccuracy and limited range of smoothebore rifles.

According to Wikipedia, Pattern 1853 Enfield was 0.577" caliber. At least one of the bullets that hit Jackson was 68 caliber and therefore from an older model Springfield musket. Because the older pattern Springfields predated evolution of Minie ball in 1843, I would think it was probably a ball not a bullet. But it certainly would have been possible to cast a 68 caliber Minie.

Edit: Minie ball bullet is named after the Frenchman inventor. Note the spelling.

 

[Boone66]

I think you mean smoothbore muskets not rifles. Curious if the Whitworth sniper rifles would be patched or paper cartridge? Probably patched as rapid fire was not an issue.

Mini ball/bullet was definitely an improvement for musketry. The ball would not be spinning like a rifle bullet but at least it wasn't bouncing down the barrel before leaving the muzzle at some side or the other at the crown = ball similarly traveling in some direction or other downrange.

Mini balls were designed and used in rifled muskets. The bullets were undersized for easy fast loading when the barrels were fouled, then the skirt would expand the bullet that would fill the grooves and scrap out the fouling. A really interesting bullet design as the bullets didn't actually have grease groves , but were their to help stabilize the bullet in flight.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Mini balls were designed and used in rifled muskets. The bullets were undersized for easy fast loading when the barrels were fouled, then the skirt would expand the bullet that would fill the grooves and scrap out the fouling. A really interesting bullet design as the bullets didn't actually have grease groves , but were their to help stabilize the bullet in flight.

Rifled muskets ... interesting. That must have been a brief technological development between patched rifles/smoothbore muskets and breech loading repeater rifles. A lot happened in just a few decades ... but nothing compared to armaments advancements at the turn of 20th century.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Jackson could have been shot by one of five different variants of 69 caliber Springfield rifles made between 1816 and 1850. The gun was almost certainly either 1840 or 1843 models. Because the projectile was 69 caliber (if the surgeon measured it accurately), it almost certainly was Minie bullet, not round ball. Round balls fired out of smoothbore Springfield muskets were 65 caliber undersize to fit patch or wadding. Earlier variants might have been remachined for rifled barrels but there were problems with pressure. Springfield muskets made after 1840 had thicker barrels that could be modified to rifled as needed. Apparently, there was already some experimenting with faster muzzle loading rifles and bullets before Minie's development in 1843.

 

[Red Leg]

Just love watching a Wikipedia duel.

Back to the OP's original question. I am fairly sure he did not find a breechloading canon in the back of the safe.

Designed after the War Between the States, the Model 1888 was adopted in limited numbers by both the US Navy and US Army. It was the first bolt action adopted by the US military and fired the standard rifle loading of the 45-70. The Army dumped it rather quickly and stayed with the 1873 Springfield, though the Navy maintained it. With the advent of smokeless powder, both services adopted the M1895 Lee Navy.

They have some collector value. Depending on original condition and whether carbine or rifle, they can bring $2-6K. I would not shoot it.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I think you mean smoothbore muskets not rifles. Curious if the Whitworth sniper rifles would be patched or paper cartridge? Probably patched as rapid fire was not an issue.

Aahh Damn!...you went and did it....this is going to be a long thread.

For those interested in learning a bit of history you might enjoy this long thread. For those not interested in learning a bit of trivia, I won't hold it against you.

The term paper cartridge relevant to the Civil War era isn't the same as what we consider to be paper cartridges today.

The "paper cartridge" during the Civil War was: think of it like this:

Using a piece of cigarette rolling paper, replace rolling tobacco in the paper with rolling a "charge" of powder, place at one end a round ball or a mini ball or a maxi ball, then tightly roll the paper and "glue" the edges together. Next "fold" or tightly twist the open end to seal the powder inside. Thus a "paper cartridge".

To use the "paper cartridge": bit, tear, cut the "fold" or twisted end and dump the powder down the barrel. Next place the paper into the barrel with the ball or "bullet" end at the muzzle. Using the ramrod push "ram" the paper and ball down the barrel seating the paper and ball against the powder charge. Finally cock the hammer and cap (or prime the pan, if using a flintlock). The firearm is ready to fire.

This "paper cartridge" enabled the shooter to more quickly reload his firearm(s) vs using the more time consuming method of measuring a charge, pooring the charge into the barrel, pulling out generally cloth material patching material over the muzzle, placing the ball on top and "thumbing" the ball into the muzzle, followed by either using a short start to start the ball down the barrel; [or just using the ramrod], last using the ramrod to push the ball down tightly against the powder charge.

Another form of "speed loader" that was used was the ball board: using any size relatively flat rectangular piece of wood, size depending on the caliber of rifle and how many pre pacthed balls they wanted readily available. Bore multiple holes into the piece of wood, with adequate spacing between the holes so the wood doesn't split or break. Each of the holes should only be big enough to snuggly hold a pre lubed, pre patched round ball.

