Hierarchy Of Double Rifles - Where does the Verney-Carron Fit In?

[DmacD]

Hello to all the learned and experienced. I pose a question to you, hoping to gain some insight into where a Verney-Carron Azur double rifle would fit into place on a list of desirable doubles.
I think I would like to leave out any reference to any type of vintage, bespoke, English or Continental rifle, as I am more focused on what is being produced today, or at least in the last 25 years or so.
Let's assume the calibre is the same for all (.450/.400 NE) and condition of each rifle is comparable - nearly new, to used, but well taken care of. I'm thinking about quality, fit and finish, balance, recoil mitigation, resale value, etc. How does the V.C. Azur compare to the:

Merkel 140
Kreighoff Classic Big Five
Sabatti Classic Double
Heym 88B or 89B
Chapuis X4 or Iphisi

I suppose the question boils down to whether or not a blue collar guy on a budget should even be looking at this double rifle, or should he be satisfied with his bolt gun? I don't believe in buying an inferior product, just because the price is good, I'd rather save longer and be happy.

 

[mark-hunter]

In the same dilemma, in same position, I decided I cannot justify for myself a DR, which will cost me one safari, and for only one or two DG animals, that I could envision to hunt in the future.
So, I stick to bolts action 375 HH.

If I would be living in Africa, where a more often DG hunt could be more frequent and realistic option, probably DG double rifle would be more realistic idea.

Basic question is how many of thick skinned do you plan to hunt in the future?

All that being said, and If I would be looking for a double, on a budget, I would be looking for a Sabbati 2nd hand, under condition that I test it on the range, and verify barrel regulation. The point is to test before buying.

 

[SStomcat]

VC makes a good gun specially their Azure line. When I was in the market for a double 2-3 years back I looked closely at one that was being sold at 15K or so for a new 470 ne. I also considered Heym 89B price around 25 K with some bells and whistles with a almost 8-9 months wait but decided to go with a Krieghoff Classic Big 5, mainly because I could physically see the gun, ensure it is the right fit(V imp.) and available locally (any warranty issues etc, could be handled by them) I find the K gun to be extremely strong, rugged, accurate and forgiving. At he shop Gordys and Son there was a used Heym in 500ne tha I also looked at closely. Just could not justify the price difference and found the fit and finsh lot superior to the Krieghoff. This is my view point others may differ. At the end it comes down to personal choice, all the guns mentioned are good guns. I have no idea of Sabattis.

 

[Rare Breed]

Hello to all the learned and experienced. I pose a question to you, hoping to gain some insight into where a Verney-Carron Azur double rifle would fit into place on a list of desirable doubles.
I think I would like to leave out any reference to any type of vintage, bespoke, English or Continental rifle, as I am more focused on what is being produced today, or at least in the last 25 years or so.
Let's assume the calibre is the same for all (.450/.400 NE) and condition of each rifle is comparable - nearly new, to used, but well taken care of. I'm thinking about quality, fit and finish, balance, recoil mitigation, resale value, etc. How does the V.C. Azur compare to the:

Merkel 140
Kreighoff Classic Big Five
Sabatti Classic Double
Heym 88B or 89B
Chapuis X4 or Iphisi

I suppose the question boils down to whether or not a blue collar guy on a budget should even be looking at this double rifle, or should he be satisfied with his bolt gun? I don't believe in buying an inferior product, just because the price is good, I'd rather save longer and be happy.

i would say from lowest to highest Sabatti, Merkle, Chapuis, Kreigoff, Heym based on my DR experience

 

[Rare Breed]

My concern with the VC is people I greatly respect not being enthusiastic in repairing VC. Butch had a few concerning issues that are public that would steer me away from a CC given I have owned 7 DRs from the major brands. Nothing but my POV

 

[Rare Breed]

VC

 

[Altitude sickness]

I’ll play. With my very limited experience and knowledge

Heym several places above the others listed.


Then Krieghoff and Merkel dead even due to issues each have had.

