Going to Africa looking for a Winchester 416

[Dewald]

I never got too much of a liking for the .416 Rem Mag. Some friends own them and they are heavy kickers Then I impulsively bought a .416 Ruger years later… also high chamber pressure, more scarce cartridge and with a stout kick compared to the .416 Rigby… go figure… but the Tupperware Alaskan serves its purpose, and does it well. Personally if I go .416 it will be a Rigby.

As far as buffalo is concerned a friend recently dropped a bull for KZN Ezemvelo parks-board, whom were not armed, with a 9,3x62 and 286gr Woodleigh softs with one shot. The bull broke out of the Opathi Game reserve and trotted down the Ulundi main road, mock charging cattle herders.

You should really be considered armed well and be more versatile with a .375 and 300gr Swift A-frames, TSX, or Woodleighs.

 

[Ruraldoc]

On the other hand, I have had more than one PH tell me that a 416 is a more decisive killer on buffalo provided you shoot it well.

This summer I kilied my first bull with my M70 in 416, he ran a very short distance and fell over dead. My friend Joe shot two bulls with his 416. All of these kills were very quick without any drama or danger.

Meanwhile another hunter in camp needed 17 shots to kill his bull, with a 375.

I was taught that with dangerous game, bigger is better provided one can shoot the bigger cartridge effectively.

I know of one well known Zimbabwe PH who bought a M70 in 416 this year for his clients to use on buffalo. He tries to get the ones who arrive with a 375 to use his 416.

He did this because he is convinced it kills quicker on lung/ heart shots.

If the recoil of the 416 is too much,then by all means use something smaller, but if you can handle it, bigger is not a bad thing on animals that can kill you.

 

[Red Leg]

On the other hand, I have had more than one PH tell me that a 416 is a more decisive killer on buffalo provided you shoot it well.

This summer I kilied my first bull with my M70 in 416, he ran a very short distance and fell over dead. My friend Joe shot two bulls with his 416. All of these kills were very quick without any drama or danger.

Meanwhile another hunter in camp needed 17 shots to kill his bull, with a 375.

I was taught that with dangerous game, bigger is better provided one can shoot the bigger cartridge effectively.

I know of one well known Zimbabwe PH who bought a M70 in 416 this year for his clients to use on buffalo. He tries to get the ones who arrive with a 375 to use his 416.

He did this because he is convinced it kills quicker on lung/ heart shots.

If the recoil of the 416 is too much,then by all means use something smaller, but if you can handle it, bigger is not a bad thing on animals that can kill you.

You have met the only PH that I have heard of, much less actually met, who advocates such a thing. I may be wrong, but I suspect I have been around the continent as much as most. A client has exactly one job. Put the first shot exactly where it needs to go. Do that with a 300 or 400 gr A Frame and everyone goes home happy. Screw that up, and everyone can have a very bad day regardless of caliber.

By the way, I have heard some rather outrageous number of shot stories around a lot of fire pits, but yours is the new champ! Unless the other hunter in camp was shooting by braille, I think I'll call the 17 shot tale as pure BS.

I shoot my .404, 50/416. 470, and 450 comfortably and accurately. I actually use my .375 because it is has proven the best choice for me for buffalo and PG.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You have met the only PH that I have heard of, much less actually met, who advocates such a thing. I may be wrong, but I suspect I have been around the continent as much as most. A client has exactly one job. Put the first shot exactly where it needs to go. Do that with a 300 or 400 gr A Frame and everyone goes home happy. Screw that up, and everyone can have a very bad day regardless of caliber.

By the way, I have heard some rather outrageous number of shot stories around a lot of fire pits, but yours is the new champ! Unless the other hunter in camp was shooting by braille, I think I'll call the 17 shot tale as pure BS.

I shoot my .404, 50/416. 470, and 450 comfortably and accurately. I actually use my .375 because it is has proven the best choice for me for buffalo and PG.

He did say seventeen shots total fired. Doesn't mean seventeen shots hit the buffalo. Perhaps a lot of atmosphere was wounded? However, I do find it hard to believe any hunter would pack a full box of 375 ammo when stalking buffalo. But I guess the PH could have driven the client back to the lodge to restock his arsenal. Would love to see that video. On second thought, maybe not.

