Further evidence of the decline of the 450/400 3"?

[rookhawk]

Not sure why you refer to every shitty PH rifle that you have seen.....
All experienced dg PH I know have well used reliable rifles with ammo that works....in most cases self loaded.....

Now inexperienced "Need for speed" clients are a totally different thing.....

Sh&tty rifle definition: due to excess wear and tear, lack of cleaning, and overpressure loads they have a number of overt and latent defects. Many of these are accelerated wear defects due to extreme performance hand loads. Of particularly frequent occurrence are trashed 458 Winmags that are often loaded way past traditional performance specs in a desire to get closer to Lott functional levels in a gun that was not engineered for the vastly increased recoil.

 

[IvW]

458 WM is a very shit cartridge for DG.....

An experienced dg ph would clean his rifle and use heavy for caliber bullets trotting along at 2200 to 2400 fps with the right bullet....

458 WM can never achieve this.....

Any experience off ph using 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeff in bolts with the same issue?

I cannot see an experienced dg ph who does not clean his rifle and ensure it is working 100%....neither do I know any.....

 

[rookhawk]

458 WM is a very shit cartridge for DG.....

An experienced dg ph would clean his rifle and use heavy for caliber bullets trotting along at 2200 to 2400 fps with the right bullet....

458 WM can never achieve this.....

Any experience off ph using 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeff in bolts with the same issue?

I cannot see an experienced dg ph who does not clean his rifle and ensure it is working 100%....neither do I know any.....

There are many PHs that can only afford 458s. In my experience, its the most common caliber in the bush. Some PHs do not believe in oiling their guns because they believe it attracts dust.

Generally if a PH can afford a modern 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs, or 500 Jeff they also can afford proper ammunition and look after their things. The frequency of finding such calibers isn't particularly common in countries I hunt. (My PH uses a 500 Jeff, but he has his act together which is why he's my PH)

 

[IvW]

There are many PHs that can only afford 458s. In my experience, its the most common caliber in the bush. Some PHs do not believe in oiling their guns because they believe it attracts dust.

Generally if a PH can afford a modern 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs, or 500 Jeff they also can afford proper ammunition and look after their things. The frequency of finding such calibers isn't particularly common in countries I hunt. (My PH uses a 500 Jeff, but he has his act together which is why he's my PH)

I fail to see the cost differance between a 458 WM and a 458 Lott. 458 Lott is by far the most common. 458 Lott is not modern.

Oiling a gun and keeping it clean is not the same thing...

So how many of these anti oiling ph you hunted with before you found the 500 Jeff one?

Way to much generalisation.....

 

[hoytcanon]

Oh, boy... need a shovel to wade through this thread.

 

[IvW]

Safari and outdoor currently only have 1 supplier of 458 WM in stock and 4 458 Lott in stock......
The 458 WM are TBBC claw so I am surprised they are still in stock......

 

[rookhawk]

I fail to see the cost differance between a 458 WM and a 458 Lott. 458 Lott is by far the most common. 458 Lott is not modern.

Oiling a gun and keeping it clean is not the same thing...

So how many of these anti oiling ph you hunted with before you found the 500 Jeff one?

Way to much generalisation.....

You're quoting RSA details, an somewhat functional economy with actual gun stores. Go North of your borders and you'll find the common weapons are decades old FNs, winchesters, sporterized mausers, very old CZs, etc.

3 Anti-oiling PHs before I found a good one.

458 Lott is modern. I think it was standardized in 1989 and rifles started coming into commonality by the late 1990s?

 

[IvW]

Many ZIM ph get ammo from RSA....yes they have more issues with rifles but they look after them the ones I have dealt with in any case......

3 DG ph who never looked after there rifles and over charged their ammo.....must be some record ..

 

[Pondoro]

There is some truth in that modern handloaders take it too far to gain velocity..

All the Nitro Express ammunition velocities produced by Kynoch were shot with 28" barrels so most gave barely 2000fps..in production rifles..

Carl Labuschagne, an SA PH, cronoed his old Kynoch ammo in .577NE to only 1890fps in his double..

