Holland & Holland double rifles....off face after little use..?

Before the first World War, Holland & Holland was using Mauser 98 actions. From 1919-1957, they gave you an option of having your rifle built with either the Mauser 98 action or the Pattern 14 Enfield action. From 1957-1981, they were using whatever salvaged military surplus Mauser 98 action which they could get their hands on. Sometimes out of sheer desperation, they would resort to building rifles on Mauser 66 actions (I have seen 2 such specimens over the years, both in .458 Winchester Magnum). From 1982 onwards, they started using various Mauser Model 98 actions depending upon who was supplying them at the time (like FHZ or Waffen Prechtll).
View attachment 538080
This is from their 1958 catalog. Observe the red note on the top righthand corner, which informs the customer that Holland & Holland has already run out of Pattern 14 Enfield actions to build their magazine rifles on, by 1957.

That is very interesting. I was first in the Holland & Holland factory in the early ‘90’s. The wood room was enough to make you salivate. With regard to bolt action actions, they had crates of vintage ‘98 actions waiting for builds. At their rate I production, I suspect that they are still working their way through those crates.
 
That is very interesting. I was first in the Holland & Holland factory in the early ‘90’s. The wood room was enough to make you salivate. With regard to bolt action actions, they had crates of vintage ‘98 actions waiting for builds. At their rate I production, I suspect that they are still working their way through those crates.
Yes, WAB. Starting from 1982, Holland & Holland started getting access to more Mauser 98 actions.
 
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I have on a Danish store page seen H&H built of Sako and Husqvarna 1900 actions also. So something went on that prevented mor3 of the 98 actions.
 
I'm perplexed by this post, it's incredible what one can learn in a "fun" forum.
I have a heym 88b with 2 sets of barrels, a 375h&h and a 470NE bought not so long ago and I'm delighted with it, but from what I'm reading I'll have to go from happy to lucky.

it is a real pleasure to read you
 
@Mark A Ouellette what is that standing tripod rest you have there? I'd love to have something similar but I haven't seen anything around that is even remotely similar.
 
Side by side shotguns can do this too.
I know, unfortunately. My poor grandson’s 12 gauge Webley & Scott Model 700 had become off-face after the young man spent the last 2 years firing Winchester Super X 36Grm #4s through it. Since these shotguns have integral non-removable hinge pins, they are extremely difficult to repair when they get off-face. Fortunately, modern TIG welding techniques saved the day and the shotgun is now as tight as ever. I advised the young man not to shoot anything heaver than 32Grm cartridges through it. And no size larger than #6.
IMG_20230606_162002.jpg
 
I can’t speak to the Holland and Holland in particular, but it’s not uncommon for even high quality good condition British double shotguns to go off face with continuous use. I have owned a fair number few over the years and more then a few had to sent off to be put back on face.

I could see why it would happen more frequently with Sidelocks like the H&H Royal given that they are not as durable as a Boxlock action. A triple lock A&D action with the greener cross bolt is pretty bomb proof.
 
Occationally I have heared this rumour...or shall I say murmuring about Hollands going off face.. Is there any truth in this..? And if so...what models..?

I do not post this to offend anyone...only interested in the truth..

Really good question. If I had to assign cause, the reason is that there are just more H&H guns out there than most other brands and they were typically (but not always) higher grades that the authors generally wrote about, so tales of their exploits and maladies were over-published.

How I'd go about breaking this down is as follows:

1.) Big floppy red shoes are for clowns. Clowns buy 458WM double rifles. (and 416s, and any other rimless) They ALL fail eventually because the ejectors have tiny pins hoping to grab the belt. On their best of days with a clean gun and a cool temp hunt, you might get ejection. The fact H&H made a bunch of them (Did they actually make them, or did schmucks convert guns to them when they couldn't find the correct rimmed ammo in the 1960s?) At any rate, clown guns deliver clown results.

