Gun control???

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@gizmo you mentioned England. Not sure why.
They have 5.3 times lower murder rate than the USA in general.

The Stats appear to support the factual reduction in murders with firearms when the muppets can't get their hands on them.
Gun violence rare in U.K. compared to U.S.
In a population of 56 million, that adds up to about 50 to 60 gun killings annually. In the USA, by contrast, there are about 160 times as many gun homicides in a country that is roughly six times larger in population. There were 8,124 gun homicides in 2014, according to the latest FBI figures.y six times larger in population. There were 8,124 gun homicides in 2014, according to the latest FBI figures.

Now, lets have a look at a comparison of overall murder rates across the world. per 100,000
These places sound like rather safe places to hang out.
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There are apparently 93 countries that are worse off.

We have sick people running folks down with vans, stabbing people, etc.
We just happen to have way less firearms related homicides than you guys. Slightly older stats but, there does not appear to be an improvement by 2015 as above.

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As I always say, you guys are going to have to figure this one out somehow.

The problem with Chart 4 is that 4 or 5 or 10 times near zero is still near zero. The chart is intended to show how the U.S. is so much more dangerous. I mean 6 times that of other countries, the people here must be dropping like flies.

But 3.5 out of 100,000, what really does that mean? It means you have 3.5 / 100,000 * 100 = 0.0035% chance of being murdered with a firearm being used as the tool of the crime in the U.S.

Conversely that means you have a 100-0.0035 = 99.9965% chance of NOT being murdered with a firearm in the U.S.

In comparison to Canada, the numbers are 0.0005% of and 99.9995% of NOT.

So once you cross that border into the U.S. from Canada you're likelihood of being shot and killed rises by 0.003%. I just don't see that as statistically significant. Now stay out of known high crime areas mentioned earlier and this number drops even more.

I was just visiting this evening with a cousin of mine from the U.K. that I've not seen in more than 30 years. He first flew into Los Angeles before driving to Phoenix. He didn't mention every feeling at risk while even in L.A. Plans to make another trip here next year, has made many other previous trips. Go figure, he doesn't seem to think this is the wild west.

 

[Scott Slough]

Regarding letter A, it would seem you've bought into the revisionist history that the founding fathers of this country did not intend for the citizens of this country to be armed such that they could replace the government if they found the need to do so in the future. This would mean having to ignore the fact that these same folks led a revolution against the British and knew they were only able to do so by arming themselves against them.

Now before you head down the road of "if you think you can win a war against the U.S. military, you're crazy," I certainly don't think so at all. But then I'd like to think that the U.S. government would rethink things when it came down to using military force to suppress such a rebellion. Then again there was that Waco fracas during the Clinton administration.

Registering guns is just one step away from the government confiscating guns. Hitler with the military he built back up thought that was a great idea when it came to the Jews.

Regarding letter B, no problem by me. But how about we enforce the background checks? As was mentioned there were all sorts of alarms going off about the shooter in Florida and nothing was done to prevent that shooting. Was that perhaps intentional?

Regarding letter C, do you really think lengthening the time it took for the Vegas shooter to acquire weapons would have done any good? What length of time do you think we should have had in place? How does time in and of itself prevent these mass shootings?

Regarding letters D and E, see my response to letter A. The second amendment says nothing about legal or illegal guns.

My list was solely in response to stopping school shootings,..my interest in this thread.

I am not interested in overthrowing the government or conserving the rights of those who want to....

Letter C is EXTREMELY relevant in school shootings. The shooters are typically male, loners ...who like the parkland and Virginia Tech shooters legally purchased guns and immediately carried out the shooting with very little planning. These individuals typically don't have access to black market guns (see no friends) or lifelong accumulations if the Vegas shooter. A more rigorous background check and waiting period could be very effective.

