Going to Africa looking for a Winchester 416

[Ontario Hunter]

Too bad I have to live in the real world without “magical Goldilocks bullets”.
Physics and rifle fit is what contributes to felt recoil.

I am still waiting to see my .404 Jeffery completed. Components for the .404 come at a premium and availability is low compared to other calibers.
Curious as to what the round count is on your .404?

It’s a very very special world you live in @Ontario Hunter. I am always amazed at how you can turn any thread to being about you.

Magical I guess.

Component availability is getting better. The 404 is fast becoming the latest African darling caliber. I expect availability for ammo and components will blossom over the next couple of years.

Only less than thirty rounds fired through it so far. I didn't get the gun finished until a week or so before leaving for Africa at end of August. Then tied up waterfowl hunting till leaving at the end of October to hunt birds and deer in Montana. The 404 went with me and fired one shot at a coyote. Missed. Hard to believe, eh? Ranges were closed here by the time I came home in December.

I see no reason to be poking buffalo with 400 gr bullets when lighter modern tech will do the job. I'm looking at stepping down to 325 or even 257 gr Cutting Edge. The latter can be gassed up to almost 3K fps. Both bullets would seem to be comparable to 375 and I know from experience it works. If I was inclined to hunt elephant (and definitely am not), sliding back up to 400 gr would do the job.

OP seems to be exploring other options besides 416 Rem. Just thought I'd throw out 404J for consideration.

 

[RR 314]

Mr. Red Leg, the man who fired 17 times at the Buffalo was in camp with me. The shooting took place over the course of a day. Once the bull was wounded, he was tracked and fired at on several occasions.

Recovery of this buffalo ultimately required the use of a helicopter.

All of this happened this August and I was there , it is not a fairy tale from some place long ago.

I will be happy to discuss more details wirh you privately.

I can also provide the names of the PHs who told me the 416 is a more decisive cartridge.

I do not like being called a liar. I suspect you would be more reluctant to do so face to face.

I enjoy taking different rifles with me to Africa. I ended up taking my .458 Lott last time for buffalo, but my PH told me he loves the .416 for Cape buffalo! I’ll see if I still have his WhatsApp message.

 

[Red Leg]

Magical I guess.

Component availability is getting better. The 404 is fast becoming the latest African darling caliber. I expect availability for ammo and components will blossom over the next couple of years.

Only less than thirty rounds fired through it so far. I didn't get the gun finished until a week or so before leaving for Africa at end of August. Then tied up waterfowl hunting till leaving at the end of October to hunt birds and deer in Montana. The 404 went with me and fired one shot at a coyote. Missed. Hard to believe, eh? Ranges were closed here by the time I came home in December.

I see no reason to be poking buffalo with 400 gr bullets when lighter modern tech will do the job. I'm looking at stepping down to 325 or even 257 gr Cutting Edge. The latter can be gassed up to almost 3K fps. Both bullets would seem to be comparable to 375 and I know from experience it works. If I was inclined to hunt elephant (and definitely am not), sliding back up to 400 gr would do the job.

OP seems to be exploring other options besides 416 Rem. Just thought I'd throw out 404J for consideration.

Have you checked the SD on the 325 and especially that 257? I would think the latter might be like hitting something with a fast moving ashtray. The 300 gr .375 and 400 gr 416 both exceed .300 in SD. That is a pretty magical number for deep penetrating DG loads.

 

[lil 2 sleepy]

OP send me a PM. I may know where one is available, but I’m not sure what the year and what goodies it has.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Have you checked the SD on the 325 and especially that 257? I would think the latter might be like hitting something with a fast moving ashtray. The 300 gr .375 and 400 gr 416 both exceed .300 in SD. That is a pretty magical number for deep penetrating DG loads.

I was thinking the 257 gr might work well for plains game. At that speed I should get some milage if needed with pleasant recoil. I will compute sectional density for 357 gr before committing. Those should have more than enough gas to compensate for less density. Less than 300 gr 375 worked very well killing buffalo for me. Per my PH, the key was modern bullet technology + added velocity.

