Good Gun Deals This Week

[318AE]

What is an "army navy" rifle?

It was made by Westley Richards, to be retailed by Army Navy. Many of the makers, especially in Birmingham, made rifles to be retailed by others, sometimes by retailers in India etc. Army Navy generally retailed working grade, rather than best grade, rifles.

 

[rookhawk]

Forgive me for so many “deals”, but 12k euros for a Westley Richards seems like a deal to me…even if it is an Army Navy.

.500NE Big Bore W-R Double Rifle | DORLEAC & DORLEAC

www.dorleac-dorleac.com

I agree with you! It’s been heavily restored (very well) so its not a collector gun, but its an immaculate hunting weapon for cheap money. Merkel money if you will. Only detriment I see is extractors but the 12,000 price tag more than makes up for that.

 

[mdsalern]

Exactly. And while I may be wrong, I looked at it as a Westley Richards is about $55-60k in perfect condition. A B-tier is $25k, which is what I’ve seen in the market. This A/N is half that. Deal!

 

[freefall]

The Army/Navy guns were bought from various makers by (I believe) the British government and sold to officers in the services at a reasonable price to enable them to engage in sporting pursuits, thus making their foreign postings more enjoyable.

 

[Major Bonkers]

That's not quite right, Freefall. The Army and Navy Co-operative Society was a Victorian/ Edwardian co-operative retailer open to members of the British armed forces and, later, the general public. My mother remembers it having a large shop in Victoria (a district of London), but I think it went to the wall in the '60s; it certainly does not exist now. I see that the last photograph on the Dorleac website is an old advertisement for the Society.

It did buy in Birmingham guns from WR, Webley and Scott, and so on, and retail them under its own name. The Westley Richards blog, 'The Explora', has had a recent piece about a similar rifle made for Lyon & Lyon in India: https://www.westleyrichards.com/the...ards-double-rifle-in-a-not-so-common-caliber/

 

[VertigoBE]

I agree with you! It’s been heavily restored (very well) so its not a collector gun, but its an immaculate hunting weapon for cheap money. Merkel money if you will. Only detriment I see is extractors but the 12,000 price tag more than makes up for that.

Would this one be something to consider, if one were on the lookout for a nice .500NE?

Or might there be better things out there still?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@ET1775 Thank you in advance. This is a good deal in what more experienced hunters than me consider an excellent all around chambering for a double rifle. This Heym 88B PH Model looks well cared for if, not almost new.

I have to admit that I have two Merkel 140 AE's that are being shipped from Holts in England. They include scoped .416 Rigby and .375 H&H rifles. I have enough dies, bullets, and brass for each cartridge so there won't he a scavenger hunt to load for them. I have none of those components for the 450-400 cartridge, unfortunately.

So, having a .416 Rigby double and the loading components for it on the way, logic tells me that I do not need a 450-400. But all my doubles will all be chambered for rimless cartridges, not rimless that one can drop into the chambers without having to push over the extractor pawls. Further, while being a perfectly adequate Merkel, it isn't a Heym. Someday I will do a side by side comparison of my Heym and Merkel doubles and not only list but rate the operational differences. Maybe there will be none that are noticeable. Then there is my upcoming trip to South Africa. Must avoid temptation...

Good luck to you and please, save me from an alluring act of fiscal irresponsibility!

Yes Mark please do that comparison.

 

[rookhawk]

Would this one be something to consider, if one were on the lookout for a nice .500NE?

Or might there be better things out there still?

Entirely possible based upon the gun in question, @VertigoBE . ANCSL guns by their actual makers usually command exactly the same money so there is little savings. The fact that Simon Clode of WR verified this gun was made at WR is a neat fact, but it is an exception to that rule in that it is not bringing a premium even though WR verified its origination.

Today, all records of ANCSL are held at the University of Glasgow and a ledger lookup can be performed for £75.

 

[rookhawk]

Here's a story that is applicable to the recent emails I've received. Perhaps you'll find the tale an allegory to other guns many people email me about.

About 12 years ago I wanted to get some nice British shotguns at auction in the UK. Knowing that there are some guns that rally to very high prices and there are other guns that sell too cheap, I created a thoughtful bidding strategy and targeted 16 lots to bid upon believing I'd win the bids on 4-8 of them. I also was painfully aware of the numerous hidden surcharges of buying at a UK auction house as an American: Fx currency rates, international wire fees, 22.5% VAT that is near impossible to receive in return, US importation fees on a BATF form 6, UK storage/carriage/permit fees, International shipping, US duty, and finally the "last mile" freight from the US customs broker to a US FFL, plus the FFL charges to me the customer.

