Game ranch vs. open land prices

[1Mzungu]

billc
I'm not painting anyone with a brush. I'm talking about the practice of high fences. If you like hunting behind an 8' fence, fine, I'm, not and I believe that was what torqued is trying to say as well. Like torqued, I also believe in Boone & Crockett's definition of fair chase. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think I'll change your mind and you'll sure not change mine.

And no my kudu was not up against a fence, he had plenty of room to walk (100,000 acres). The next 2 properties past him were also unfenced, don't know beyond that.

 

[Diamondhitch]

I am terribly sorry that you had such a bad experience if I had more detail I would tell you exactly why... But we all share what we want in the end, and that's fine...
So in short I am forced to draw my own conclusions...

With this been said IMO Mzungu, your statement loses all validity, for one, furthermore the gross generalization as far as fenced back yards go is somewhat of a shock, to say the least........you had a bad safari yes, 2 reasons for this IMO.

1.your criteria for picking a suitable outfitter was wrong...most likely due to it being your first trip, and you only found this particular site afterwards,..and simply did not know which questions to ask to receive replies... To ensure that would receive the safari of your dreams.

2.because of 1. You have the feelings you currently have.

I also believe you are seriously generalizing by taking our version of fair chase or ETHICS for that matter into question we have as strong a hunting tradition as anywhere on this planet and most this particular African and many other share this not so "UNIQUE" ideal..

Unfortunately greed is in all African and all hunting industries world wide, and you have fallen victim to that...

Once again one swallow does not make a summer. One bad safari on a not very large and very commercialized property cannot condemn an industry and a country at the FORE FRONT OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION GLOBALLY.

My best always

Certainly there are those out there who are a thorn in both hunters and legitimate outfitters sides, that happens one way or another all around the world. It is unfortunate when it happens and doubly when it jades someone against the industry as a whole.

I agree Jaco, South Africa is certainly on the forefront of wildlife conservation.

 

[billc]

I was meaning your painting all high fence hunting with the same brush.We can see we both just think different on the subject and that what makes this site so good.Everyone can have there say and get along.So now just post some pic's of that big kudu and We will be friends who just think different on the subject.lol

 

[1Mzungu]

Look, this torqued guy was just looking for an unfenced hunt and everyone felt the need to convince him otherwise. He's not interested in it but you're not listening to him. I've been told I did a poor job of choosing an outfitter for my first hunt. That's true. I did not make the same mistake twice as my second hunt was great. I just thought I'd let him know that he should do what he feels is best for him. For whatever reason, some feel the need to change his mind (and mine). And for the few here that feel I'm some sassy American that wants to take a poke at you, don't. I don't agree with the high fences in Texas either and neither does Boone & Crockett.

My Namibian outfitter laid out the rules before the hunt, one of which was absolutely no shooting from the truck. He was devoted to us having a true hunting experience and had his own fair chase beliefs.

I use to know an outfitter from SA that lived in the U.S. for awhile. He was a great guy, lots of fun to be around. He came up to me one day and asked why Americans opposed high fences. Out of respect I had never said anything to him about my beliefs regarding high fences as I knew his operations used them. Apparently he'd had some push back from potential clients who were also fair chasers such as myself. Like you guys on this site, he didn't understand it and I couldn't explain it to him.

 

[1Mzungu]

Billc

I can try to post it but I don't know if I'm savvy enough.

 

[billc]

I had the same problem with posting pic's to.I learn in time how to do it also with some help from guys on here.I am looking for a hunt in namibia for the future.If you dont mind sharing who did you hunt with and what did you take there.

 

[firehuntfish]

Torqued

I understand your concern about high fences. I am of the same mind as you. A high fence is a high fence...period. If free range and high fence hunts were the same, the game farms wouldn't spend the big bucks to keep their game confined. I've been on both types of hunts. I will never again hunt behind a high fence. I got very, very little satisfaction hunting behind the high fence. My only exception might be a leopard as they can climb over a fence if they want to.

Ask yourself this. Would you want to hunt a Dall sheep in Texas on a 10,000 acre exotic game ranch?

