Holland & Holland double rifles....off face after little use..?

German or British engineering? If I were going to buy a sports car that I would drive hard for 200,000 miles over ten years, like I have my trusty Ford F-150, it sure as heck would not be a Jaguar, as beautiful as they are. No, make mine a BMW or maybe a sporty Audi. After all, those Krauts build a heck of a machine!
Had to smile at your last paragraph here @Mark A Ouellette
So a few years back we brought a Jaguar XJ 300.
Man was that one comfortably car, could out corner anything in a similar style.
But what a bloody lemon. By the time we got rid of it we had paid for it twice over in repair costs.
Ummm now I’ll point out that the Jaguar XJ (X300) is a full-size luxury saloon car manufactured by Jaguar Cars between 1994 and 1997. It was the first Jaguar XJ produced entirely under Ford Motor Company!
Guess good Old Ford was living up to their name of Fix Or Repaired Daily……
(really need to ask the guys for a stirring emoji :unsure: :LOL:)

By the way a very good book to read is James Hollands “Normandy 44, The battle for France“
His Synopsis on weapons and equipment used by both sides in that bloody conflict is very interesting. Most of the German stuff was “Over engineered“!

In the meantime I’ll ask my Gunmaker about the above Holland op headline. He did his apprenticeship with them before going out on his own. So will have first hand experience & knowledge on the subject. I’ll comeback on what he says.(y)
 
I’m going to show my ignorance on double rifles, I’ve never owned one and most likely never will: but what is ”off face”?
When the barrels start to become loose from the action flats or "Face" (hence the term). This is caused by wear on the the hinge pin or barrel joint.
@Hunt anything you can usually tell if you hold the shotgun/rifle whilst closed side on up to a light. You will see light between the barrels and the action if it’s off the face. A good gunsmith can bring them back on and tighten the action again.
 
Side by side shotguns can do this too.
Any firearm that hinge open can come off the face...its due to wear. Its starting to be seen a lot more here in the UK with the rise in popularity of driven clay days.
You can fire upwards of 500 rounds in one day. Heap of fun but hard on your guns. My SO4 has gotten so hot that I've burnt me fingers load in the shells.
The best bit though is to steal the birds from the guns either side of you, very frowned on a driven bird shoot but most encouraged here.
This article is not bad in describing the dark arts of re-jointing.

Still waiting to hear back from my gunmaker.
 
Hi Rookhawk,
I am not going to comment about any other PH, but since you have hunted with Liesl and myself. I would in the strongest terms disagree with you about how we maintain, firearm, roofing, vehicles and the hundreds of other pieces of equipment necessary to running a safari lodge and camp.

Our thatch on both our lodge is rejuvenated every 5 years. This costs about $25,000.00.
All vehicle are serviced every 5,000 ks and completely checked bumper to bumper on a weekly basis. No tyre tube is repaired it is replaced.

Firearms? Every firearm that we own is properly cleaned and checked for mechanical flaws. I will not tolerate any mechanical defects in our firearms. Company owned client firearms are maintained the same way. Sometimes I want to cry when I see a rifle of ours that has been used by certain clients.

We do our best with what we have to work with.
P.S. All of our dogs are up to date on their vaccinations.

@Tokoloshe Safaris while you may now be an African, your maintenance sensibilities are very American. You're sort of a black swan in Africa.

The local PHs always give me a hard time about my guns and maintenance in general thinking I'm some sort of OCD psychopath.

I had a friendly argument with a very good PH about shooting sticks. I didn't pull any punches, I was clear as I could be without being a jerk. Please load my shooting sticks, yours are going to damage the rifles. Yeah yeah. One of the days, they unloaded my sticks and he had his. I mentioned: "by the way, your sticks did $1500 in damage to my rifle, the cost of steaming out the dents, recutting the checkering, and putting a london oil finish back on the gun. He was in disbelief that giant gouges destroy the value of guns. Indeed, the gun was sold for a $1500 reduction in price when I upgraded to a better gun with the proceeds. That's pretty typically African.

In fact, I've had no less than a dozen guns in my presence in Africa that they wanted my help to repair that were so far gone, they would have had ZERO value in the USA. They couldn't fathom that the guns were destroyed as they thought they were just fine. They were in what NRA grading would call 30% condition.