 

[fin003]

Welcome to the forum, you are in the right place!

 

[TROPHY SHIPPERS]

Welcome to AH! Nice to have you on the site. If you are interested in our services please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

[Ruraldoc]

Mr. Red Leg, the man who fired 17 times at the Buffalo was in camp with me. The shooting took place over the course of a day. Once the bull was wounded, he was tracked and fired at on several occasions.

Recovery of this buffalo ultimately required the use of a helicopter.

All of this happened this August and I was there , it is not a fairy tale from some place long ago.

I will be happy to discuss more details wirh you privately.

I can also provide the names of the PHs who told me the 416 is a more decisive cartridge.

I do not like being called a liar. I suspect you would be more reluctant to do so face to face.

 

[Ruraldoc]

By the way the PH who purchased the M70 in 416 for his clients to use on buffalo is Mr, Tinie Kok of Mbalabala safaris in Zimbabwe. This information came from my neighbor who hunted with him in September. He did this after years of proving a 375 as a loaner gun.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Mr. Red Leg, the man who fired 17 times at the Buffalo was in camp with me. The shooting took place over the course of a day. Once the bull was wounded, he was tracked and fired at on several occasions.

Recovery of this buffalo ultimately required the use of a helicopter.

All of this happened this August and I was there , it is not a fairy tale from some place long ago.

I will be happy to discuss more details wirh you privately.

I can also provide the names of the PHs who told me the 416 is a more decisive cartridge.

I do not like being called a liar. I suspect you would be more reluctant to do so face to face.

@Ruraldoc
Actually, your account is extremely plausible. When I hunted in Tanzania in 1978, I was present when my friend Dave Bourban had a very messy Cape buffalo hunt. The bull took 14 shots (nine from Dave's .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and five from our white hunter's .458 Winchester Magnum).

So 17 is quite plausible.

I also agree with another assessment of yours. Despite being the biggest endorser of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, my field experience has shown me that (all other factors being equal) a .416 Remington Magnum will down a Cape buffalo relatively faster than a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum with double lung shots.

With modern premium grade expanding bullets, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum will kill fast enough. But with the same bullets, a .416 Remington Magnum will kill slightly faster.

 

[318AE]

On the other hand, I have had more than one PH tell me that a 416 is a more decisive killer on buffalo provided you shoot it well.

This summer I kilied my first bull with my M70 in 416, he ran a very short distance and fell over dead. My friend Joe shot two bulls with his 416. All of these kills were very quick without any drama or danger.

Meanwhile another hunter in camp needed 17 shots to kill his bull, with a 375.

I was taught that with dangerous game, bigger is better provided one can shoot the bigger cartridge effectively.

I know of one well known Zimbabwe PH who bought a M70 in 416 this year for his clients to use on buffalo. He tries to get the ones who arrive with a 375 to use his 416.

He did this because he is convinced it kills quicker on lung/ heart shots.

If the recoil of the 416 is too much,then by all means use something smaller, but if you can handle it, bigger is not a bad thing on animals that can kill you.

Early in my years hunting in Africa (>25 years ago) I had the good fortune of hunting with some remarkably experienced PHs, that themselves carried a 375 on buffalo hunts (as some insight, one of them had the cast and set of the Hatari movie hosted in their house, as their farm was what is now Mt Meru national park). They were from a prior generation, with experience more difficult for current PHs to obtain, in terms of shear numbers of game taken. I’ll admit, in one of these early hunts I had a newly produced Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby (by far the only Rigby I could afford at the time), while my PH had a very well used M70 in 375. It looked a lot like the Wally Johnson rifle that was for sale some time ago. No blueing remaining, and a stock that was almost black. My interest and choices have changed over the decades.…. I also don’t always find greatest satisfaction in the highest utility choice.

A M70 416 will certainly work. If that strikes a cord for you, go for it. Just know that in the field, with modern bullets, it does not provide any real advantage for a client in terms of shot placement or effectiveness.

 

[MontanaGrant]

As all here have said the .375 h&h is a good round and very effective.