1Mzungu,

I respect your right to voice your personal opinon on high fence hunting, but I must agree with Jaco Strauss and others here that all high fence hunting experiences are NOT created equal...I does sound a bit that you are implying a generalization based on one personal unenjoyable experience.

I don't think it's reliable utilize any book definition of a fair chase hunt as it relates to a high fenced property like so many representative of South Africa. There are a great many factors that have to be considered including the property size, configuration, terrain, how the game is managed and propogated, etc... I have been fortunate enough now to have hunted Africa 6 times in the last 13 years. I have hunted 3 countries and 4 of the South African provinces. I have hunted free range, free roaming, low fence, and high fence properties. It's been my experience that the animals on quality concessions are just as wild, wary, and challenging as any of the "wild" game that I have encountered in low fence or no fence areas. It really does depend on all of the aforementioned factors. I don't think it's fair to genralize that a fair chase experience is not obtainable on a high fence property.... In fact, on many occassions, I have hunted certain specific animals for days upon days on various high fence concessions without ever encountering them. Conversely, on free roaming properties, I have seen the same group of cape buffalo and prides of lions in the exact same spots day after day. Based on one experience, without knowing better, I guess one could generalize that free range cape buffalo and lions are not particularly challenging to hunt....

There are some excellent outfitters in RSA providing high-quality, rewarding safaris at very affordable prices. Making an implication that these type of hunts are lesser experiences is definitely doing a disservice to others who might be looking for a first African safari....

 

[1Mzungu]

billc

sent you an email

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I am inviting you to Kwalata for a week, come and hunt with me...if your feelings are the same it's free, if I have converted you, I will be charging brochure rates available on our website, and paying you a small commission for sending all your friends my way.....

This is the only way for us to prove our point.... (Make sure to bring two pairs of well broken in hunting boots)

I don't believe your statements to be fair and by no means represent the entire industry.

My best always

 

[SafariA]

Very good challenge Jaco !!!! That should settle it once and for all !

 

[billc]

Dam good offer jaco.I would even take you up on that one why just the new guy.lol As long as when you ask me if the hunt was good or not I could be looking the other way. Then when I said no it sucked but with a smile on my face you could not see it.lol

 

[Takeri Reserve Zambia]

Jaco excellent offer and challenge . cheers mike :beer:

 

[BRICKBURN]

I am inviting you to Kwalata for a week, come and hunt with me...if your feelings are the same it's free, if I have converted you, I will be charging brochure rates available on our website, and paying you a small commission for sending all your friends my way.....

This is the only way for us to prove our point.... (Make sure to bring two pairs of well broken in hunting boots)

I don't believe your statements to be fair and by no means represent the entire industry.

My best always

I hate that about you. Always putting your money where your mouth is. Damn.

On a personal note, I have capitulated entirely on this fence thing and need to check Kwalata Wilderness out for compliance with my ethics. Please contact me with appropriate dates so I can see if you can bring me back into the hunting fold!

Jaco excellent offer and challenge . cheers mike :beer:

I was never more certain about Zambia and fenced properties along rivers than I am now. I am expecting you as an honourable owner to offer the same challenge. I'll await your PM with dates.

 

[Wheels]

My first hunt was in SA, eastern cape region. I would rather not get into specifics or name the outfitter but the whole experience was a real let down. Shooting game behind a fence gave me no thrill whatsoever. Last year I hunted in Namibia for free range animals and we had an absolutely great time. I got lucky and killed a 58" kudu the last 5 minutes of the last evening of the hunt. I would easily have gone home without a kudu and been just as satisfied knowing that I had been on a real hunt...fair chase.

Many Africans just don't understand the true meaning of fair chase that us Americans and Canadians grew up with and value so dearly.
Is it fair chase to shoot an animal in my fenced in backyard?...no?
Would it help if I let him run around in my 40 acre pasture?...no?
How about if I plant a tree for him to hide behind?...no?
How big do I have to make his fence before it's fair chase?

Just sayin'.

1Mzungu,

The great thing about Africa is you can hunt where you want. High, low or no fence. I'm glad you found what you were looking for on your second hunt and didn't let the first hunt turn you off of Africa.