Another PH was adamant that cleaning rifles is harmful. His claim was that lubricants attract sand and grit to the gun so he had only cleaned his gun 2x in 35 years. Of course it was unreliable as well, having had the stock cracked at the magazine well, and his ammo having insufficient crimp coupled with "topping off" on the round count dozens of times, the internal magazine had powder in it along with a lose bullet and a jammed up magazine spring. The 458WM cartridges were reloaded so many times that they had swelled cases. These are fairly typical PH scenarios.

Another scenario that is a very common one is the PH's arguing that you should always shoot the back trigger first on double rifles. The reason they give is to avoid doubling the gun. The actual problem is the guns are in such disrepair that the front trigger is way too sensitive and the right barrel is so shot out that the left barrel is the more accurate one due to decades of neglect.

Once I brought a gunstock to Africa for a PH that jumped out of a tree and landed on his rifle, breaking the gun. (you'd think one's source of livelihood and safety would be something treated with more care?) When I arrived at camp ready to install the stock on a PH's rifle in which he had his license for a decade, he was unaware of how to use a fine chisel, or sandpaper, had no proper tools, and figured he'd use a coin to tighten the bottom bolts if he could find a coin. His ability to guide my hunt was predicated on me getting his gun functional of course, so he was betting my hunt on my ingenuity. I completed the inletting of the stock by candlelight using tools I made in a pinch and the turnscrews I brought with me in my emergency stash, but it was par for the course.

Once I was in croc and hippo infested waters on the Zambezi, not far from where the PH had his fishing boat sunk by a hippo a few years earlier. The power tilt on his outboard went out and he had no tools on the boat with us stuck on a sandbar halfway to Zambia. Realizing the tilt went up but not down, it was likely the solenoid (i'm not a mechanical person, but this is a pretty basic diagnosis). I proceeded to show him how to remove the cowling from the outboard, find the solenoid, and use a rusty screwdriver to bridge the points on it to lower the outboard motor. So there you have it, city-slicker client that never had shop class is showing a 30+ year PH basic outboard motor troubleshooting out of survival necessity. (generally, a boater would check these things at a dock before taking on a client, no?)

I don't think any of things apply to you, but they are common scenarios amongst Zim PHs whether we're talking about guns, tools, automobiles, generators, boat motors, or even their homes. It's not an issue of affluence at all that I'm referencing either, its a mindset that something isn't in need of service until its completely broken. The exception to this generally are the "old guard" that grew up on farms and had reasonable mechanical skills back in Rhodesia, but the younger group grew up on small properties with lots of servants leaving them somewhat helpless in the bush when things happen other than DG charges occur.
 
@Tokoloshe Safaris while you may now be an African, your maintenance sensibilities are very American. You're sort of a black swan in Africa.

The local PHs always give me a hard time about my guns and maintenance in general thinking I'm some sort of OCD psychopath.

I had a friendly argument with a very good PH about shooting sticks. I didn't pull any punches, I was clear as I could be without being a jerk. Please load my shooting sticks, yours are going to damage the rifles. Yeah yeah. One of the days, they unloaded my sticks and he had his. I mentioned: "by the way, your sticks did $1500 in damage to my rifle, the cost of steaming out the dents, recutting the checkering, and putting a london oil finish back on the gun. He was in disbelief that giant gouges destroy the value of guns. Indeed, the gun was sold for a $1500 reduction in price when I upgraded to a better gun with the proceeds. That's pretty typically African.

In fact, I've had no less than a dozen guns in my presence in Africa that they wanted my help to repair that were so far gone, they would have had ZERO value in the USA. They couldn't fathom that the guns were destroyed as they thought they were just fine. They were in what NRA grading would call 30% condition.

Another PH was adamant that cleaning rifles is harmful. His claim was that lubricants attract sand and grit to the gun so he had only cleaned his gun 2x in 35 years. Of course it was unreliable as well, having had the stock cracked at the magazine well, and his ammo having insufficient crimp coupled with "topping off" on the round count dozens of times, the internal magazine had powder in it along with a lose bullet and a jammed up magazine spring. The 458WM cartridges were reloaded so many times that they had swelled cases. These are fairly typical PH scenarios.