 

[Scott Slough]

And for the record I am in support of background checks. I just wish that those laws we already have would be enforced.
The NRA is also in support of background checks. Has made public statements as to such my entire life.
The NRA however very fortunately pays attention to the fine print and educates and opposes all those bills that over reach the intent. I am a life NRA member and a huge NRA supporter. If you enjoy having your 3 safes of gun’s you should really thank the NRA for the work they have done to make sure you can still have them.

I only have 2...mi was hoping for 3 you.

 

[gizmo]

My list was solely in response to stopping school shootings,..my interest in this thread.

I am not interested in overthrowing the government or conserving the rights of those who want to....

Letter C is EXTREMELY relevant in school shootings. The shooters are typically male, loners ...who like the parkland and Virginia Tech shooters legally purchased guns and immediately carried out the shooting with very little planning. These individuals typically don't have access to black market guns (see no friends) or lifelong accumulations if the Vegas shooter. A more rigorous background check and waiting period could be very effective.

You are mostly correct on the profile but in both instances there were red flags everywhere. You are incorrect in the planning assumption as often these shooters fantasized for quite some time. People knew those shooters had major issues but there was a lack of follow up and enforcement. That is a documented fact. A waiting period would have simply delayed the inevitable. The VA Tech shooter and Parkland shooter could have both been stopped way before it ever happened. The details on the Vegas guy are still so vague we don’t know yet so we really can’t use that.
The Parkland Guy was a classic case of the gov’t dropping the ball plain and simple.
I’m a 100% for background checks, even vigorous ones. But the problem is if one cog in the wheel fails the hole thing fails and that’s exactly what happened. It can be directly linked to people, many in both cases, not doing their jobs and others not speaking up.
That’s why I have a problem with waiting periods. They do nothing. If a guy has made up his mind he’s going to kill someone(s) a 5, 10, or 20 day wait is going to do nothing more than give that individual more time to plan the attack. In which case the death toll could very well be higher. We know in each and every case that at least some planning has gone into it, what I mean is in no case did the shooter decide they were going to kill people, walk to a store, buy a gun, and kill everyone in the same day. The decision is made over months or years, we know that. They may set a date and do it within a day or two but they think about it and fantasize about it for months and years in advance. That we do know. As far as planning though there again if you look at the majority of the high profile cases there was a hellava lot of planning that went into each one starting with Columbine and going forward.

 

[gizmo]

I only have 2...mi was hoping for 3 you.

Ok fair enough but hey congrats on two.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Letter C is EXTREMELY relevant in school shootings. The shooters are typically male, loners ...who like the parkland and Virginia Tech shooters legally purchased guns and immediately carried out the shooting with very little planning.

Bullshit.

Regarding the VT shooter, read here: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/gun.laws/index.html

The shooter bought his last pistol on March 12 with the attack occurring on April 16, more than a month later.

Regarding Nikolas Cruz, the AR-15 he used in the Parkland shooting was bought a year prior to the shooting. Read here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...bought-gun-legally-authorities-say/340606002/

Also read here about what was going on prior to this shooting:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-bought-seven-rifles/

In both of these cases, stronger background checks were not necessary. Not acting on information made available was the failure.

I'll ask again, please try to answer specifically. What would be the appropriate period of time to wait for a purchase of a gun? And if you're game, who decides what this time period should be? And would that be based on?

 

[gizmo]

Bullshit.

Regarding the VT shooter, read here: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/gun.laws/index.html

The shooter bought his last pistol on March 12 with the attack occurring on April 16, more than a month later.

Regarding Nikolas Cruz, the AR-15 he used in the Parkland shooting was bought a year prior to the shooting. Read here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...bought-gun-legally-authorities-say/340606002/

Also read here about what was going on prior to this shooting:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-bought-seven-rifles/

In both of these cases, stronger background checks were not necessary. Not acting on information made available was the failure.

I'll ask again, please try to answer specifically. What would be the appropriate period of time to wait for a purchase of a gun? And if you're game, who decides what this time period should be? And would that be based on?

Exactly Phil you hit the nail on the head.