As part of my strategy, I decided to bid on the guns I really wanted to own and a couple of true "stinkers". The turds were best-maker guns that were all-kinda-wrong but I thought either A.) I could plug my nose and maybe learn to love the turds based upon name association, or B.) I could sell off whatever ultimately was a turd not strategic to my collecting which would cover some of the aggregate fees it takes to do an import.

I won't trouble you with the good guns I purchased, but I'll tell you about the turd. A 12-bore Purdey, thumbhole underlever, extractor, sleeved, restocked, shotgun. It was overweight by a heavy handed sleeving job. The fine engraving was worn thin and the action was polished bright. The stock was a trade-quality replacement. The hammers were replacements. The hammer screws were mismatched replacements. The extractor spade was broken. The strikers holes were so eroded someone bushed them to bring the gun

Anyway, it arrived and I sent it out for proper vintage screws to replace those on the hammers, plus a look over of the gun, plus a repair of the extractor spade.

Now mechanically acceptable and cosmetically a bit better, I held the gun in my hands and about wanted to puke. Yes, it was a Purdey, no it was not the quality of any of the inferior maker guns I bought, not even in the same league.

So what could I do? I couldn’t sell this thing to anyone because my reputation dictates I only own quality and if I sell something out of my collection, it’s just because it doesn’t suit the collection. This gun was garbage and I can’t sell someone garbage.

So I sent it to a dealer. My cost basis was about $1500. It sold for $5800. I pity the poor fool that bought into the name without thinking of the quality of the gun.

There are a lot of guns like this on the Net. Some of them come home to roost in the AH classifieds. Priced 10% less or at par with pristine examples, people still buy this stuff.

What I want you to take from this is buy the gun, not the maker. Collector grade best guns are 1:100 and time and time again people overpay for guns no astute collector would own. Just because you recognize the maker doesn’t mean the subject weapon has any collector value left in it at all.

 

[Rare Breed]

I agree with you! It’s been heavily restored (very well) so its not a collector gun, but its an immaculate hunting weapon for cheap money. Merkel money if you will. Only detriment I see is extractors but the 12,000 price tag more than makes up for that.

Rookhawk. I filled out the request form for this rifle. It was in French. I asked how I can get this rifle given I have no idea. Appreciate any guidance you may have. I also asked an estimated total cost to get the gun into my hands. Your thoughts?

 

[rookhawk]

Rookhawk. I filled out the request form for this rifle. It was in French. I asked how I can get this rifle given I have no idea. Appreciate any guidance you may have. I also asked an estimated total cost to get the gun into my hands. Your thoughts?

Normally, what you asked isn't the seller's problem. You just put money in their hands and you suffer the inconveniences of export and import. However, Dorleac is a world-class dealer so surely they do handle this stuff. Your duty will be to find a cooperating importer in the US to take receipt of it and file the necessary import paperwork. There are cheaper options, but for ~$1500 Griffin & Howe does this kind of work all the time.

 

[Rare Breed]

I agree with you! It’s been heavily restored (very well) so its not a collector gun, but its an immaculate hunting weapon for cheap money. Merkel money if you will. Only detriment I see is extractors but the 12,000 price tag more than makes up for that.

Rookhawk I have contacted them and am getting ready to wire the money. I got the English translation and it has been completely refurbished by a very repretable gunsmith in England. Any further thoughts before I wire the funds?

 

[rookhawk]

Rookhawk I have contacted them and am getting ready to wire the money. I got the English translation and it has been completely refurbished by a very repretable gunsmith in England. Any further thoughts before I wire the funds?

Not really much more to be said. $12,000 double rifles in nice restored shape. British. Only thing to pay attention to would be the drops at heel and comb. I think they should be around 1-1/2” and 2-1/8”. The length of pull is quite long (good) if my French-Metric translation and conversion of the advert was correct.

 

[rookhawk]

Not really much more to be said. $12,000 double rifles in nice restored shape. British. Only thing to pay attention to would be the drops at heel and comb. I think they should be around 1-1/2” and 2-1/8”. The length of pull is quite long (good) if my French-Metric translation and conversion of the advert was correct.

