Got the CZ blues

[machinistbutler]

I have a bunch of the rem 405 grain so, will load some dummies to the short length you had ,and some longer ones and see how they function in my cz Lott. I think there were two crimp cannelures on those, and the ones I made before I used the one closet to the base of the bullet which gave a longer col. Will let you know how it functions.

 

[Earle]

Thanks, much appreciated.

I have a bunch of the rem 405 grain so, will load some dummies to the short length you had ,and some longer ones and see how they function in my cz Lott. I think there were two crimp cannelures on those, and the ones I made before I used the one closet to the base of the bullet which gave a longer col. Will let you know how it functions.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Does a Blaser action suffer from any of these bolt gun issues? Just curious, since it seems to be a real advance. I will stick to my Ruger No1 though, never has a feeding problem!

 

[limpopo]

Does a Blaser action suffer from any of these bolt gun issues? Just curious, since it seems to be a real advance. I will stick to my Ruger No1 though, never has a feeding problem!

My experience, this was the only instance I ever had an feeding issue with any of my barrels and handloads- appears all related to cartridge length. With the large soft blunt nose and and short OAL with the 400 SP's, had two strikes against this combo for me, akin to getting an empty cart case to feed! As long as I got reliable feed/ejection with the hunt loads that was the end game for me. We handloaders open up a can of variables with various combo's and I don't have the expectation that a factory can check nor address each case. Yep No 1's are dead 100% reliable for any combo for this feature!

 

[machinistbutler]

Not a blaser, but I did have a bit of a misfeed with a K31 Swiss straight pull. No dangerous game involved, but a hell of a whitetail that I may have over anxiously worked the bolt a bit harsh.

 

[One Day...]

Does a Blaser action suffer from any of these bolt gun issues? Just curious, since it seems to be a real advance.

Of course they do Kevin. I am not surprised by this and in this case I blame it also on the ammo rather than the rifle.

But for example, another grand classic R8 quirk, that can be replicated at will by any R8 owner, is the fact that if one closes the R8 bolt forward too delicately while attempting to load silently, one is likely to be rewarded by a "click" rather than a "bang." This is because there are two distinct mechanical stages when closing a R8 bolt and one can inadvertently stop at the first one when manipulating the bolt slowly. This is the explanation for the usual and well known urging to slam the R8 bolt forward vigorously.

This would likely not happen on a turn bolt because a century of collective practice taught us to turn the bolt down, while the difference between the R8 two stages of bolt closure is merely 1/8th inch or so forward, but R8 lovers generally dismiss this as improper manual of arms rather than rifle issue.

As long as the firing pin does not hit the primer as this stage of bolt closure and the rifle does not fire, I guess that one who got a "click" once rather than a trophy will learn the quirk...

My experience, this was the only instance I ever had an feeding issue with any of my barrels and handloads- appears all related to cartridge length. With the large soft blunt nose and and short OAL with the 400 SP's, had two strikes against this combo for me, akin to getting an empty cart case to feed! As long as I got reliable feed/ejection with the hunt loads that was the end game for me. We handloaders open up a can of variables with various combo's and I don't have the expectation that a factory can check nor address each case. Yep No 1's are dead 100% reliable for any combo for this feature!

It is not often than R8 owners volunteer on AH to share the issues they have encountered. Blaser has been marvelously successful in creating a fiercely loyal customer base, well represented in this community. So, thank you for your candor limpopo.

I do not see it as a strike against the R8, mind you, I see it exactly for what you characterize it: home reloads occasionally create unexpected issues, as does home gunsmithing if I may add...

Looking retrospectively at the title of this post: "Got the CZ blues," it is more than likely going to count as yet another strike against CZ, although for those who read it entirely, the inescapable conclusion it that this is not a rifle issue but a reload issue...


PS: On that note, I might share than shooting reloads purchased from an unknown private party on the internet is quite a daring move. It is a good thing that this gentleman is apparently more reliable with powder charge weight than bullet weight..........................................

Pulled a couple bullets from the batch i bought, and sure enough they are 405g, not 450s like the nice man that sold them to me online assured me they were. Think i will pull them all, get some 500g of some barnes, nosler, etc and start from scratch. Then i'll know for sure what i have.

 

[TOBY458]

Feel your pain. I am dealing with one in 458 Lott. Been to CZ once. At Waynes for second time now. Issue it is having can not get a scope to zero at 100 yards. Run out of elevation in scopes trying to zero.

I would first try contact CZ about it.

Are you wishing you'd kept the Winchester 70 416?

 

[One Day...]