 

[gizmo]

It’s 1/4 to 2 here I’ve gotta a long day tomorrow. I’ll leave y’all to it.

 

[bilmcc]

S.S., Talking points of the alt-left and as such must be branded as a left wing troll. Time to dump this thread and ban this member as anti-gun and by extension, anti-hunting, closet PETA sympathizer. Photos and info are now suspected fake.

This is not a logical set of conclusions. It is name calling. That does not lead us anywhere. This is the behavior the antis use. We cannot resolve the problem of gun violence by jumping up and down and yelling 2nd Amendment. Oh, we can, but if we have no solution, WE WILL LOSE. The 2nd Amendment does not solve our problems with gun violence.
I had asked who the NRA is working with to reduce gun violence. I am still looking for an answer. Maybe I did not make it clear that I was not talking about their services in loco parentis. Yes, teaching gun safety is important. There is a gun, run away! Where does that training transition into responsible, adult attitudes towards guns? Meantime, who is addressing gun, knife, acid, bomb violence in our society. Does NRA have a seat at that table?

 

[mdwest]

I dont know that its the NRA's responsibility to reduce gun violence..

The law abiding citizens that the NRA represents arent the people committing the gun related crimes..

For the most part, people with healthy minds arent committing the gun related crimes..

Gun safety education, hunter education, etc.. will do little to solve the problem.. gun safes and trigger locks wont fix it either.. nor will magazines with limited capacity, or semi-autos, etc..

Its the NRA's responsibility to protect the 2nd Amendment.

I think its society's responsibility to reduce gun violence.. Fix the American family, raise our children right, monitor their mental health, etc.. actually hold kids accountable for their actions.. teach them they arent entitled.. that just because they think they "feel" like a snow leopard today doesnt mean they get to claim that they are one.. that grown men CANT use the same bathroom as little girls.. etc...

and maybe then we'll start to see a decline in mass shooting incidents.. (it wont stop gang violence, criminal activity, etc.. seen in the major metro areas where there are strict gun laws in place.. the solution there is substantially different I believe)..

The NRA lobbying for lower divorce rates, better rearing of children, mental health testing of teens, and teaching snowflakes not to melt every time they dont get their way, or the world doesnt give them exactly what they want... or that the world has a way of holding you accountable for your actions, even when your friends and your parents wont... isnt really what the NRA does or is about..

Fixing the problem starts at the dinner table.. not in Washington...

 

[bilmcc]

I dont know that its the NRA's responsibility to reduce gun violence..

The law abiding citizens that the NRA represents arent the people committing the gun related crimes..

For the most part, people with healthy minds arent committing the gun related crimes..

Gun safety education, hunter education, etc.. will do little to solve the problem.. gun safes and trigger locks wont fix it either.. nor will magazines with limited capacity, or semi-autos, etc..

Its the NRA's responsibility to protect the 2nd Amendment.

I think its society's responsibility to reduce gun violence.. Fix the American family, raise our children right, monitor their mental health, etc.. actually hold kids accountable for their actions.. teach them they arent entitled.. that just because they think they "feel" like a snow leopard today doesnt mean they get to claim that they are one.. that grown men CANT use the same bathroom as little girls.. etc...

and maybe then we'll start to see a decline in mass shooting incidents.. (it wont stop gang violence, criminal activity, etc.. seen in the major metro areas where there are strict gun laws in place.. the solution there is substantially different I believe)..

The NRA lobbying for lower divorce rates, better rearing of children, mental health testing of teens, and teaching snowflakes not to melt every time they dont get their way, or the world doesnt give them exactly what they want... or that the world has a way of holding you accountable for your actions, even when your friends and your parents wont... isnt really what the NRA does or is about..

Fixing the problem starts at the dinner table.. not in Washington...

Do you think a reduction in gun violence might be part of protecting the 2nd Amendment?

 

[bilmcc]

Also, it is the responsibility of all of us who swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution to protect the 2nd Amendment.