BUT. Don’t let them discourage you from a .416. It’s a good round and as long as you can handle the recoil it will be a much more effective cartridge. .416 recoil is impressive but controllable, and remington recoil is manageable as far as large bores go.

 

[Red Leg]

Mr. Red Leg, the man who fired 17 times at the Buffalo was in camp with me. The shooting took place over the course of a day. Once the bull was wounded, he was tracked and fired at on several occasions.

Recovery of this buffalo ultimately required the use of a helicopter.

All of this happened this August and I was there , it is not a fairy tale from some place long ago.

I will be happy to discuss more details wirh you privately.

I can also provide the names of the PHs who told me the 416 is a more decisive cartridge.

I do not like being called a liar. I suspect you would be more reluctant to do so face to face.

Fair enough - your story does now hold the record. I am curious however, was the PH firing away with his .416 as well or was the client taking all 17 shots with his anemic .375? I would have assumed one or two rounds from the .416 would have instantly ended the confrontation.

The point I and others have made is that the first shot needs to be in exactly the right spot. Screw that up with a .375 or .500 and everyone can be in for a long day. A 300 or 350 gr .375 or 400 gr 416 through the heart, lungs, or plumbing above the heart will put down any buffalo on the planet. Miss that target group and bad things will almost certainly happen regardless of caliber.

And if Tinie Kok or any other outfitter tried to force me to use his .416, he could find me another PH instead.

 

[ActionBob]

You have met the only PH that I have heard of, much less actually met, who advocates such a thing. I may be wrong, but I suspect I have been around the continent as much as most.

On my one and only elephant hunt to date, the PH was emailing back and discussing rifles and calibers. I had a Winchester M70 375 and he clearly but politely was suggesting a larger caliber.

It was then that I came across my first 505 Gibbs and bought it. Acquired some ammo and found it to be very shootable. The PH was in favor of bringing both. However I soon discovered some feeding issues with the 505 and ended up sending it to Triple River to be re-worked. It was soon evident that rifle was not going to be available for my rapidly approaching hunt.

I ordered a M70 in 416 Rem Mag. Back then it was a matter of a few days to get one and I could have just as easily gotten a 458 Win Mag. However looking at ballistic data i decided on the 416. The PH was asking about the 505 Gibbs as his brother has one. He was clearly a fan of clients having a 458. His comments we that on a brain shot, if you miss the brain, there is just that extra shock to knock the elephant down.

I had the 375 with and used it to shoot an Impala. Shot the elephant and a buffalo with the 416 Rem Mag.

Never used that 416 since, pulled the scope and mounted it on the 505 Gibbs and shot a buffalo with that with absolute devastating effect

That Winchester M70 416 is a great rifle! Wieghs a half pound less than the 375 version. And that half pound makes a difference at mile 10 walking behind elephant i may or may not ever hunt with it again as i have so many others to choose from. But I find it difficult to part with...

@BearHunter77 I do have a very beautiful Winchester Big 5 M70 416 Rem Mag engraved and gold embossed with a buffalo on the floor plate and other embellishments It is As New in the box with the Winchester Custom Shop letter. That I'd sell but it's expensive.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Mr. Red Leg, the man who fired 17 times at the Buffalo was in camp with me. The shooting took place over the course of a day. Once the bull was wounded, he was tracked and fired at on several occasions.

Recovery of this buffalo ultimately required the use of a helicopter.

All of this happened this August and I was there , it is not a fairy tale from some place long ago.

I will be happy to discuss more details wirh you privately.

I can also provide the names of the PHs who told me the 416 is a more decisive cartridge.

I do not like being called a liar. I suspect you would be more reluctant to do so face to face.

How many times was the poor beast actually hit? I don't think more time at the range would have made any difference. That client was obviously hopeless. Don't blame it on the 375! Maybe a 416 might provide a  slight advantage in the event of a marginally placed first shot, but this guy was clearly incapable of even marginal. After the fourth missed/messed shot the PH should have been doing the right thing for that buffalo and put it down himself. Letting that idiot shoot at it seventeen times is disgraceful. Crap like that gives African hunting a black eye. I think at least a reprimand from the association was in order. I know I wouldn't hunt with that outfit.

 

[Ruraldoc]

Concerning the 17 shots fired at the Buffalo.