Jaco's offer sounds pretty tempting though.

All the best.

 

[Diamondhitch]

Dam good offer jaco.I would even take you up on that one why just the new guy.lol As long as when you ask me if the hunt was good or not I could be looking the other way. Then when I said no it sucked but with a smile on my face you could not see it.lol

Maybe if we said all dip/pack and ship companies were crooks we could get that free too!!!

 

[Takeri Reserve Zambia]

I hate that about you. Always putting your money where your mouth is. Damn.

On a personal note, I have capitulated entirely on this fence thing and need to check Kwalata Wilderness out for compliance with my ethics. Please contact me with appropriate dates so I can see if you can bring me back into the hunting fold!




I was never more certain about Zambia and fenced properties along rivers than I am now. I am expecting you as an honourable owner to offer the same challenge. I'll await your PM with dates.

wayne just as well you have an embarassment smiley there or i would think you were serious and would have had to make you an offer, but as this is such a bare faced attempt at conning us i will have to resist my natural feelings of kindness and compassion in this case....:whistling::tongue::biggrin2:

 

[enysse]

I appreciate all the fences, with a growing population, good fences make good neighbors. The wildlife has definitely benefited!!! I think proper research can find the right hunt for anyone. Be prepared to pay for that opportunity.

I remember growing up and thinking the West was wild and untamed in the wilderness areas, then I grew up to reality. Oh there is wilderness still but plenty of fences too, to mark boundaries.

 

[BRICKBURN]

wayne............i will have to resist my natural feelings of kindness and compassion in this case...

Now, that is funny.

 

[Primo661]

1Mzungu,

I respect your right to voice your personal opinon on high fence hunting, but I must agree with Jaco Strauss and others here that all high fence hunting experiences are NOT created equal..

I'm fairly green to this whole concept but this is how I see it, let me know if I have it all wrong?

To approach this topic from the other side, not all low fence or no fench hunting is created equal. One of my family farms in kwaZulu Natal is a no fence type farm. It is a commercial sugar farm with a vein of natural veld running down one of the valleys, this extends across the river onto two neighbouring farms and the veld on all three farms is maybe 500 acres at most. When my Grandfather bought the farm reedbuck, duiker, bushbuck and oribi were resident, he reintroduced impala onto the property and since then, nyala, eland, warthog and bushpig have migrated into the property as well from nearby game farms. By 'American' industry standards, this is free range and fair chase hunting, the entire district is made up of unfenced commercial cane farms so the argument can't really be made that it is in some sense fenced either. But much of it is in sight of roads and farm buildings and all of it is in sight of sugar cane plantations. Infact, these plantations might also be considered fair chase hunting areas by the 'American' idea of fair chase, but is it? On these unfenced farms, I have chased many wily Roland Ward trophies for multiple seasons and they never moved on - even though they found it easy enough to evade me on any one day(fair chase). The impala herd on the property has never really moved off that one strip of veld and I can guarantee you one particular Roland Ward ram who has just been replaced as the herd ram if you turn up and you have two hours to find him(not readily considered fair chase). I know where a bachelor ram herd hangs out, just like I know where one massive warthog boar will wallow every day(same as above). You are guaranteed one particular eland bull in half a day if you put the leg work in(same as above). All of these animals though are not at all impeded from evading me should they sense my presence(again, free chase). I would consider that a 10 000 ha high fenced conservancy is to a greater degree subscribing to fair chase principles than those properties do but they tick all the boxes on paper as far as I can understand.

 

[enysse]

Primo661, your place is fair chase by definition. Like you said animals hang out in certain places or habitat and that is where they will be found, it's like that wherever you hunt in the world. Potentially anywhere there are no fences, you are going to find game by water, best food source, good cover...etc, so yes it narrows where you hunt.

The point I was making with fences, landowners are putting in lot of money to develop water, food, cover...let animals grow old. Yes, some animals come and go through the fence but they maintain a viable hunting property. Where would all the animals could go if they could go anywhere, what would prevent them from be poached, shot undescriminately.