 

[mdwest]

Do you think a reduction in gun violence might be part of protecting the 2nd Amendment?

I think reducing gun violence might lower pressure from those who seek to abolish the 2nd amendment..

But I also think that the way to reduce gun violence is by holding irresponsible parents, irresponsible mental health physicians, irresponsible courts, irresponsible educators, and irresponsible politicians accountable for their actions (or lack of actions)..

Plenty of people see the problem long before the problem becomes covered in violence.. they just chose to ignore it, excuse it, or blame it on someone/something else..

I also think the "gun violence" problem in this country is multi-faceted.. what is driving inner city gun violence and crime is very different than what is driving the issue with mass shootings..

If we want the NRA to shift its focus from educating people about firearms, lobbying for firearms rights, etc.. and begin to lobby for the prosecution of doctors, teachers, courts, and parents.. then they might be able to help reduce gun violence..

But I think that is the responsibility of the GOOD doctors, teachers, courts, and parents.. not the NRA..


I agree with your comment on swearing an oath.. I've sworn that oath on numerous occasions.. in a variety of roles/careers..

All members of the NRA however did not... (although, that said, I believe all American citizens, regardless of whether they ever raised their right hand and swore the oath you refer to... should live and abide by all of our nations laws, and relish in the freedoms and protections our constitution provides.. it always amazes me when people are more than willing, even deeply desire on some occasions to relinquish freedoms in the interest of something else, whether its safety, security, or simple efficiency or ease of getting something accomplished)..

 

[Hogpatrol]

In 1964, I took a J.C. Higgins .22 semi automatic rifle to my high school for a demo on gun cleaning in my public speaking class. Walked down the hall with a gun case between classes. Guys that had cars (far and few between) had guns in their cars during hunting season. Also owned an M1 carbine with 30 round magazines for plinking. Shotgun hunted pheasants and rabbits within Philadelphia International airport property before going to work and jacklighted rats there at night with .22s, aircraft on final just over our heads. Security patrol would ask us how we were doing. Ironic, AR 15s were available for retail sales WITHOUT background checks and there were no mass shootings with them. So what's changed? The country has gone down the progressive, liberal, everyone's got to be equal but without any civic responsibility. Want something others have but you don't? Don't get a better education, work harder or more hours, just elect a liberal politician who will enact taxes to make others pay for it (look at your cell phone bill). Need internet or wi-fi? Free in the city. How about a safe place to get new needles and shoot up illegal drugs? That's coming to Philadelphia and other major cities. This country was founded on self reliance. The question is, do we want to go backward in the future or return to what really makes this country great? Doing it on your own WITHOUT government help.
It's up to the people and from this chair, it's not looking too good and new laws banning guns, knives, baseball bats, long handle garden tools, rental trucks and other means of mass destruction will do absolutely nothing to prevent ANYONE from those acts.

I'm done. Heading to the range to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights.

 

[jeff]

In the early seventies There was a class in jr high called Outdoor Education, a week would not go by that you wouldn't see long guns on the school bus, students carrying them down the the hall, no adult was even checking to see if they were loaded and yet not one shooting. People used to be responsible for their own actions.

 

[NamStay]

 

[Hogpatrol]

In the early seventies There was a class in jr high called Outdoor Education, a week would not go by that you wouldn't see long guns on the school bus, students carrying them down the the hall, no adult was even checking to see if they were loaded and yet not one shooting. People used to be responsible for their own actions.

Your post jogged my memory. I remember some of the guys in senior shop class made flintlock and percussion pistols. YIKES!

 

[gizmo]

I dont know that its the NRA's responsibility to reduce gun violence..

The law abiding citizens that the NRA represents arent the people committing the gun related crimes..

For the most part, people with healthy minds arent committing the gun related crimes..

Gun safety education, hunter education, etc.. will do little to solve the problem.. gun safes and trigger locks wont fix it either.. nor will magazines with limited capacity, or semi-autos, etc..