 

[Ruraldoc]

300 grain 375s and 400 grain 416s are the way to go with lead core bullets.

In Monolythic bullets the 270 grain 375 and 350 grain 416 are as light as I would go on dangerous game.

Mass still counts because the momentum of a bullet is a function of mass and velocity and momentum is critical for penetration.

I verified this with Hornady when I asked about their 250 grain GMX bullet in 375 for buffalo. They do not recommend it on anything larger or tougher than eland.

There are limits in terms of dropping weights with monolithic bullets. The monolithics need to weigh around 80 to 90% of their lead core counterparts if we want to he sure of adequate penetration.
Anything less begins to sacrifice too much sectional density, mass, and momentum.

 

[smp005]

Mr. Red Leg, the man who fired 17 times at the Buffalo was in camp with me. The shooting took place over the course of a day. Once the bull was wounded, he was tracked and fired at on several occasions.

Recovery of this buffalo ultimately required the use of a helicopter.

All of this happened this August and I was there , it is not a fairy tale from some place long ago.

I will be happy to discuss more details wirh you privately.

I can also provide the names of the PHs who told me the 416 is a more decisive cartridge.

I do not like being called a liar. I suspect you would be more reluctant to do so face to face.

I think I know who that hunter is - first time hunter to Africa, lots of money to burn, poor shot with no experience….

 

[ActionBob]

I verified this with Hornady when I asked about their 250 grain GMX bullet in 375 for buffalo. They do not recommend it on anything larger or tougher than eland.

It's crap on eland as well. Works great on black bear...

 

[Ruraldoc]

Someone here used the 250 grain GMX on cape buffalo and posted pictures of a recovered bullet or two. They looked like they were pretty well flattened out and were not particularly confidence inspiring.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I think I know who that hunter is - first time hunter to Africa, lots of money to burn, poor shot with no experience….

Would his name be LaPierre?

 

[Rez Exelon]

Would his name be LaPierre?

LaPierre --- the guy that believes the only way to stop a bad guy with a guy is a hiding on a friends mega yacht?

 

[russ473]

Another thought is to use a big enough calibre that you are comfortable shooting in order to place your 1st shot accurately, the 1st shot is important..

 

[Dr Ray]

Hi just wondering if anyone knows where I can get a Winchester model 70 416 REM MAG. I would appreciate any leads!!

416 REM
When you are as bout to shoot something big believe me you won’t feel the recoil

 

[Dhutson]

What are you hunting? A .375 will be much easier to find and just as effective on dangerous game. I own a .404, 500-416, 470, and 450. I use one of my .375's because I prefer it.

I agree the 375 will do all you need. They are much easier to find and the ammo is readily available. It will most definitely do the job. Use a a good 300 grain bullet and it will bring anything down you want to shoot.

 

[Red Leg]

I was thinking the 257 gr might work well for plains game. At that speed I should get some milage if needed with pleasant recoil. I will compute sectional density for 357 gr before committing. Those should have more than enough gas to compensate for less density. Less than 300 gr 375 worked very well killing buffalo for me. Per my PH, the key was modern bullet technology + added velocity.

Might also look at trajectory down range as well. Light for caliber bullets go faster at the muzzle, but also shed it much quicker than bullets with higher SD.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

BearHunter - I am curious why you want the 416 Rem Mag instead of the old tried and true 416 Rigby? The Rigby might be easier to locate. For what it is worth, when I was planning for my 1st hunt in Africa I was also going to hunt for Cape Buffalo and had, like you decided that a 416 (in my case a Rigby) was the best combination of enough gun with manageable recoil and flat enough trajectory to be more useable for other game. As I expanded my search, I found a nice FN Browning Safari Grade rifle chambered in 375HH. This rifle was the larger version of my PG rifle which is also a FN rifle in 308. Having done some homework on the 375, the best info I can find would suggest that if we stick to 300g A-frames or Barnes TSX bullets for the 1st shot and Woodleigh Hydro or other similar cup point solids for the follow-ups, then the 375 is going to be more than enough gun for buffalo or most other DG and is flat enough and easy enough on the shooter to be used on all PG. I would still like to find a nice 416 but it is no longer a priority. BTW - I have a 458WM also, just because I found a good deal on one. I have a buddy who had a like new CZ550 that is in 458WM which is for sale including a few boxes of soft and solid ammo. His price is $2,100. PM for details if interested.