2.) PHs are not gun maintainers. Feel free to give me the exceptional case of a PH that is great with maintenance, but the stereotype is 98% true a a rule. Guns going off face exists everywhere. In America, I box up a gun and for $200 they tig weld up the hook, dress it down, and put it back on face. That doesn't exist in Africa, they just keep shooting dangerous guns. I can't tell you how many PHs reply when I call them on their terrible guns "oh its fine, the forend tightens up the barrels, see"... yeah, I see a dead man walking. The PH on the whole also has a really terrible logic fallacy that was taught in Africa: "Nothing I have is unsafe because everything worked the last time I used it". They cannot wrap their minds around the difference between past performance and future results. They don't replace thatch when its rotten, only when water comes into the home. They don't replace bald tires until they go flat. They don't fix off-face guns until they blow up.

One last incendiary comment: a lot of the H&H guns aren't really H&H guns. Almost all guns were made in the white by W.C. Scott or Webley, finished by them as well in the low and mid grades, final engraving, stocking, and regulation of high grades done by the famous retailers. When people drool all over H&H guns as though they are the greatest thing ever, I chuckle. H&H didn't even have their own gun works until 1898 and they were covertly having much of their guns made elsewhere for a great period of time thereafter.

So I don't buy it that H&H were problematic double rifles going off face, otherwise ALL double rifles would be going off face because damned near every one was made by Scott or Webley whether they engraving said "Holland" or "Jeffery" Or "Army Navy" on them was immaterial.

So there, I've insulted rimless double rifle owners, PH's with their shoddy maintenance, and H&H collectors that own pedestrian double rifles they paid 5x more for because W.C. Scott engraved the word "Holland" on them and had them proofed in London instead of Birmingham to scam a Lord 140 years ago. :)
 
@Mark A Ouellette what is that standing tripod rest you have there? I'd love to have something similar but I haven't seen anything around that is even remotely similar.

The top/bench is from this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NAPIUIW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
MTM HLST High-Low Shooting Table, Grey/Black

One could make a top/bench out of 3/4" plywood, a large nut, and flat washer.

1686591705572.png


The yellow tripod I use is an old surveyor’s tripod. It is much more stable than the lightweight metal MTM tripod.
 

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Really good question. If I had to assign cause, the reason is that there are just more H&H guns out there than most other brands and they were typically (but not always) higher grades that the authors generally wrote about, so tales of their exploits and maladies were over-published.

How I'd go about breaking this down is as follows:

1.) Big floppy red shoes are for clowns. Clowns buy 458WM double rifles. (and 416s, and any other rimless) They ALL fail eventually because the ejectors have tiny pins hoping to grab the belt. On their best of days with a clean gun and a cool temp hunt, you might get ejection. The fact H&H made a bunch of them (Did they actually make them, or did schmucks convert guns to them when they couldn't find the correct rimmed ammo in the 1960s?) At any rate, clown guns deliver clown results.

2.) PHs are not gun maintainers. Feel free to give me the exceptional case of a PH that is great with maintenance, but the stereotype is 98% true a a rule. Guns going off face exists everywhere. In America, I box up a gun and for $200 they tig weld up the hook, dress it down, and put it back on face. That doesn't exist in Africa, they just keep shooting dangerous guns. I can't tell you how many PHs reply when I call them on their terrible guns "oh its fine, the forend tightens up the barrels, see"... yeah, I see a dead man walking. The PH on the whole also has a really terrible logic fallacy that was taught in Africa: "Nothing I have is unsafe because everything worked the last time I used it". They cannot wrap their minds around the difference between past performance and future results. They don't replace thatch when its rotten, only when water comes into the home. They don't replace bald tires until they go flat. They don't fix off-face guns until they blow up.

One last incendiary comment: a lot of the H&H guns aren't really H&H guns. Almost all guns were made in the white by W.C. Scott or Webley, finished by them as well in the low and mid grades, final engraving, stocking, and regulation of high grades done by the famous retailers. When people drool all over H&H guns as though they are the greatest thing ever, I chuckle. H&H didn't even have their own gun works until 1898 and they were covertly having much of their guns made elsewhere for a great period of time thereafter.