Chapuis and VC even


Sabatti

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I am no expert but I tank double rifles on these three f's - function, fit, finish. The inherent design, and the quality of it's execution are everything and override everything else. Fit can be altered, and no amount of engraving or inlay can make a bad gun better. I have had personal experience with two on the list and close friends have with the others, except Sabatti, which I have nevertheless done some research upon. My ranking from best to worst is:
Heym
Kreighoff
Chapuis
Merkel
VC

 

[SStomcat]

VC makes a good gun specially their Azure line. When I was in the market for a double 2-3 years back I looked closely at one that was being sold at 15K or so for a new 470 ne. I also considered Heym 89B price around 25 K with some bells and whistles with a almost 8-9 months wait but decided to go with a Krieghoff Classic Big 5, mainly because I could physically see the gun, ensure it is the right fit(V imp.) and available locally (any warranty issues etc, could be handled by them) I find the K gun to be extremely strong, rugged, accurate and forgiving. At he shop Gordys and Son there was a used Heym in 500ne tha I also looked at closely. Just could not justify the price difference and found the fit and finsh lot superior to the Krieghoff. This is my view point others may differ. At the end it comes down to personal choice, all the guns mentioned are good guns. I have no idea of Sabattis.

Meant to say did not find fit and finish of Heym any superior to the Krieghoff

 

[BeeMaa]

There is a reason Heym double rifles cost so much...they are worth it.

Heym uses five different frame sizes to scale the action to the cartridge being used. This is done so the rifle will balance and mount correctly. The only time this may not be followed is when multiple barrels are used on the same action, necessitating the need for the smaller cartridges to be set in the action for the largest barrel set ordered.

I'm not sure what other companies offer, but this is a major point for Heym. The only other DR's I'd consider are the Krieghoff Big Five and Blaser S2 (didin't make your list) because I appreciate the safety of their cocking/decocking that makes carrying a loaded double rifle a little more safe.

BTW - Heym does the same thing for their bolt action rifles. Each action and magazine box is specifically fitted for the cartridge being used. It's my opinion that they make some of the very best rifles in the world and represent a great value considering what it takes to do so.

 

[sureshot375]

I put Heym and Krieghoff about the same. Heym does a better job of marketing in the US and I think that impacts resale value if buying new. If buying used it doesn’t really matter. I believe a used krieghoff is the best value in double rifles.

I really enjoy hunting with a double, but it’s a challenge more than a need. If the budget is limited I would keep the bolt and use the money to hunt. If you have the extra $$ and you buy right on the used market there isn’t too much downside on the double market. You should be able to get most of your money back.

 

[Tradmark]

I bought a VC based on the recommendation of two very very good gunsmiths. My VC is impeccable

 

[rookhawk]

Hello to all the learned and experienced. I pose a question to you, hoping to gain some insight into where a Verney-Carron Azur double rifle would fit into place on a list of desirable doubles.
I think I would like to leave out any reference to any type of vintage, bespoke, English or Continental rifle, as I am more focused on what is being produced today, or at least in the last 25 years or so.
Let's assume the calibre is the same for all (.450/.400 NE) and condition of each rifle is comparable - nearly new, to used, but well taken care of. I'm thinking about quality, fit and finish, balance, recoil mitigation, resale value, etc. How does the V.C. Azur compare to the:

Merkel 140
Kreighoff Classic Big Five
Sabatti Classic Double
Heym 88B or 89B
Chapuis X4 or Iphisi

I suppose the question boils down to whether or not a blue collar guy on a budget should even be looking at this double rifle, or should he be satisfied with his bolt gun? I don't believe in buying an inferior product, just because the price is good, I'd rather save longer and be happy.

Of the ones you listed out as choices, sort them how you wish, but the Heym is superior to all the other options.

To your question of should you have a bolt gun instead, that is a great question. $9000 gets you a very mediocre double rifle, but gets you a very good bolt rifle. I always recommend the best firearm anyone owns should be a 375HH bolt rifle because you’ll use it the most, getting your money’s worth out of the extra dollars spent.

Regarding your question of caliber for double rifle, the most expensive and in demand caliber you can buy is 450-400 3” Nitro express. Moderate recoil, ideal for buffalo, they are having a renaissance. Expect to pay more for that caliber than all other choices due to supply and demand. (With the exception of .577NE and larger, rare specialty calibers for professionals hunting exclusively elephant) Of all the double rifle calibers, the most useful and affordable due to the ubiquity is 470NE. Relatively manageable recoil, common ammo, effective on all game.

Happy shopping!

 

[Pondoro]

My experience with Krieghoff Big Five .470.. The stock is very straight..perfectly built to take recoil straight back with little muzzle raise..important for a quick follow up shot.. The rifle is also very forgiving with different factory ammo.. Norma/Federal/Hornady regulate almost identical at 40 - 50 yards..

As for calibre, I have never used .450/400 on game (have a vintage brit but not shot game with it..yet)
The .450/400 has a very good reputation for buffalo..

A .470 really hits buffalo hard..I shot a big bull and a cow with mine..both went straight down..