Scott Talley QD 30 mm. Swarovski Z6i 1-6
Scope bottomed out on elevation and is 12 inches low at 25 yards. 26 low at 100. This time around. Wayne had me send it to CZ and they said the fixed it. Worse now. Was only 10 low at 100 when I sent it to them. Thats why Wayne has it back now. Gun was new and sent to Wayne for a #1 and barrel shorten. He set up open sights and a Kahles red dot on it. No problems. Then I decided to scope and thats when the trouble started. Would not sight in with a scope. He said send to CZ. Well they made it worse. So Wayne has it now.

Ring height does not matter. Wayne thinks a barrel to bridge alignment issue

Wayne is likely correct Mark. This is not the first time this has happened, with CZ, or Remington, or Winchester, or ANY rifle maker you may think of etc. etc.

Threads?
In some cases, worn out cutting tools cut either barrel thread or action thread with enough burrs or gouges that the barrel screws out of alignment. This is rare. In an ideal world the action is re-threaded to a diameter a couple thousands wider, and a new barrel is threaded to match it, but the dirty secret is that this can generally also be solved by bending the barrel ever so slightly

Barrel blank?
Another classic issue, is a bent barrel blank, or more accurately a blank that did not go through the straightening process. This is way more common that people may think. Again, the dirty secret is that this can generally also be solved, quite easily, by bending/straightening the barrel

Action?
Another thing worth checking, is an action that has been bent out of alignment by over torquing action screws on bedded pillars imperfectly aligned. It is MUCH easier than one would think to bend the relatively thin action left wall and feeding rails. This can be checked easily with a laser bore sight shaped like a cartridge and chambered, and another laser rested on top BOTH bridges. If such is the case, the action generally comes back straight with metal elasticity when the torque is loosened, but if it was bent past metal elasticity, it may also be carefully bent back

Scary thoughts for sure, but not all that uncommon behind closed gunsmithing doors

For example, look at this short video:

And do not think that this is a dirty trick. Anchutz .22 LR barrels, world famous for all their Olympic records, ALL go through their self-described "special process" which ... tadaaaah !!! ... is nothing more than barrel bending/straightening...

Barrel bending/straightening press at Savage (USA)
(Photo http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117229-Barrel-straightening)

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Are you wishing you'd kept the Winchester 70 416?

Yes and no. If that makes since. I wish i had kept the 416 just because I took my first Buff with it. No because I probably would not ise it much if I had. I like the feel 458 since Wayne did his work. Just got to get it what is going on with it figured out. I have 5 CZs now. And so far this is the only one giving problems. Wayne is in contact with the higher ups at CZ and I have been assured it will be taken care of.

I like the 458 lott so much I already have another NIB CZ in 458 lott at the ready to send to Wayne. But first it goes to range to see if it will zero with Swarovski on it. If not it goes back to supplier I got if from as defective and they can deal with CZ. That was understanding when I bought it.

If it shouts good I will keep it till we find out what final out come of the first one is.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

@One Day
You are correct on the barrel bending. That is what CZ was supposed to have done correct it and they said it was but gun still would not sight in with Swarovski for me. That is why Wayne wanted it back after CZs work didnt seem to work.

 

[One Day...]

I am not surprised Mark. The problem with barrel bending as a fix to alignment issues, is that it is directional, which means that it must be done in the proper axis of the barrel fully screwed to the action. If the bending does not incorporate the proper - and very careful indeed - barrel indexing, results will be disappointing...

This is the drama of our current educational system: trade schools have virtually disappeared, and many younger gunsmiths do not know these old tricks. At Triple River (CZ's custom shop) for example, Harlan Satrang the aging and ailing owner retired for health reasons at the end of 2019, and this effectively killed the shop as his daughter Meagan, however good intended, does not have the beginning of her father's expertise and experience. I was all but lucky to get my last custom built (CZ 550 .300 WBy) from them at the time Mike, their experienced barrel machinist, was still there (February 2020), but he left soon after and took with him what know-how was left in the shop. Triple River have since closed permanently...

I do not know what alternative solution CZ has for custom work and these kinds of repair, but I suspect that after their decision to terminate the production of the CZ 550, they probably do not have much, if any, ability to do anything on CZ 550's in the US...

 

[Earle]

PS: On that note, I might share than shooting reloads purchased from an unknown private party on the internet is quite a daring move. It is a good thing that this gentleman is apparently more reliable with powder charge weight than bullet weight..........................................