So I don't buy it that H&H were problematic double rifles going off face, otherwise ALL double rifles would be going off face because damned near every one was made by Scott or Webley whether they engraving said "Holland" or "Jeffery" Or "Army Navy" on them was immaterial.

So there, I've insulted rimless double rifle owners, PH's with their shoddy maintenance, and H&H collectors that own pedestrian double rifles they paid 5x more for because W.C. Scott engraved the word "Holland" on them and had them proofed in London instead of Birmingham to scam a Lord 140 years ago. :)
Rook, thank you for your frank assessment. I agree that good gunsmiths , as in knowledgeable as well as properly equipped to take on intricate work are rare in Africa, and sending a gun out to be worked upon is impossible. And yes, Mr Average owner or PH isn't that bothered.
The way I see it, you must buy new, buy the best in terms of intrinsic design and absolute top materials, and maintain it properly. Then you will have a fair run of reliable functionality, but eventually things break or wear out and in Africa you may just have to get another. Harsh reality.

What would you say of old WR's? And new ones?
 
Rook, thank you for your frank assessment. I agree that good gunsmiths , as in knowledgeable as well as properly equipped to take on intricate work are rare in Africa, and sending a gun out to be worked upon is impossible. And yes, Mr Average owner or PH isn't that bothered.
The way I see it, you must buy new, buy the best in terms of intrinsic design and absolute top materials, and maintain it properly. Then you will have a fair run of reliable functionality, but eventually things break or wear out and in Africa you may just have to get another. Harsh reality.

What would you say of old WR's? And new ones?


I can't speak to new WRs, but I suspect they are fabulous as fluid steels have only gotten much better. Vintage WRs are wonderful. Nothing wrong with them.

Twisting your question around, can anyone name a BAD British double rifle maker of history? I cannot.
 
Most H&H double rifles employed what is known as back-action sidelock actions. This means that the mainspring is behind the tumbler so very little steel has to be removed from the bar of the action. This makes the H&H design one of the strongest out there, especially the Dominion. They are certainly stronger than the average boxlock, especially the non-Webley boxlocks with short action bars. The way a boxlock has to be inletted is another potential point of weakness over time. A lot of wood has to be removed from the head of the stock to inlet the action, so the boxlock is not as strong as the sidelock in this regard and they tend to develop cracks with frequent use.

A lot of H&H double rifles have been made over the years-a lot! If a few of them developed mechanical problems over the years, it's perfectly understandable. It can happen with any double rifle. One design that is prone to shooting off the face, at least in my experience, is the revered Rigby rising-bite. I've seen half a dozen of them that were pretty ramshackle after many years of use, and a look at the short action bar, as well as the fact that they are bar-action guns with the mainspring forward of the tumbler, probably explains it. At least from my non-engineer point of view. Given a choice between a long-bar Webley boxlock with the Rigby name on it and a rising-bite, I'd probably pick the long-bar Webley for purposes of lots of shooting.

The 1960's and 70's were not good years for British gunmaking, and H&H was probably no exception. Orders for new rifles were few, qualified tradesmen were in short supply, and Kynoch was no longer loading ammunition for the various Nitro-Express cartridges. The result was a drop in quality, and many British best guns produced during this time was anything but "best" upon fine scrutiny. Since someone mentioned here that the problem of H&H doubles shooting loose was encountered with rifles chambered in .458's, improper jointing by a gunmaker who perhaps had bell-bottom jeans, a bag of weed and a girlfriend with a flower in her hair on his mind instead of focusing on the work in hand may very well be culprit in a few instances. But this is a guess from my point of view.