To use: pour a measured charge down the barrel, place a pre patched ball located in the ball block over the muzzle and either using a short starter or the ramrod push the patched ball down the barrel seating the patch and ball against the powder charge.

The problem with using these crude "paper cartridges" is after several firings, paper residue would build up making it harder and harder to reload.

Rifled barrels were more prone or rather quicker to succumb to the paper residue build up because of the rifling thus making frequent barrel cleaning a necessity. Stopping to clean the barrel in the heat of battle could be fatal.

Smoothebores were still susceptible to paper fowling but could fire a few more rounds before the barrel needed to be cleaned.

What is a musket?

The consensus on the term musket, although it generally refers to having a smoothebore, actually it refers to all muzzleloading firearms.

There are basically 2 types of smoothebore long guns: Rifle Guns and Fowler Guns.

The rifle gun means it is not a short barrel gun, "pistol" ( nor revolver). The rifle gun unlike the fowler gun has 2 sights consisting of 1 rear sight and 1 generally a "blade" type front sight.

The fowler gun has only 1 front sight, generally a "bead" type sight.

Once rifling of the smoothebore barrel was started the term "rifled gun" or "rifled" was used to differentiate the smoothebore bore rifle from the rifled bore rifle.

 

[Red Leg]

Aahh Damn!...you went and did it....this is going to be a long thread.

For those interested in learning a bit of history you might enjoy this long thread. For those not interested in learning a bit of trivia, I won't hold it against you.

The term paper cartridge relevant to the Civil War era isn't the same as what we consider to be paper cartridges today.

The "paper cartridge" during the Civil War was: think of it like this:

Using a piece of cigarette rolling paper, replace rolling tobacco in the paper with rolling a "charge" of powder, place at one end a round ball or a mini ball or a maxi ball, then tightly roll the paper and "glue" the edges together. Next "fold" or tightly twist the open end to seal the powder inside. Thus a "paper cartridge".

To use the "paper cartridge": bit, tear, cut the "fold" or twisted end and dump the powder down the barrel. Next place the paper into the barrel with the ball or "bullet" end at the muzzle. Using the ramrod push "ram" the paper and ball down the barrel seating the paper and ball against the powder charge. Finally cock the hammer and cap (or prime the pan, if using a flintlock). The firearm is ready to fire.

This "paper cartridge" enabled the shooter to more quickly reload his firearm(s) vs using the more time consuming method of measuring a charge, pooring the charge into the barrel, pulling out generally cloth material patching material over the muzzle, placing the ball on top and "thumbing" the ball into the muzzle, followed by either using a short start to start the ball down the barrel; [or just using the ramrod], last using the ramrod to push the ball down tightly against the powder charge.

Another form of "speed loader" that was used was the ball board: using any size relatively flat rectangular piece of wood, size depending on the caliber of rifle and how many pre pacthed balls they wanted readily available. Bore multiple holes into the piece of wood, with adequate spacing between the holes so the wood doesn't split or break. Each of the holes should only be big enough to snuggly hold a pre lubed, pre patched round ball.

To use: pour a measured charge down the barrel, place a pre patched ball located in the ball block over the muzzle and either using a short starter or the ramrod push the patched ball down the barrel seating the patch and ball against the powder charge.

The problem with using these crude "paper cartridges" is after several firings, paper residue would build up making it harder and harder to reload.

Rifled barrels were more prone or rather quicker to succumb to the paper residue build up because of the rifling thus making frequent barrel cleaning a necessity. Stopping to clean the barrel in the heat of battle could be fatal.

Smoothebores were still susceptible to paper fowling but could fire a few more rounds before the barrel needed to be cleaned.

What is a musket?

The consensus on the term musket, although it generally refers to having a smoothebore, actually it refers to all muzzleloading firearms.

There are basically 2 types of smoothebore long guns: Rifle Guns and Fowler Guns.

The rifle gun means it is not a short barrel gun, "pistol" ( nor revolver). The rifle gun unlike the fowler gun has 2 sights consisting of 1 rear sight and 1 generally a "blade" type front sight.

The fowler gun has only 1 front sight, generally a "bead" type sight.

Once rifling of the smoothebore barrel was started the term "rifled gun" or "rifled" was used to differentiate the smoothebore bore rifle from the rifled bore rifle.

The only thing that I would add to a very thorough description was that the hollow base idea conceived by Minie was to allow the use of a bullet of smaller diameter than the bore to offset some of the fowling problem (and facilitate speed of reload). After two or three rounds, early military rifles like the Baker had to have the bullets practically hammered down the bore.

Even the earliest breechloaders like the original Sharps used the paper "cartridge" you describe, and closing the breech sheered off the end exposing the powder for the separately loaded percussion cap.