If I were you I would test fire different rifles and calibres..if you shoot a .470 as well as 450/400 go for the .470..it hits harder..you find ammo more easily (even in Africa..) I scoped my Krieghoff..plenty eye distance..scoping your double will enhance the ability to place your shots..my scope is a red dot Leupold..makes for fast shots.. The scope is on a swing mount..many K-guns come with that installed from the factory. I would also hunt elephant any day with this setup..

 

[Kharn]

Where would the likes of Rigby / Westley Richards / Purdey / etc sit in this Hierarchy?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I would personally rank Verney Carron to be above Sabatti, Chapuis & Merkel.
About equal with Kreighoff. And slightly below Heym.

In regards to the double rifles offered by the British heritage gun makers, I would rank James Purdey as being the most elite. Followed by Westley Richards, followed by John Rigby.

The English double rifles (from a technical standpoint) do possess one disadvantage. All of their makers strongly discourage the use of monolithic bullets in their wares.

In regards to purchasing a budget double rifle, just remember one golden rule- There’s no such thing as a budget double rifle. You get what you pay for, in terms of accuracy & reliability. Always remember that a budget bolt action rifle is more desirable than a budget double rifle.

 

[degoins]

I bought a VC based on the recommendation of two very very good gunsmiths. My VC is impeccable

That has been my experience as well and I've had mine over 10 years.

 

[AZDAVE]

Well having owned all those brands at one time or another.

I would rank them in this order.

Highest to lowest
Hyem
VC and Kreighoff Classic Big Five
Chapuis X4 or Iphisi
Merkel 140
Sabatti Classic Double



@Kharn The companies you mentioned would be at a much higher ranking with a y big gap between them and the above ones on your list, along with the corresponding price tag.

 

[DmacD]

Of the ones you listed out as choices, sort them how you wish, but the Heym is superior to all the other options.

To your question of should you have a bolt gun instead, that is a great question. $9000 gets you a very mediocre double rifle, but gets you a very good bolt rifle. I always recommend the best firearm anyone owns should be a 375HH bolt rifle because you’ll use it the most, getting your money’s worth out of the extra dollars spent.

Regarding your question of caliber for double rifle, the most expensive and in demand caliber you can buy is 450-400 3” Nitro express. Moderate recoil, ideal for buffalo, they are having a renaissance. Expect to pay more for that caliber than all other choices due to supply and demand. (With the exception of .577NE and larger, rare specialty calibers for professionals hunting exclusively elephant) Of all the double rifle calibers, the most useful and affordable due to the ubiquity is 470NE. Relatively manageable recoil, common ammo, effective on all game.

Happy shopping!

Hi Rookhawk, thank you for weighing in on this. I presently own a BRNO 602 that started out as a .375 H&H, but was converted to a .404 Jeffery. It works very well, not pretty, but neither am I , so we make a good team together.
The reason for my interest in the V.C. in .450/.400 NE is that there will be one coming up for auction locally to me. I live in Canada, and to be able to source a double rifle of any maker or brand ranges anywhere from difficult to impossible. I follow the threads here on AHF with much interest, so wanted to get some opinions. To be honest, and this is purely academic to me at this point, I would really like to own a Heym 89B. I liked the sounds of the .450/.400 as it duplicated the performance of my .404 Jeffery with moderate recoil as well.

 

[DmacD]

My experience with Krieghoff Big Five .470.. The stock is very straight..perfectly built to take recoil straight back with little muzzle raise..important for a quick follow up shot.. The rifle is also very forgiving with different factory ammo.. Norma/Federal/Hornady regulate almost identical at 40 - 50 yards..

As for calibre, I have never used .450/400 on game (have a vintage brit but not shot game with it..yet)
The .450/400 has a very good reputation for buffalo..

A .470 really hits buffalo hard..I shot a big bull and a cow with mine..both went straight down..

If I were you I would test fire different rifles and calibres..if you shoot a .470 as well as 450/400 go for the .470..it hits harder..you find ammo more easily (even in Africa..) I scoped my Krieghoff..plenty eye distance..scoping your double will enhance the ability to place your shots..my scope is a red dot Leupold..makes for fast shots.. The scope is on a swing mount..many K-guns come with that installed from the factory. I would also hunt elephant any day with this setup..

View attachment 635838

Thank you Pondoro. As I live in Canada, the choices on double rifles are dismal, to be honest. The market is very much "Take what you can get", or "Beggars can't be choosers". This V.C. would be at an upcoming auction here locally to me.
I very much enjoy seeing your setup, thanks for sharing this.