Actually, these bullets were purchased on the understanding they were factory stock. I have the back and forth e-mails from the seller in which he refers to them twice as "factory ammo". I'm a guy that tends to believe someone, till they give me reason not to. I'm re-thinking my position on that. LOL.
The rifle is going into the shop later today and get smoothed up and since the seller mislead me on the bullet weight, i'm going to assume the powder charges are askew as well. Will pull all bullets, deprime the brass and check for length. If within specs i'll reload it. If not, i'll toss the entire lot and consider it a lesson learned, Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice.................

 

[machinistbutler]

The 458 Winchester brass dummy I loaded up on the second crimp groove functioned great in my CZ 458 Lott. Col was 3.230. took a few.pics and fed from both sides . Also took a pic of the different nose profiles of the 405 grain Remington, 450 swift Aframes, 500 grain nosler partition and solid. Next time I am home I will try and make a shorter one the length you had problems with. No gouges on the lead nose of the 405 grain after numerous chambering at this length.

 

[machinistbutler]

Couple more pics.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Yep No 1's are dead 100% reliable for any combo for this feature!

I submit that this varies by caliber. My .375 # feeds just about anything, but the more straight walled .458 does hang up if you try to slip blunt nosed loads in at too close to the horizontal. Nosler Partitions are slick and very fast and fool proof to chamber for a follow-up shot.

 

[rookhawk]

The important morale of the story well articulated by the valuable info on this thread, in summary:

CZs are problematic and unreliable safari rifles often when taken out of the box. What did someone expect, a really good safari rifle is in the $10,000+ range new if not a lot more.

And then the really good news:

Unlike most of the CZ competitors in the “economy” safari rifle market that aren’t worth the trouble, the CZ has good bones. For very few dollars a CZ can be converted into a very durable and trustworthy safari rifle. Probably the least expensive to buy and the cheapest to make “rock solid” of all options the economy options.

The troubles come in with denial, those that believe it’s impossible to get a quality rifle for safari for less than 5-figures on one side, and the equally unreasonable delusion that dropping $1700 on a CZ is getting a perfectly reliable dangerous game weapon out of the box on the other extreme.

The truth is right in the middle.

And for those that want instant gratification, there are a number of CZs out there that have had all the kinks worked out that hit the second hand market all the time.

 

[Roller]

The important morale of the story well articulated by the valuable info on this thread, in summary:

CZs are problematic and unreliable safari rifles often when taken out of the box. What did someone expect, a really good safari rifle is in the $10,000+ range new if not a lot more.

And then the really good news:

Unlike most of the CZ competitors in the “economy” safari rifle market that aren’t worth the trouble, the CZ has good bones. For very few dollars a CZ can be converted into a very durable and trustworthy safari rifle. Probably the least expensive to buy and the cheapest to make “rock solid” of all options the economy options.

The troubles come in with denial, those that believe it’s impossible to get a quality rifle for safari for less than 5-figures on one side, and the equally unreasonable delusion that dropping $1700 on a CZ is getting a perfectly reliable dangerous game weapon out of the box on the other extreme.

The truth is right in the middle.

And for those that want instant gratification, there are a number of CZs out there that have had all the kinks worked out that hit the second hand market all the time.

What about spending $1300 for a Model 70 Safari that works just fine out of the box and without having to send it back to the manufacturer, a custom builder for rework, or a gunsmith that has to straighten the barrel by beating it on a log? Is that a viable option to spending $10k+ on a "safari" rifle?

 

[colorado]

I think it is. I wouldn't trade my CZ 550 (probably have $2500.00 in it, but that includes rechambering and rebarreling from 375 H&H to 500 Jeffery) for a M70 in 375 H&H or 458, but if I was going to buy a 375 H&H I'd buy a new M70. I would still torture test it, feeding, extracting, slow, fast, with dummy loads hundreds of times making sure it was absolutely reliable. Not many rifles pass that test in the beginning

 

[rookhawk]

What about spending $1300 for a Model 70 Safari that works just fine out of the box and without having to send it back to the manufacturer, a custom builder for rework, or a gunsmith that has to straighten the barrel by beating it on a log? Is that a viable option to spending $10k+ on a "safari" rifle?

I'm not well versed on the current Model 70 winchesters and their caliber offerings. Is it a true magnum action with infinite caliber choices?

Usually people go to the CZ550 as a "knock off" of a magnum square bridge mauser action capable of everything from 404 Jeff, 416 rigby, 458 lott, 500 jeffery, and 505 Gibbs.

Is the action and magazine capacity of a modern Win70 safari comparable to the CZ features and ready to go out of the box? Or is it just a rifle for 375HH and perhaps 416 remington?

 

[machinistbutler]

I haven't seen a model 70 in 458 Lott yet personally. Have seen them in 375 and 458 win.