Good luck with the search. I would suggest that you follow some of the on-line auction houses to find your rifle. These cater to families of collectors and hunters who have passed on and the kids do not want Pop's old guns so they sell these prized heirlooms to get the money. I have found some amazing nice rifles this way. They just sold a ton of Win 70 and Mauser type big bore hunting rifles a few months ago and I see a few sell every year.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Physics dictates that a 416 is a better DG calibre than a 375, and 458 is a better DG calibre than a 416, with the proviso that you are able to shoot all equally well. I own all three, and have hunted DG with all of them.
I'm not the biggest fan of a 375 as a DG rifle, simply because I can shoot my 416 equally well, and 400 grains just has more authority than 300 grains. The same applies to my 458, which has 500 grain.
A friend, who has wounded and lost two buffs with his 375, commented on the ruthless efficiency of which my 458 flattens a buffalo - "Why the #*@& did I ever shoot at a buffalo with that pea shooter."
The 375 is more than adequate to kill all the DG species. The question is, why should I use adequate if I can use more than enough. Learn to shoot a 416, it's the ultimate client calibre in my opinion.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Concerning the 17 shots fired at the Buffalo.

The client was drinking and pretty grumpy that evening so I do not know if he fired every round or how many were complete misses or how many were poorly placed hits.

The outfitter told me the client finally dispatched the buffalo on the 17th shot which involved the use of a helicopter.

I suppose I should tell the rest of the story, there were three clients hunting buffalo in camp. I was the only one without a rodeo of multiple shots. I killed my buffalo with a single 400 grain Swift A Frame. It killed him not merely dead but really most sincerely dead.

You have already heard about the 17 shot rodeo. Unbelievably enough another client had a multiple shot situation involving a helicopter to recover the animal. He was using a 460 Weatherby.

So the placement of the first shot trumps everything else. I think the 416 is a Goldilocks cartridge. Not too big to shoot well, not too little to decisively handle anything

That’s just me. If recoil ever starts to be a problem I’ll step down to a 375. I have two of them. If I struggled with a 375, I’d use my 9.3x62.

But the original poster asked about a M70 in 416 which I have and consider an excellent choice.

But everyone has their limit. I have a Brno 602 in 458 Lott, I can shoot my 416 better than the big Brno,so unless I master the Lott, I’m sticking with the 416.

So the buffalo were finally killed shooting from a helicopter? That kinda takes the danger out if dangerous game hunting.

 

[Ruraldoc]

I don’t know the details of the helocopter recovery and did not ask questions.

Not my circus…

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Physics dictates that a 416 is a better DG calibre than a 375, and 458 is a better DG calibre than a 416, with the proviso that you are able to shoot all equally well. I own all three, and have hunted DG with all of them.
I'm not the biggest fan of a 375 as a DG rifle, simply because I can shoot my 416 equally well, and 400 grains just has more authority than 300 grains. The same applies to my 458, which has 500 grain.
A friend, who has wounded and lost two buffs with his 375, commented on the ruthless efficiency of which my 458 flattens a buffalo - "Why the #*@& did I ever shoot at a buffalo with that pea shooter."
The 375 is more than adequate to kill all the DG species. The question is, why should I use adequate if I can use more than enough. Learn to shoot a 416, it's the ultimate client calibre in my opinion.

There is such a thing as too much gun. Spontaneous retina detachments from excessive recoil are very real threats for any who are past middle age, especially those who are diabetic or significantly near sighted. I know all about it ... and I'm neither diabetic or near sighted. My first detachment occurred at age 51. Saving my eyesight was touch and go over the next ten years.