The client was drinking and pretty grumpy that evening so I do not know if he fired every round or how many were complete misses or how many were poorly placed hits.

The outfitter told me the client finally dispatched the buffalo on the 17th shot which involved the use of a helicopter.

I suppose I should tell the rest of the story, there were three clients hunting buffalo in camp. I was the only one without a rodeo of multiple shots. I killed my buffalo with a single 400 grain Swift A Frame. It killed him not merely dead but really most sincerely dead.

You have already heard about the 17 shot rodeo. Unbelievably enough another client had a multiple shot situation involving a helicopter to recover the animal. He was using a 460 Weatherby.

So the placement of the first shot trumps everything else. I think the 416 is a Goldilocks cartridge. Not too big to shoot well, not too little to decisively handle anything

That’s just me. If recoil ever starts to be a problem I’ll step down to a 375. I have two of them. If I struggled with a 375, I’d use my 9.3x62.

But the original poster asked about a M70 in 416 which I have and consider an excellent choice.

But everyone has their limit. I have a Brno 602 in 458 Lott, I can shoot my 416 better than the big Brno,so unless I master the Lott, I’m sticking with the 416.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

And then there's the 404 Jeffery to consider. It can belch magical "Goldilocks" 400 gr bullets without sending the shooter to an orthopedic ward. Mine weighs ten pounds and recoil from loads with those bullets is quite manageable (though by no means negligible). Best part is it only cost me $2K to build. Saved a couple thousand to finance another safari. Not a work of art but not too hard on the eyes either.

 

[K E Johnson]

Too bad I have to live in the real world without “magical Goldilocks bullets”.
Physics and rifle fit is what contributes to felt recoil.

I am still waiting to see my .404 Jeffery completed. Components for the .404 come at a premium and availability is low compared to other calibers.
Curious as to what the round count is on your .404?

It’s a very very special world you live in @Ontario Hunter. I am always amazed at how you can turn any thread to being about you.

 

[Ruraldoc]

I do not think the 416 shoots magic bullets but 400 grain bullets of 40-42 caliber do have a great reputation.

I am of course envious of any man with a good 404 and the ammo, bullets and brass to keep it going.

I also have a 450/400 that fits into the same category.

I am thinking my next foray into Cape Buffalo/plains game country will involve a scoped M70 in 375 and double in 470.

375 for plains game or a shot at distance at a buffalo, and the 470 as the primary buffalo gun.

I think Goldilocks and the bears would be proud of that pair of rifles.

 

[Beefeater]

I have hunted with Tinie Kok - MJK Safaris- for two years and going on my third. I hold him in very high regard as a ph and know I can count on him when the chips are down. Your assessment of the man and his business is made off information gathered around a campfire and passed on to a neighbour then posted on a forum. I believe your post was made in poor judgement and out of a position of ignorance . I believe an unreserved apology is what a gentleman would offer.

How many times was the poor beast actually hit? I don't think more time at the range would have made any difference. That client was obviously hopeless. Don't blame it on the 375! Maybe a 416 might provide a  slight advantage in the event of a marginally placed first shot, but this guy was clearly incapable of even marginal. After the fourth missed/messed shot the PH should have been doing the right thing for that buffalo and put it down himself. Letting that idiot shoot at it seventeen times is disgraceful. Crap like that gives African hunting a black eye. I think at least a reprimand from the association was in order. I know I wouldn't hunt with that outfit.

 

[Ruraldoc]

The 17 shot adventure did not take place with Tinie Kok, not sure how anyone came away with that conclusion.

My neighbor hunted with Tinie’s outfit this September. It was his second hunt with them. He holds them in the highest regard.

On the first hunt he killed a bull elephant with a single shot from his 416 as well as plains game.

Just recently he killed a pair of cape buffalo bulls with same M70 in 416.

He came home and told me that Tinie had purchased a M70 in 416 of his own to offer as a loaner rifle because of the very good results he had seen with it.

I will recheck and verify these facts. I have not personally met Tinie, but I did spend a few days hunting with a couple of his associates, Lin Stanton and his PH Chap.

Should I discover that I have conveyed any incorrect information, I will certainly post a correction here.