 

[IvW]

There is some truth in that modern handloaders take it too far to gain velocity..

All the Nitro Express ammunition velocities produced by Kynoch were shot with 28" barrels so most gave barely 2000fps..in production rifles..

Carl Labuschagne, a SA PH, cronoed his old Kynoch ammo in .577NE to only 1890fps in his double..

I know no DG PH using 458WM that never cleans or oils it and overloads his 458WM to the state that it becomes a rattle box.....north of the Limpopo.....or south.....

I handload all my own DG ammo...with premium heavy weight bullets.l for the last 33 years.....the sweet spot has always been 2300fps for me give or take 100fps.....thats why I prefer bolt actiins.

Each can choose but if you have a recipe that works stick to it.

 

[rookhawk]

I know no DG PH using 458WM that never cleans or oils it and overloads his 458WM to the state that it becomes a rattle box.....north of the Limpopo.....or south.....

I handload all my own DG ammo...with premium heavy weight bullets.l for the last 33 years.....the sweet spot has always been 2300fps for me give or take 100fps.....thats why I prefer bolt actiins.

Each can choose but if you have a recipe that works stick to it.

Another serious issue I've seen that is quite dangerous is repeated reloading of 375HH parent brass. (e.g. in 458WM). They are super overloaded, and then resized numerous times. As you may be aware, they headspace on the belt so the cartridges continue to bloat bigger, bigger, bigger in the case body if reloaded often.

There is a special die in the States that maintains the body size of belted magnum brass, but they don't have them in Africa.

It all points to a general sentiment about Zimbabwean PHs. They know a tremendous amount about hunting, but they really don't know much about reloading since its a nearly banned activity. They have a couple of people they rely upon for it, and I can assure you the "professional loaders" are far from professional. (e.g. fresh loads but the cases are completely tarnished and bloated)

 

[Philip Glass]

Philip and I have had this conversation and he is a friend…I was going to answer for him but knew he would articulate better than me. He and many others see the professional reloading companies of which only know of as 3 are the best of both worlds. As for me while I would never consider myself a professional have reloaded for over 20 years which only means “@philip glass tolerates me”. lol!!!!

Love you bro. Warts and all!

 

[Philip Glass]

Amen @Philip Glass . The DG rifle problems are almost all caused by uninformed enthusiasts. Reading Pondoro Taylor’s book is one of the best longitudinal studies on Big game killing that ever existed. What kills big game? 40 caliber and up bullets hitting an animal at 1900fps.

Every sh&tty PH rifle that I’ve seen destroyed all had the same issues. Hobbiests eeking out more velocity and pressure thinking that they need 2250-2650 FPS. Not true. They then cite that the original loads were 2250FPS which was also not true. (Real world, most of them were 2050-2075fps at the muzzle).

Everybody wants to be Roy Weatherby it seems.

Agreed

 

[Tradmark]

I have a 3 year old verney carron 450-400 3” and it is absolutely wonderfully accurate with hornady ammo. The solids work well enough on the buffalo i have shot and the newer bonded softs open on whitetails and seem to hold together well enough and penetrated good on the test shots on the buff i took after killing with solids. Also got a ruger no1 in the ole 450-400. Imminently useable cartridge.


By far more impressive that the raking shot a ph took on my first cape buff i took with a 454 casull revolver. Bull was running quartering away after i out a 325 gr aframe thru the shoulders and he hit it behind the ribs in the way up to the offside shoulder. Buff went about 200 yards and died. He smugly let me know i should be glad that he used a real gun on the ole buff. Upon gutting and skinning, his no name soft point came completely apart and the furthest any of the bullet went in was about 1 foot into the guts. That said, my 45 cal 325gr aframe traveling around mid 1500’s fps went thru the shoulders into the offside hide. I then told him what i believe to be true, more important than a certain cartridge or velocity window to even have anything to do with anything one needs a good bullet. Id say roughly 40% of the assistant ph’s ive hunted with dont know what a good bullet is and what a bad one is