Its the NRA's responsibility to protect the 2nd Amendment.

I think its society's responsibility to reduce gun violence.. Fix the American family, raise our children right, monitor their mental health, etc.. actually hold kids accountable for their actions.. teach them they arent entitled.. that just because they think they "feel" like a snow leopard today doesnt mean they get to claim that they are one.. that grown men CANT use the same bathroom as little girls.. etc...

and maybe then we'll start to see a decline in mass shooting incidents.. (it wont stop gang violence, criminal activity, etc.. seen in the major metro areas where there are strict gun laws in place.. the solution there is substantially different I believe)..

The NRA lobbying for lower divorce rates, better rearing of children, mental health testing of teens, and teaching snowflakes not to melt every time they dont get their way, or the world doesnt give them exactly what they want... or that the world has a way of holding you accountable for your actions, even when your friends and your parents wont... isnt really what the NRA does or is about..

Fixing the problem starts at the dinner table.. not in Washington...

I think reducing gun violence might lower pressure from those who seek to abolish the 2nd amendment..

But I also think that the way to reduce gun violence is by holding irresponsible parents, irresponsible mental health physicians, irresponsible courts, irresponsible educators, and irresponsible politicians accountable for their actions (or lack of actions)..

Plenty of people see the problem long before the problem becomes covered in violence.. they just chose to ignore it, excuse it, or blame it on someone/something else..

I also think the "gun violence" problem in this country is multi-faceted.. what is driving inner city gun violence and crime is very different than what is driving the issue with mass shootings..

If we want the NRA to shift its focus from educating people about firearms, lobbying for firearms rights, etc.. and begin to lobby for the prosecution of doctors, teachers, courts, and parents.. then they might be able to help reduce gun violence..

But I think that is the responsibility of the GOOD doctors, teachers, courts, and parents.. not the NRA..


I agree with your comment on swearing an oath.. I've sworn that oath on numerous occasions.. in a variety of roles/careers..

All members of the NRA however did not... (although, that said, I believe all American citizens, regardless of whether they ever raised their right hand and swore the oath you refer to... should live and abide by all of our nations laws, and relish in the freedoms and protections our constitution provides.. it always amazes me when people are more than willing, even deeply desire on some occasions to relinquish freedoms in the interest of something else, whether its safety, security, or simple efficiency or ease of getting something accomplished)..

Very very well said and you are exactly right.
When I was in 5 grade I took my old Le Fever Nitro side by side to school to do the same thing as Dale did. The principal asked me when I was walking down the hall with it if I wanted to do a demonstration and shoot it for everyone. I told him no that I didn’t bring any ammo and that I’d also have to clean it again. In 8th, 10th, and 11th I took several of my Civil War era gun’s to school along with a ton of other stuff for a living history demonstrations that I was asked to do.
Ya know in all cases no one freaked out and there wasn’t an issue. We used to have guns in our vehicles pretty much everyday during hunting seasons so we could hunt after school.
Now our kids have safe places where they can go cry over election results ( wtf is up with that, I remember the news reporting on that crap) the pledge of allegiance isn’t said in schools anymore, and a lot of our teachers are nothing more than socialist indoctrinators brain washing our youth.

 

[gizmo]

Excellent video and it is spot on.

 

[Royal27]

Islands of gun control obviously don't work.
Can't exclude some of the nuts in your country to screw with the stats. That's cheating.

I disagree. When the nuts are all within one geographic area as well as one type of governance it's a good and fair call out, no cheating to it. Saying everything should be lumped in together is like saying elephants should all be lumped together because they are all in Africa. Different areas have different problems and require different solutions.

As I always say, you guys are going to have to figure this one out somehow.

The number needs to drop further, no argument there. What always gets left out of these arguments though is the historical perspective. We are at a lower murder rate than we were during the "good old days" and that's including the inter-city hot spots. People need to look at the trends as well as recent data. This isn't a new issue that has popped up in the last five years, like liberals want everyone to believe.