A good friend of mine owns a lovely old H&H Royal from 1922 in .500/465 NE with hand-detachable locks and H&H's hidden third bite. It's impossible to say how many times it has been shot, but it must be a lot. Aside from some cosmetic touch-ups, that rifle is as mechanically sound as the day it left the factory. The barrels are tight on the face and the rest of the innards are in great shape. Three other friends, one in South Africa and two others in Australia, have extensive H&H collections. Between the two of them, they must own the better part of 50 H&H Royal double rifles in various calibres from .240 Apex up to .577 NE. All three shoot their rifles quite a bit, and with one exception, I've never heard any of them complain about rifles shooting loose. The one exception is a special-order .500/465 NE made in 1935 for a Maharaj for tiger shooting from a howda. The rifle is stunning in every detail, but was purposefully made to weigh just over 9 pounds, so it is rather light and gets your attention when you pull the trigger. This rifle developed a slight looseness, but was quickly set right by a gunsmith again. It has been fired many times since and the barrels are still tight on the face.

Modern guns and rifles have the wonderful advantage of better steel. This factor alone goes a long way towards ensuring that even hard-kicking double rifles stay jointed the way they are supposed to. Being of a mechanical nature, though, things can and will still break. Another friend owns a Heym 88B .470 NE. After more than 2 000 documented shots and some very hard use, he broke a pair of firing pins. I know of another 88b in .450 NE that broke a mainspring, several Merkels in .500 NE that gave endless trouble, a VC .577 NE that regularly double-discharges, and a Krieghoff .470 NE that double-discharged rather spectacularly during a shooting competition in front of dozens of people, right after the owner told me that his Krieghoff was the most reliable double ever made and never double-discharges! Go figure...
 
Yes, but you don’t just have a double rifle. You have a HEYM. Those things are on another level. And I’ll even venture to say that they manufacture the best double rifles in existence today.
I agree, of all the manufacturers of doubles, HYEM is the only one I would have make one for me, if I decided not to make it for myself.
 
Well, before reading this, I was really thinking if I hit the lottery, I'd like a Heym 89 in .500 Nitro. Now it's making my "cheap" .458 Lott Enfield look better and better. Maybe the cheap old turn bolt isn't so bad after all. I really like my .375 Weatherby Enfield :)
 
I hear you on scopes Mark...I scoped my .470 Krieghoff with a Leupold red dot, in a swing mount...I did this after succesfully shoot ele at night with a .375 with an Aimpoint.. Those red dots are very fast to use..

I also find the Krieghoff to be very forgiving....it shoots more or less the same with factory Norma, Federal and Hornady... + handloads..
I have found the same with my Kreighoff. While I have not fired any factory loads in mine, I have tried at least 5 different projectiles and 4 or 5 different powders while working up a hand load for it and it was.not really disagreeable with any of them. I can run the same powder charge with H4831sc and switch between A Frames, Hornady, and cutting edge and they all shoot almost the same group and pretty well the same point of impact. It is very handy!
 
To paraphrase a line spoken my Harvey Keitel in the movie U-571 as the American crew took the U-boat to 500 feet below the surface, "Those Krauts build a hell or a gun (boat)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)

A London best rifle or gun is arguably the finest sporting arm in the world. They were also meant to be returned to their makers after the shooting season for inspection, tuning, tightening, and if necessary refreshing. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't H&H use Mauser bolt actions before and after the World Wars?

American sporting arms, at least until 1963, were made to last a lifetime without need of anything but cleaning. There were working arms, many of which reside in my gun safes still ready to work.

German sporting arms designed by German engineers and manufactured by German craftsmen and machinery are like American arms but of more intricate design. Dollar for Dollar, I trust German or Austrian engineering far over British for most any type of machinery including firearms.

The Greener Crossbolt while of British design, is used by Heym and Merkel to lock their actions. It may not be the prettiest mechanism but it is not going to allow the action to open if a round develops too much pressure. By design, it will stabilize the action as the molecules take advantage of Youngs Modulas, "everything is a spring". The less elastic an action is, the less chance of plastic deformation (permanent warping out of shape) where it comes off face.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_modulus

The above stated, H&H actions may come off face for many reasons; over pressure loads, lack of cleaning and lubricating the action, and what I suspect, materials like the steel used that may not of been of the same quality as used by Heym.

