Game ranch vs. open land prices

[RickP]

As a person who has been to Africa only once, let me throw my two cents in.

I completely understand Torqued's concerns and really had the same before I left.

One of the first things I did was go to map of the area I hunt here in the states and then draw somewhat of a line around the areas that I actually hunt. I then determined acreage. Though I had access to millions of acres (literally), I really only hunted on about 1,800. That total was more than enough for me to hunt on foot every day for a deer season. For elk it would be much larger.

In South Africa, I hunted on a total of three different ranches, all behind high fence. The first two ranches were of approximately 2,000 acres each, while the third was much larger of unknown size. The two smaller ranches had deep ravines and heavy brush throughout. The 2,000 acres "felt" much larger than it actually was. I am sure that some of the game movement was influenced by the fences but certainly not all of it was.

The topic of game movement came up with my PH (member here). He told me that the kudu will clear the fences from time to time. The warthogs are continually burrowing holes under the wire and are not influenced in any way. I personally watched a beautiful bushbuck go under the wires as it travelled its daily route. The duiker apparently does the same. I heard further stories of other animals such as an eland going over the top!

Your observations mirror mine. I've been twice to RSA, once in the Free State and once in the Eastern Cape. The smallest property hunted in the Free State was 5000 acres and the largest was on the Sandvelt Reserve encompassing 60,000 acres (some say 100,000). Sure it was easier to spot game on the fairly flat ground but that also made *you* easier to spot by the game.

In the Eastern Cape, we hunted several 10,000+ acre properties. Given the steeply hilly terrain (or mountains to the residents) there, you'd only see a fraction of the property if you attempted to walk the area. Spot and stalk saves the legs though I my knees, tendons, and associated muscles were sore for weeks after returning home. One stalk for my mountain reedbuck had us walking 3.5 miles and had dropped 1500 ft. in elevation, with ups and downs in between.

Like you, I have no reservations about hunting high fence areas either.

 

[Torqued]

As I said before it is a personal thing. Fair chase to me means free ranging animals that are not confined to any area no matter how large or small. If I were to compare definitions it would be more on the standards of Boone and Crockett Club vs. SCI. I also want to hunt only those animals that are wild born in native habitat and not part of a breeding program. Once again just my personal preference. When it comes to plains game I have no particular species to pursue as I have never hunted any of them.

 

[HuntingGold]

Believe it or not, my thoughts mirror yours very closely.
I did a hell of a lot of research before going on my trip. I gave up a Dall sheep hunt for one (me) to hunt multiple species with two of my daughters. I did not give the Dall sheep hunt lightly. As a former wildlife biologist, I wanted game that was indigenous to the area that I hunted and that is what I did. For my daughters, I did not mind so much what they hunted.

If a duiker can slide through a fence as quickly and easily as negotiating any other feature in their habitat... what difference does the fence make?

If a white-tail has a home range of one to two square miles and the fence is around 100 square miles... what difference does it make? Over an evolutionary period it would make a difference; but for the purposes of a hunt?

I have a buddy that has exclusive access to an island in the middle of a lake for hunting deer. There are no fences on the island and the island is about a square mile (640 acres). He ROUTINELY comes back empty handed. Those sneaky black-tail run circles around him. Is he hunting fair chase or not?

As for "wild born," you may wish to ask your PH about what is going on with his particular property. Again, prior to my first hunt, I was concerned about any "canned hunt" scenarios as that is absolutely not what I wanted.

I think you might be dealing with some biases that are unfounded. If you are in the states, as am I, it is easy to imagine the worst of scenarios. I can assure you that many of your fears are unfounded. There are bad outfitters out there that would turn your fears into a reality. This is a good place to sort that out as there are some fine outfitters on here.

On another note:
The bushbuck on the ranch (s) I hunted had a small home range (and clearly could go through or under fences). They were as sneaky as any black-tail I have ever hunted. If you have hunted (or ever wanted to hunt) Coues or black-tail, I think you would enjoy that hunt.