The ANCSL advertisement translated to English and converted from Metric to Imperial:

This imposing "Big Bore" double express was made by WESTLEY RICHARDS & C° Ltd in 1908 for ARMY & NAVY CS Ltd (Army & Navy Store Co-Operative Society Limited)[1] in London.
It uses the original system of Sirs William Anson & John Deeley as patented in April 1884.
The strong rocker implements a Purdey double lock closure backed by a third key lock at the headstock.
The 28” barrels, chambered for the formidable .500NE 3", tilt on a large diameter pin and retain, despite their age and the use of cordite, a very good condition and a very clean soul with well marked scratches.
Their convergence, set at 60 yards for the 570-grain bullet, is ensured by a one-piece wedge at the muzzle.
The interrupted band carries an express rise with five leaves lined with a gold thread set on a front sight combined with a moon sight under a sliding protection.
The stock, redone in a superb highly veined walnut, is 15” long and ends with a Silver's butt plate in red rubber.
The abbreviated front is locked by a Purdey pusher under a scalloped hood.
The weapon was completely restored by Alfred SCHILLING who kept the original engraving before applying his famous jaspage to the box.
The net weight of this "Big Game Double Rifle" is 11.9lbs.


Postscript: Everything looks pretty legit to me. The advert references good barrels with some scratches. Because of its age, it needs a standard load of IMR3031 to the Kynoch pressures using a traditional Woodleigh soft or Woodleigh traditional solid. Plenty enough for Elephant, Hippo, and Buffalo.

 

[Rare Breed]

Not really much more to be said. $12,000 double rifles in nice restored shape. British. Only thing to pay attention to would be the drops at heel and comb. I think they should be around 1-1/2” and 2-1/8”. The length of pull is quite long (good) if my French-Metric translation and conversion of the advert was correct.

Thanks!!! Can’t wait to get it! I have been told will probably take 8 weeks to get door to door. Thanks for the Griffin & Howe recommendation. They have already responded to me. It seems a pain to buy in UK and ship but this gun seems well worth it

 

[Rare Breed]

Thanks!!! Can’t wait to get it! I have been told will probably take 8 weeks to get door to door. Thanks for the Griffin & Howe recommendation. They have already responded to me. It seems a pain to buy in UK and ship but this gun seems well worth it

Agree. I will use IMR3031 at 80 grains. I will shoot sledgehammer solids and Swift A-Frame softs. Any problems with this from your experience please?

thanjs!

 

[rookhawk]

Agree. I will use IMR3031 at 80 grains. I will shoot sledgehammer solids and Swift A-Frame softs. Any problems with this from your experience please?

thanjs!

Both are fine bullets. If it were me, I’d just stick with the Kynoch original loading of Woodleigh softs and solids because they are extra gentle on the barrels and it is exactly what the gun was made to use a hundred years ago. A phone call to Ken Owen and you’d probably get the exact IMR3031 recipes to duplicate the cordite. With that setup, you’d probably have it perfectly regulated on first, second, or third try. (1 to 1.5gr range to find perfection)

Best part, it comes with a guarantee from me! If you don’t like the gun, mail it to me and I’ll buy you an equal price brand new Merkel for you to use instead!

 

[thriller]

Not sure if this is a deal, but it seems like a reasonably priced rifle in a brand and caliber suited to the membership. The listing says .30-06 although the link is different.

BRNO CUSTOM MAUSER 30-06 — Steve Barnett Fine Guns | High-End Shotguns, Rifles, Pistols, and Revolvers For Sale

SBFG 21975 23" BARREL WITH SIGHTS EXCELLENT WITH LIGHT WEAR 6LBS 11 OZ 14 LOP

stevebarnettfineguns.com

I have bought several guns from him over the years and I have to say everything is as advertised and they are easy to deal with. He specializes in high end gun collections so he has some good deals from time to time on stuff like this that is not what he was really looking for when he bought the collection.

 

[mdsalern]

I’m very glad you did it Rare Breed. Congratulations!

 

[cash_tx]

Went to the Fort Worth Gun Show today. Didn’t sell anything, but saw this and thought someone here might like a good deal. I can pass along the seller’s info.

Hogback CZ 375 H&H Mag. Asking $1395

View attachment 485253View attachment 485254View attachment 485255

I was at the Fort Worth show this past Saturday as well, but not sure if I remember this one; there was so much to see! I'm all set in the 375 H&H department, but that does look like a pretty good deal right there.