German or British engineering? If I were going to buy a sports car that I would drive hard for 200,000 miles over ten years, like I have my trusty Ford F-150, it sure as heck would not be a Jaguar, as beautiful as they are. No, make mine a BMW or maybe a sporty Audi. After all, those Krauts build a heck of a machine!

The above is my opinion. Yours may vary...
Owned 4 Jag XJs and XKs over the years . No problems at all . Audi A8 terrific . 2 Mercedes Benz - the greatest motoring disappointments of my life . All brand new cars
 
I have never had a problem with English double rifles whether they be side locks or box locks . The one common element for all is I use rimmed / flanged cartridges . Generally lower pressure ammo + rims means no extraction problems and all on face .
 
Really good question. If I had to assign cause, the reason is that there are just more H&H guns out there than most other brands and they were typically (but not always) higher grades that the authors generally wrote about, so tales of their exploits and maladies were over-published.

How I'd go about breaking this down is as follows:

1.) Big floppy red shoes are for clowns. Clowns buy 458WM double rifles. (and 416s, and any other rimless) They ALL fail eventually because the ejectors have tiny pins hoping to grab the belt. On their best of days with a clean gun and a cool temp hunt, you might get ejection. The fact H&H made a bunch of them (Did they actually make them, or did schmucks convert guns to them when they couldn't find the correct rimmed ammo in the 1960s?) At any rate, clown guns deliver clown results.

2.) PHs are not gun maintainers. Feel free to give me the exceptional case of a PH that is great with maintenance, but the stereotype is 98% true a a rule. Guns going off face exists everywhere. In America, I box up a gun and for $200 they tig weld up the hook, dress it down, and put it back on face. That doesn't exist in Africa, they just keep shooting dangerous guns. I can't tell you how many PHs reply when I call them on their terrible guns "oh its fine, the forend tightens up the barrels, see"... yeah, I see a dead man walking. The PH on the whole also has a really terrible logic fallacy that was taught in Africa: "Nothing I have is unsafe because everything worked the last time I used it". They cannot wrap their minds around the difference between past performance and future results. They don't replace thatch when its rotten, only when water comes into the home. They don't replace bald tires until they go flat. They don't fix off-face guns until they blow up.

One last incendiary comment: a lot of the H&H guns aren't really H&H guns. Almost all guns were made in the white by W.C. Scott or Webley, finished by them as well in the low and mid grades, final engraving, stocking, and regulation of high grades done by the famous retailers. When people drool all over H&H guns as though they are the greatest thing ever, I chuckle. H&H didn't even have their own gun works until 1898 and they were covertly having much of their guns made elsewhere for a great period of time thereafter.

So I don't buy it that H&H were problematic double rifles going off face, otherwise ALL double rifles would be going off face because damned near every one was made by Scott or Webley whether they engraving said "Holland" or "Jeffery" Or "Army Navy" on them was immaterial.

So there, I've insulted rimless double rifle owners, PH's with their shoddy maintenance, and H&H collectors that own pedestrian double rifles they paid 5x more for because W.C. Scott engraved the word "Holland" on them and had them proofed in London instead of Birmingham to scam a Lord 140 years a
Hi Rookhawk,
I am not going to comment about any other PH, but since you have hunted with Liesl and myself. I would in the strongest terms disagree with you about how we maintain, firearm, roofing, vehicles and the hundreds of other pieces of equipment necessary to running a safari lodge and camp.

Our thatch on both our lodge is rejuvenated every 5 years. This costs about $25,000.00.
All vehicle are serviced every 5,000 ks and completely checked bumper to bumper on a weekly basis. No tyre tube is repaired it is replaced.

Firearms? Every firearm that we own is properly cleaned and checked for mechanical flaws. I will not tolerate any mechanical defects in our firearms. Company owned client firearms are maintained the same way. Sometimes I want to cry when I see a rifle of ours that has been used by certain clients.

We do our best with what we have to work with.
P.S. All of our dogs are up to date on their vaccinations.
 

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