 

[spike.t]

As I said before it is a personal thing. Fair chase to me means free ranging animals that are not confined to any area no matter how large or small. If I were to compare definitions it would be more on the standards of Boone and Crockett Club vs. SCI. I also want to hunt only those animals that are wild born in native habitat and not part of a breeding program. Once again just my personal preference. When it comes to plains game I have no particular species to pursue as I have never hunted any of them.

torqued this subject has been gone over plenty of times on here and i would imagine other forums/sites.....from the info in your post here you need to check out tanzania, mozambique,namibia (govnt concessions/ council cooperatives, cameroon, etc where there are big govnt areas. but please be grateful that there are high fenced game ranches, private reserves and conservancies where people have invested large amounts of money and effort in providing enviroments where wildlife is being reestablished or thriving now, so you and others in the future can have a place to hunt these animals, when in the not so distant future most of the large tracts of govnt owned land have been given to or taken over by a rapidly growing land hungry population, and dont exist for you to hunt without a fence.......regards mike

 

[billc]

I think a point that is being missed is.That at sometime the free range area runs into a fence were the so called free range area stops.So is the land were the owner did not put up the fence free range but the guy who did not free range now.Some may have only cattle fence but a fence that could change what a animals does when he runs into that fence.SA has become mostly a fenced country for hunting.There is more so called free range in namibia but they have fence to and more growing as guys need to control animals they are trying to add to there land.I started with the idea of all fence was bad but after hunting there it is a little factor if you pick the right place to hunt.But each there own and its your money so you get to pick in the end.Have a great hunt were ever you go.

 

[sestoppelman]

My first two hunts in Africa were in unfenced wild areas of Tanzania and Botswana. I too was concerned about fences when I went on my first ranch hunt in Zim in '96 where we did see and travel thru, around, under and over lots of fences, gates etc. I think the reality is, that the fences are more of an aesthetic nuisance than any real hindrance to game movement, even fairly high fences. I have seen kudu and eland jump over a 6 ft fence with ease and watched a big sable bull crawl under a fence! Some of my my most challenging and not always successful hunts for plains game have been on fenced properties. Now if the mere sight of fences or knowledge of proximity is too much for a hunter, they should be avoided and the hunt taken on more expensive wild, concessions.

 

[Torqued]

Thanks again for all the info. It has been enlightening to say the least. It is good to hear the positive support in regards to high fence game ranches and how they contribute to the population of the game animals.

 

[enysse]

If there were no fences, there would be only 1/8 of what the total animals there are right now...and that is probably optimistic.

Look at Kenya, they stopped hunting to save the animals, it does not remotely resemble the late 60s or early 70s...black rhino were on every license back then

 

[Norwegianwoods]

If there were no fences, there would be only 1/8 of what the total animals there are right now...and that is probably optimistic.

Look at Kenya, they stopped hunting to save the animals, it does not remotely resemble the late 60s or early 70s...black rhino were on every license back then

I think you are very optimistic saying it would be as much as 1/8 left.

 

[Diamondhitch]

I think you are very optimistic saying it would be as much as 1/8 left.

x3 $$$ have certainly been the driving force in South Africas (among others) game population recoveries.

 

[1Mzungu]

Torqued

I understand your concern about high fences. I am of the same mind as you. A high fence is a high fence...period. If free range and high fence hunts were the same, the game farms wouldn't spend the big bucks to keep their game confined. I've been on both types of hunts. I will never again hunt behind a high fence. I got very, very little satisfaction hunting behind the high fence. My only exception might be a leopard as they can climb over a fence if they want to.

Ask yourself this. Would you want to hunt a Dall sheep in Texas on a 10,000 acre exotic game ranch?

 

[1Mzungu]

Sent you a pm.

 

[jand]

My only exception might be a leopard as they can climb over a fence if they want to.

Actually Leopards more than often crawl under the fence , usually where warthogs have already made a hole to cross. But then again so do Bushpig , Duiker , steenbuck , and wild lions , given the chance. But that has nothing to do with the thread. just an observation.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Torqued

I understand your concern about high fences. I am of the same mind as you. A high fence is a high fence...period. If free range and high fence hunts were the same, the game farms wouldn't spend the big bucks to keep their game confined. I've been on both types of hunts. I will never again hunt behind a high fence. I got very, very little satisfaction hunting behind the high fence. My only exception might be a leopard as they can climb over a fence if they want to.

Ask yourself this. Would you want to hunt a Dall sheep in Texas on a 10,000 acre exotic game ranch?

Dall Sheep behind a fence on a 20,000 Hectare property in Yukon might be a more applicable comparison!

It is a property issue. Without the fence, you do not own the animals.
Don't do a "Boma" hunt. I would not be pleased with that either.


What did you hunt behind a high fence?
Where did you hunt behind a high fence?
How large was the property?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

1Mzungu welcome to the forum sorry I missed your first post, please share your experiences it could help other hunters, and possibly prevent them from having the same experiences you had..