Another scenario that is a very common one is the PH's arguing that you should always shoot the back trigger first on double rifles. The reason they give is to avoid doubling the gun. The actual problem is the guns are in such disrepair that the front trigger is way too sensitive and the right barrel is so shot out that the left barrel is the more accurate one due to decades of neglect.

Once I brought a gunstock to Africa for a PH that jumped out of a tree and landed on his rifle, breaking the gun. (you'd think one's source of livelihood and safety would be something treated with more care?) When I arrived at camp ready to install the stock on a PH's rifle in which he had his license for a decade, he was unaware of how to use a fine chisel, or sandpaper, had no proper tools, and figured he'd use a coin to tighten the bottom bolts if he could find a coin. His ability to guide my hunt was predicated on me getting his gun functional of course, so he was betting my hunt on my ingenuity. I completed the inletting of the stock by candlelight using tools I made in a pinch and the turnscrews I brought with me in my emergency stash, but it was par for the course.

Once I was in croc and hippo infested waters on the Zambezi, not far from where the PH had his fishing boat sunk by a hippo a few years earlier. The power tilt on his outboard went out and he had no tools on the boat with us stuck on a sandbar halfway to Zambia. Realizing the tilt went up but not down, it was likely the solenoid (i'm not a mechanical person, but this is a pretty basic diagnosis). I proceeded to show him how to remove the cowling from the outboard, find the solenoid, and use a rusty screwdriver to bridge the points on it to lower the outboard motor. So there you have it, city-slicker client that never had shop class is showing a 30+ year PH basic outboard motor troubleshooting out of survival necessity. (generally, a boater would check these things at a dock before taking on a client, no?)

I don't think any of things apply to you, but they are common scenarios amongst Zim PHs whether we're talking about guns, tools, automobiles, generators, boat motors, or even their homes. It's not an issue of affluence at all that I'm referencing either, its a mindset that something isn't in need of service until its completely broken. The exception to this generally are the "old guard" that grew up on farms and had reasonable mechanical skills back in Rhodesia, but the younger group grew up on small properties with lots of servants leaving them somewhat helpless in the bush when things happen other than DG charges occur.

I think you should write a book about your adventures @rookhawk :)
 
So I heard back from my gunmaker today about the above question.
The question that I asked him was.
"In your time with H&H how many double rifles did you see that had come off the face?
Also in total since you have left?"
He came back with "None".
Since I was waiting for a delivery I gave him a quick call. Which was very interesting.
He recounted a story when working for Purdey of a brand new double that had come off of the face!
The gun had just come back from being regulated and the maker had cleaned and oiled it and then but it in his rack. Ready for the next stage.
The manager had come into the work shop and taken the gun out without telling the maker to give it a final test gun before it was to be sent to the client.
(Brand new just built.....cant remember how long that takes but I'm sure some one here will have and approximant time line).
Anyway Manager drops two rounds in and is promptly stuck on his ass. Comes back in to the work shop with this gun off the face. Blaming the maker. Maker said my rack why did you take it without telling me? I'd have told you that I'd just cleaned and oiled it and that it would need a dry swab.
(They leave them with oil in because there never sure when next they will get back to them).
So the answer is one.
He also said that the proof house 'used' to use round dipped in oil to proof the guns until Europe said no more of the dark arts you make up proper proof rounds.
I know that this is just one guy. But he did his time and his work is sound he makes and repairs guns. I snapped a side lock spring on a Thursday and was flying out on a Monday...He gave me a call on the Friday night with the words "You shall go to the ball"!

Guess you guys better remember to dry swab eh :LOL: :S Topic:
 
Firearms? Every firearm that we own is properly cleaned and checked for mechanical flaws.
I was for ower 20 african safaris (and Im on my way to my next, an self-guided one) and I had never seen an PH like Lon (an real gentleman) who has sutch an prof. equipment (even in details). Espacially his guns are great. For example his great original Rigby is an dream.
 
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Yes, but you don’t just have a double rifle. You have a HEYM.
I was in close connection with Heym, Im a friend/hunting-partner of the company chief (and the master-gunmaker) and I had many adventures with Heym. I had seen dozend of hard used DG doubles, many witch had shoot 2.000 rounds, used for years without oiling or cleaning, used for nailing (realy!), pp. ...
You can be sure, this guns are great, the best that you can get in the double rifle class 15.000 - 30.000 dollars and nearly "un"-destroyeble."
 

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