I can guarantee you that your experience could hardly be considered as the norm.

My best always

 

[1Mzungu]

My first hunt was in SA, eastern cape region. I would rather not get into specifics or name the outfitter but the whole experience was a real let down. Shooting game behind a fence gave me no thrill whatsoever. Last year I hunted in Namibia for free range animals and we had an absolutely great time. I got lucky and killed a 58" kudu the last 5 minutes of the last evening of the hunt. I would easily have gone home without a kudu and been just as satisfied knowing that I had been on a real hunt...fair chase.

Many Africans just don't understand the true meaning of fair chase that us Americans and Canadians grew up with and value so dearly.
Is it fair chase to shoot an animal in my fenced in backyard?...no?
Would it help if I let him run around in my 40 acre pasture?...no?
How about if I plant a tree for him to hide behind?...no?
How big do I have to make his fence before it's fair chase?

Just sayin'.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I am terribly sorry that you had such a bad experience if I had more detail I would tell you exactly why... But we all share what we want in the end, and that's fine...
So in short I am forced to draw my own conclusions...

With this been said IMO Mzungu, your statement loses all validity, for one, furthermore the gross generalization as far as fenced back yards go is somewhat of a shock, to say the least........you had a bad safari yes, 2 reasons for this IMO.

1.your criteria for picking a suitable outfitter was wrong...most likely due to it being your first trip, and you only found this particular site afterwards,..and simply did not know which questions to ask to receive replies... To ensure that would receive the safari of your dreams.

2.because of 1. You have the feelings you currently have.

I also believe you are seriously generalizing by taking our version of fair chase or ETHICS for that matter into question we have as strong a hunting tradition as anywhere on this planet and most this particular African and many other share this not so "UNIQUE" ideal..

Unfortunately greed is in all African and all hunting industries world wide, and you have fallen victim to that...

Once again one swallow does not make a summer. One bad safari on a not very large and very commercialized property cannot condemn an industry and a country at the FORE FRONT OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION GLOBALLY.

My best always

 

[billc]

My answer would be depends on how big your yard is if it would be fair or not.I know a few people with backyards I would love to hunt and totally would say it would be fair chase.Common senses tells us 40 acres with one tree is not fair chase.I wonder if your 58" kudu was at the end of the free range area you hunted and heading to the neighbors fence that would of stopped him if that would count as fair or not.Most land has fence somewhere even if the landowner did not put it up.I think your painting everyone with the same brush which is far from fair.

 

[BRICKBURN]

My first hunt was in SA, eastern cape region. I would rather not get into specifics or name the outfitter but the whole experience was a real let down.

Again, sad news. But it can happen.

So, how big was this fenced property you hunted?
(Specifics are exactly what allows other hunters to determine the basis of your concern and learn from it.)

Shooting game behind a fence gave me no thrill whatsoever. Last year I hunted in Namibia for free range animals and we had an absolutely great time. I got lucky and killed a 58" kudu the last 5 minutes of the last evening of the hunt. I would easily have gone home without a kudu and been just as satisfied knowing that I had been on a real hunt...fair chase.

Congratulations on your Kudu.

Many Africans just don't understand the true meaning of fair chase that us Americans and Canadians grew up with and value so dearly.
......

In fact many do.
However, If you want to hunt in another country perhaps you need to address THEIR reality!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

......

I am terribly sorry that you had such a bad experience if I had more detail I would tell you exactly why... But we all share what we want in the end, and that's fine...
So in short I am forced to draw my own conclusions...

With this been said IMO Mzungu, your statement loses all validity, for one, furthermore the gross generalization as far as fenced back yards go is somewhat of a shock, to say the least........you had a bad safari yes, 2 reasons for this IMO.

1.your criteria for picking a suitable outfitter was wrong...most likely due to it being your first trip, and you only found this particular site afterwards,..and simply did not know which questions to ask to receive replies... To ensure that would receive the safari of your dreams.

2.because of 1. You have the feelings you currently have.

I also believe you are seriously generalizing by taking our version of fair chase or ETHICS for that matter into question we have as strong a hunting tradition as anywhere on this planet and most this particular African and many other share this not so "UNIQUE" ideal..

Unfortunately greed is in all African and all hunting industries world wide, and you have fallen victim to that...

Once again one swallow does not make a summer. One bad safari on a not very large and very commercialized property cannot condemn an industry and a country at the FORE FRONT OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION GLOBALLY.

My best always